Firstborn changes we'd like to see in the next Codex Space Marines

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah we can justify lots of factions having their own rules for Transhuman Physiology. Chaos get surges of Warp Power, so grant the Strategum to every Chaos Faction. Eldar get Runes of Warding cast on them, so they can protect any unit. Tau have a special shield deploy by Drones.

Etc etc.

Just drop it if it doesn't bring anything we need to the table. It's clunky anyway. Only 1 unit can use Transhuman Physiology at a time? So what, the others forget how to have their superior genetics?

[Kallas]

36 minutes ago, phandaal said:

Space Marines should just be Space Marines, at least from a rules standpoint. Then we can start reducing some of the bloat and let the new models be the range refresh they always should have been.

  Yeah. New sculpts of existing models still sell well, because they look good. Take the Mk VI Beakies as a prime example: I'm sure there are plenty of folks who are grabbing a bunch for their 40k armies, as they just look great (I know one Raven Guard player personally who is!)

The whole delineation of Firstborn/Primaris created so much more friction than was necessary. But, it's what we have now, so 

33 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Just drop it if it doesn't bring anything we need to the table. It's clunky anyway. Only 1 unit can use Transhuman Physiology at a time? So what, the others forget how to have their superior genetics?

Yup, it's pretty stupid. It's why I seriously dislike the Wargear stratagems - oh, one of my vehicles used their smoke launchers and now none of the others can...for some reason?

A friend of mine had a suggestion though, which is based on the distinction of Stratagem categories that already exist (Wargear, Strategic Ploy, Epic Deed, and Requisition):

1. Wargear Stratagems cost whatever CP, but can be used any number of times per phase (so, Smoke Launchers could be used for 1CP per unit in a single phase, as long as you have CP to spend) - this could easily apply to almost every Wargear Stratagem: Grav Pulse, Tremor Shells, even Hellfire Shells/Flakk Missiles. Could it be powerful? Yes, but with the reduced access to large amounts of CP, it makes it a significant choice to use them vs other Stratagems and would distinguish some powerful pieces of equipment from more esoteric battle tactics, which is kind of what should be the distinction.
2. More Stratagems (likely Strategic Ploys) could cost 0 CP, which would mean that they are a slight boost to a unit but then are limited by the once-per-phase restriction. These could be things like Terror Troops or Guerilla Tactics - these are ok Stratagems for 0 CP, and by limiting them to once-per-phase they make the units that can access them more interesting and it could make army building more varied: do you take many Phobos units to plentiful options of who to use Guerilla Tactics on? Or do you just sprinkle in one Phobos unit to use GT on and have other units to take advantage of other Strategic Ploys.
3. Other Stratagems remain with a higher cost and the limitation, for the stronger ones (eg, shoot-and-scoot; Veterans of the Long War-esque ones, etc) and for the important pre-game ones like extra Warlord Traits/Relics, and the like.

[phandaal]

43 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Only 1 unit can use Transhuman Physiology at a time? So what, the others forget how to have their superior genetics?

"Mom says it's my turn to activate the Belisarian Furnace."

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

To get rid of THP would be quite controversial - some factions have it bolted on for free. You can use it once per phase for most SM factions… That’s not the end of the world imo. There are other strats like the fore mentioned smoke launcher that would serve the game better being eliminated. Of course if you play primarily FB then THP isn’t really doing anything for you.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Black Blow Fly

[Captain Idaho]

Indeed it's not a priority that's for sure. I guess I'm talking fair weather, multiple changes across the board.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 7/13/2022 at 7:59 PM, Black Blow Fly said:

To get rid of THP would be quite controversial - some factions have it bolted on for free. You can use it once per phase for most SM factions… That’s not the end of the world imo. There are other strats like the fore mentioned smoke launcher that would serve the game better being eliminated. Of course if you play primarily FB then THP isn’t really doing anything for you.

Would it be controversial?

on B&C at least it seems like there’s quite a bit of animosity towards strats in general, so people might not care .

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Hmmmm… how to put this diplomatic like… just because there are a group here in no way represents the vast majority. I hope that make some sense and it’s not meant to slight anyone. Everyone’s opinion is theirs.

[Urkh]

We'll see if the majority likes or hates strategems based on what they do with them in 10th. I'm sure the surveys that went out had a lot of feedback on strats.

[Captain Idaho]

Well that's making a few assumptions:

• A majority of people who are customers of 40K also completed the survey.

• GW will listen to the majority of people in said survey and not just sample what they want for the direction they planned for.

However, I did fill out the survey in the hopes my thoughts on the game I enjoy will be listened to.

Regarding the popularity and sample of people who use the B&C, I often see folk suggest it is a minority of the player base but I actually see this as a little unfair.

The B&C is a cross section of the player base and therefore is fairly representative of it. Maybe not perfect but the opinions, thoughts and memes I see on the B&C are echoed across the multiple Facebook groups I visit, or even the comments sections of YouTubers I watch.

I've definitely seen ideas and feedback on the B&C that have been adopted or adapted in the rules in the past. Which suggests that said ideas have likely been repeated in multiple areas to get the notice of the games developers, or else they've used the forum and taken it on board.

That's not to say I completely disagree with BBF on his posts regarding the feedback of THP. It is very possible the B&C can be a minority on a subject like this, as such things are ever evolving etc.

I also agree that removing THP completely from Marines whilst retaining such things/killing power etc in newer Codex books will be controversial on its own as it is a downgrade to one of the core Primaris units that are competitive in the game - Bladeguard - with Marines not being that competitive otherwise.

For Firstborn, bringing it back around, if it's available for Primaris it would be nice to use it on them, or else give them things that they could use instead.

However that impacts other armies and I'm keen to drop it after an overall rebalanced approach in other ways.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’ve also seen what is discussed here adapted into the rules which overall is great - I think an example is relic terminators… we lost some things but overall the end result is better.

[The Emperors Champion22]

On 7/4/2022 at 12:49 PM, Kallas said:

Tacticus, the same armour as Intercessors, could be intended as TEQ, really?? Aggressors/Gravis is far more applicable as a TEQ, and I think you know full well that that's the case. I have no idea how you can pose that as a point with a straight face.

Also, nerfing Bladeguard is kind of irrelevant: they can be made appropriately costed for their stats - they're currently 35pts/model; they could easily drop to 28pts/model or something to compensate and remain a good unit. They don't need 3W to be a strong melee unit, but with 3W they are inconsistent.

imo any veteran unit should be 3W, like the chosen are now. veterans are supposed to be the best of the best, the bridge between regular units and characters. i think an extra wound helps show that.

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, The Emperors Champion22 said:

imo any veteran unit should be 3W, like the chosen are now. veterans are supposed to be the best of the best, the bridge between regular units and characters. i think an extra wound helps show that.

Sure ok, let's go with that. Let's be consistent with that 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Vets should also have three base attacks.

[Schlitzaf]

So there is something interesting to note: Chosen DO NOT have more attacks than Legionaires. 

[Kallas]

17 minutes ago, Schlitzaf said:

So there is something interesting to note: Chosen DO NOT have more attacks than Legionaires. 

Legionaries have the same baseline as Veterans. They have functionally the same Attacks (3 vs Veterans' 2+1 Shock Assault), and the same Leadership (8/9 vs a non-Veteran's 7/8)

[Captain Idaho]

Shock Assault can make way for just a flat extra attack I feel. It's just a rule we don't need when we have statlines.

The extra wound for our veterans would be great. 3 wounds on Vanguard with Jump Packs will be great but with Sternguard getting 3 wounds and then maybe a boost to their Bolters (Master-Crafted works for me) and they'll be great.

[Kallas]

3W Veterans is also power creeping Terminators (and Centurions, if we continue the trend). Not against it entirely, but it does seem to be kind of an odd situation to go for just to justify Bladeguard and Chosen having abnormal Wounds characteristics...

[Schlitzaf]

 What likelt happen is that Marines get 3a, Vets get 3w/3a and “extra” tough Vets get 4w. If this pattern follows. 

[Captain Idaho]

Chaos Terminators didn't go up in wounds following Chosen going up.

To be fair, Firstborn Veterans don't need to go to 3 wounds. Chosen are supposed to be mini-characters anyway. Vanguard are currently quite competitive and Sternguard would do well with the boosts many have suggested here.

******

Here's a thought - the Chaos Terminator Lord went up to 8 wounds. That is nuts! That's 3 wounds higher, well above a Primaris Captain in Gravis Armour!

I have no idea what reflection that'll have on Firstborn but it's interesting eh.

[Medjugorje]

VV would be too strong then but Sternguards need anything to differ - and here would be the perfect way. Make Vet Inercessors, Sword Brethren, Company Vets, VV and Sternguard 3 W.

 

 

[Captain Idaho]

=][= I've removed some posts that were off topic; let's try and keep to the topic in and folks =][= 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[MegaVolt87]

With transhuman, taking it away from firstborn should have been done by just changing the name to the furnace/ Belisarium Furnace if it was going to be a primaris exclusive ability. It needlessly rubbed salt in the wound by taking away strats from firstborn like transhuman, honour the chapter etc. Even if they were not replaced, the strat names should have at a minimum be changed along with the flavour text to respect the firstborn. 

[Captain Idaho]

5 hours ago, MegaVolt87 said:

With transhuman, taking it away from firstborn should have been done by just changing the name to the furnace/ Belisarium Furnace if it was going to be a primaris exclusive ability. It needlessly rubbed salt in the wound by taking away strats from firstborn like transhuman, honour the chapter etc. Even if they were not replaced, the strat names should have at a minimum be changed along with the flavour text to respect the firstborn. 

It's a good point. They should have renamed the Strategums to be more relevant to the Primaris line or kept them universal. 

I don't like the mechanics of Transhuman Physiology as I've mentioned but I would have liked some Strategums to be more wider applicable to all units.

Tactical, Intercessors (not Firstborn but included for completeness sake) and Sternguard for example should have had Masterful Marksmanship (+1 to wound for Bolt weapons) returned. Maybe even Company Veterans, Lieutenants and Captains as well, to simulate the more "line" nature of these units.

Devastator Protocols (I made it up) could work similarly, with it granting perhaps +1 damage to the shooting attacks of Devastators, Hellblasters and Devastator Centurions that wound on a 6+, though that favours volume of fire so perhaps a choice between +1 damage or reroll wounds for S8+ weapons. 

Easy enough to spread the Strategum usage across the Codex, reducing the need for lots of them. This would also grant an improvement to some units that get left behind without making them broken.

[Kallas]

On 7/27/2022 at 4:30 AM, MegaVolt87 said:

With transhuman, taking it away from firstborn should have been done by just changing the name to the furnace/ Belisarium Furnace if it was going to be a primaris exclusive ability. It needlessly rubbed salt in the wound by taking away strats from firstborn like transhuman, honour the chapter etc. Even if they were not replaced, the strat names should have at a minimum be changed along with the flavour text to respect the firstborn. 

Honour the Chapter is the one that really highlights it: used to be any unit could fight twice for, y'know, honour. Now only specifically Assault Intercessors can - not even Assault Marines, not Vanguard Veterans, not Assault Terminators. No, only Assault Intercessors. 

I like the idea of Stratagems in general, and some are really cool - but GW needs to get a handle on what the hell they are. Are they flavourful additions with some useful but relatively limited in-game utility (eg, Guerilla Tactics) or are they just limited resource upgrades (eg, Veterans of the Long War)?

[Slave to Darkness]

On 7/18/2022 at 3:53 PM, The Emperors Champion22 said:

imo any veteran unit should be 3W, like the chosen are now. veterans are supposed to be the best of the best, the bridge between regular units and characters. i think an extra wound helps show that.

My mate is an Afghan veteran, I have never joined the forces, I have a higher pain threshold than he does. Being a vet shouldnt make you tougher, veteran status should be shown in another way, like skills and upgrades, otherwise why do Guard vets not rock 2 wounds?