Guilliman update - changes and fixes we'd like or expect

[Captain Idaho]

The possible changes to Guilliman is something many people will want to discuss and feel strongly about so whilst I planned on making a Special Characters topic discussing updates for all our dudes, this would be a dominant talking point and would merit wider, focused discussion. 

So what would we like or expect to see changed and updated for Guilliman?

I think his stats are fine. I feel his weapons could do with a revamp to be unique (now Abaddon has a sword that is actually functionally the same (actually slightly better) than Guilliman's. I'll start there...

Hand of Dominion

I actually think this weapon functions as the big hitter fine. Damage 4 and S12 is good and I don't think we need to see anything change with it.

The Emperor's Sword

I actually feel this weapon should work in a similar way to the damage of other psykers throughout the game since it is a conduit and representative of the greatest psyker the galaxy has ever known...

It needs to generate Mortal Wounds consistently. Might be over powered but I was thinking of "each hit roll a D6 - on a 2-4 it causes 1 Mortal Wound. On a 5+ D3 Mortal Wounds."

I actually don't think it's that powerful at all as against tougher targets it's better to use the Hand of Dominion. 

A radical variant is 1-3 it does nothing and 4+ causes D3 Mortal Wounds, which mathematically should generate more Mortal Wounds I think. Maybe even make it 3+.

He is a Primarch after all and it is the Emperor's Sword for goodness sake! Wouldn't it be nice to see it a dangerous choice? Now I think about it, each hit causing D3 Mortal Wounds on a 3+ doesn't seem too over the top at all. The D4 of the Hand of Dominion still works out better against Elites, vehicles and monsters, but the sweeping flames give a nice way of providing something different. 

Aura Abilities

Well we all know Guilliman can safely repeat the auras as seen with other high tier characters and we should expect that.

The larger aura that affects all Imperial units I'm indifferent to. I logically should stay but frankly I'm not a fan of reroll auras anyway as a mechanic.

Something better than all these rerolls would be 2-3 Strategums that he can add to an army which are quite powerful. Other ways of building Guilliman into something unique perhaps being a free use of a Battle Tactic or Strategic ploy per turn.

Anyway those are my thoughts on this subject. I'm interested to see what changes other people come up with. 

[justicarius6]

Needs to be made a HQ. There are lots of heavy support units out there that are more than 300pts, it's ridiculous he's still stuck in the same bracket as knights and juiced up other primarchs. Or, here's a thought if there're going to keep him as a LoW then ruddy well make his stats show it. Right now old 'armless would beat him like a red-headed stepchild. He's a primarch afterall.

Re-roll auras are fine, though I do understand the distaste for them in a low-ish model count army every shot counts more. And to boost accuracy/killy power then auras are pretty much all we've got for it right now.

[Cruor Vault]

59 minutes ago, justicarius6 said:

Needs to be made a HQ. There are lots of heavy support units out there that are more than 300pts, it's ridiculous he's still stuck in the same bracket as knights and juiced up other primarchs. Or, here's a thought if there're going to keep him as a LoW then ruddy well make his stats show it. Right now old 'armless would beat him like a red-headed stepchild. He's a primarch afterall.

Re-roll auras are fine, though I do understand the distaste for them in a low-ish model count army every shot counts more. And to boost accuracy/killy power then auras are pretty much all we've got for it right now.

He's fine as a LoW, honestly it's better for us to have him in that slot than anywhere else because then we have space for Librarian + Techmarines plus something else.

Giving him re-roll aura's in line with Abbadon, plus multiple WL traits would be an excellent upgrade.

[UnkyHamHam]

Honestly, he should get all 6 UM Warlord traits. But failing that, maybe just 3 of them like Abby. 

Or maybe he can change his WL trait each command phase to any Ultra trait. 

Also, what about a targeted ability to "cast" an Ultra strat on a unit within 6" for free each turn. 

Reroll auras are nice, but boring. I'd love to see interesting stuff like this more. He's not just a primarch, which in itself should make him absurd, but he's Guilliman! 

[Captain Idaho]

Totally agree! I think we share some sentiments.

Changing Warlord Trait is a solid idea, gives a sort of adaptive taciturn sort of feel. I like the targeted Ultramarines Strategum thing too. With a slight revamp of Ultramarines Strategums it would be really solid and different to much of the stuff GW is producing lately.

Rerolls are so 2020.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

He should have access to them all for sure !!

[Captain Idaho]

The more I think about it the more I really like the idea of allowing Guilliman to grant a single Ultramarines Strategum use for free to a unit within 6". I'd probably go as far as say armywide, since many of the Strategums would be more useful away from Guilliman. 

So yeah, armywide 1 Ultramarines Strategum per turn for free. Then he can just have the modest rerolls aura equivalent to Morvan Vaul and Abaddon (which are the same).

Add to that, perhaps 2 Strategums for Army of the Imperium's that he brings to the table (but not free) to simulate the additional brain power he brings to the battlefield that helps all Imperial armies.

Then finally adds 3 CPs and I think he's got interesting and thematic rules.

[RWJP]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned:

He needs some sort of "Max damage" rule like Abaddon or Ghaz get or a "Half Damage" rule like Morvenn Vahl. Bearing in mind that his armour is literally a giant life-support suit it makes sense that the auto-medicae systems inside it would be capable of helping him withstand damage. I know at the moment he has the ability to get back up the first time he is killed, but replacing that with a "Half Damage" rule would actually make him significantly more resilient. Potentially as he's a Primarch, give him both the halved damage and the ability to get back up after his first death.

I definitely like the idea of giving him multiple warlord traits like Abaddon and Mortarion, and the idea of being able to grant a free UM stratagem sounds good to me.

Edited July 2, 2022 by RWJP

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’d like if he gets back up on a 2+ with 3+D3 wounds.

[Lord_Ikka]

A 3+ get back up seems none-OP, several other factions have abilities for a CP that allow characters to return on a 4+, and Gulliman has already done that once 

As far as weapons go, giving the Emperor's Sword some sort of auto-mortal wound mechanic would work to make it seem more potent while still having the Hand useful for cracking tanks/big stuff. The Hand is fine, its ranged component is a good mid-strength weapon useful for plinking wounds off of everything from heavy infantry to light vehicles, but doesn't need to do anything else (you're not taking him for his shooting) and the melee attacks do their job of being both strong and high damage to worry anything that is high Toughness/multi-wounds like Knights or larger daemons. 

If we really want him to be worth the 300-400 points, he needs to have some sort of damage reduction (max per phase or simply lessen by X per wound) and good support abilities that are focused on things that SM need (not re-rolls). Get rid of anything Imperium keyword related- 9th ed has basically removed souping as an option, so have Gulliman go all-in as a buffer for the Ultras/Astartes. Make him similar to the Silent King, in that he can be taken by any Adeptus Astartes army, and then give him good buffs for that- maybe allowing all Astartes to switch their doctrine for one turn or the like (he is all about tactical flexibility). 

Since us Loyalists only have the one Primarch at the moment, and it looks like Chaos will be possibly be getting their third (Angron), at least make it so that SM overall can take a Primarch. Give him better options for Ultras, but make him durable and still useful for other chapters, so that at least they also get something that can possibly go toe-to-toe with Morty/Magnus/Abbie. 

[The Emperors Champion22]

3 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

A 3+ get back up seems none-OP, several other factions have abilities for a CP that allow characters to return on a 4+, and Gulliman has already done that once 

As far as weapons go, giving the Emperor's Sword some sort of auto-mortal wound mechanic would work to make it seem more potent while still having the Hand useful for cracking tanks/big stuff. The Hand is fine, its ranged component is a good mid-strength weapon useful for plinking wounds off of everything from heavy infantry to light vehicles, but doesn't need to do anything else (you're not taking him for his shooting) and the melee attacks do their job of being both strong and high damage to worry anything that is high Toughness/multi-wounds like Knights or larger daemons. 

If we really want him to be worth the 300-400 points, he needs to have some sort of damage reduction (max per phase or simply lessen by X per wound) and good support abilities that are focused on things that SM need (not re-rolls). Get rid of anything Imperium keyword related- 9th ed has basically removed souping as an option, so have Gulliman go all-in as a buffer for the Ultras/Astartes. Make him similar to the Silent King, in that he can be taken by any Adeptus Astartes army, and then give him good buffs for that- maybe allowing all Astartes to switch their doctrine for one turn or the like (he is all about tactical flexibility). 

Since us Loyalists only have the one Primarch at the moment, and it looks like Chaos will be possibly be getting their third (Angron), at least make it so that SM overall can take a Primarch. Give him better options for Ultras, but make him durable and still useful for other chapters, so that at least they also get something that can possibly go toe-to-toe with Morty/Magnus/Abbie. 

tbf he shouldnt be able to go toe to toe with the daemon primarchs because theyre juiced to the tits with warpy goodness, but he should still smack anything but them around like a red headed step child.

He should have the max wounds per phase rule and full hits and wounds re rolls like abby and morvenn, i also want his sword to hit harder, maybe ignore invulns on 6s or the damage just cannot be ignored or discarded in any way. 

[phoenix01]

Just some ideas.

He should have a minimum of 12 wounds and a strength and toughness of 7 and the max wound per turn rule. The Emperor's Sword should cause 1 mortal wound on an unmodified wound roll of 5 and 3 MWs for an unmodified wound roll of 6, in addition to any other damage as well as act as a Deny the Witch for two psychic powers per turn. In addition to the current rules for XIII Primarch, it should also allow all Ultramarines Core units within 6" to choose which doctrine is in effect, regardless of what battle round is in effect. After all units are deployed, but prior to the start of turn 1, the controlling player would be able to redeploy one Core unit of their choice anywhere on the battlefield that is 9" from an enemy unit.

[RWJP]

20 hours ago, phoenix01 said:

Just some ideas.

He should have a minimum of 12 wounds and a strength and toughness of 7 

Honestly, with Abaddon having 9 wounds, S6 and T6 I can't see Guilliman being more than that. After all of the boons and blessings Abaddon has received from the Chaos Gods he is essentially up to the same level as a Primarch who hasn't ascended to Daemonhood, so I would expect Guilliman to come in at the same stats.

Also, 12 wounds would start causing issues for "Look Out, Sir!". He'd either need some sort of special rule to mitigate that, or he would be significantly more vulnerable.

From what I have seen, Abaddon's rules make him extremely resilient so copying those over to Guilliman should work well with the added buff of being able to stand back up after being killed for the first time.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There’s a video on Tabletop Tactics -> Abbadon one on one versus all the big baddies (no strats)… he pretty much crushed every contender.

[phoenix01]

42 minutes ago, Black Blow Fly said:

There’s a video on Tabletop Tactics -> Abbadon one on one versus all the big baddies (no strats)… he pretty much crushed every contender.

That's why the extra wounds, et al. He's a Primarch, a son of the Emperor, and he should be more than a beefy version of Calgar or Abaddon. Consider that Magnus and Mortarion are both 18 wounds each, double Guilliman. Also, Calgar is 8 wounds, just one less than Guilliman. By bumping him to 12, it's enough to elevate him above Calgar and the other chapter masters, yet still gives a daemon Primarch boost to his brothers. Certainly, let's give him a rule that protects him from Look Out, Sir. After all, this is just a wishlist, and GW will likely never see or consider these ideas.

[Captain Idaho]

I'd like to lose the super swingy and totally deflating if you fail 4+ resurrection with either the 3 wounds limit per turn, or better yet, keep Guilliman the same but give him a D3 wounds heal a turn.

Different to what else is out there with these super characters too.

I'm otherwise happy with his toughness. He has great stats for a character that can hide behind units and a 3+ Invulnerable save, so alongside Armour of Contempt and his 2+ save he's pretty tough.

His abilities need changing in my eyes, plus that Sword of his dad getting a radical overhaul to not just be an interior Drachnyen. 

In my humble opinion. 

[greatcrusade08]

I think your right with hand of dominion being so badass and useful against 99%, the emperors sword needs to offer something for the big bad character or key unit. Mortal wound output seems the go to. But no so much it renders hand of dominion useless.

Also consider the emperors sword was made for Emps, not a Primarch with no psychic ability (but lore matters not for rules balance)

 

Some other ideas:

-doesnt allow saves of any kind, ignores halving wounds rule etc.

 

I think guys above are right, him being HQ reduces HQ tax on a second detachment, which can only be good and a batter defensive ability would be welcome

[Kallas]

Honestly, it's the Emperor's Sword. Let it just do +X Mortal Wounds on a successful hit or wound roll. It could just do a flat 1 MW on a hit/2 MW on a wound. It should be carving through things easily.

[ArielRSA]

I'd simply take getting his old aura back but that would probably wreck internal UM balance

[jonjacob]

I liking the idea of 3D3 resurrection, on 3/4+ might seem swingy but at the very least you get 3-9 wounds. better than getting 1 on a D6

Now that sword, On a wound of 6+ unmodified is flat 3 mortals + normal damage, in addition wounds inflicted cannot be reduced or discarded by any rules the target model has.

we should also get rid of soup rules.
 

[Subtleknife]

For the emps sword I would prefer a combination of:

-no invuns or damage mitigation my be used against wounds made by the sword. Allow it to cancel wounds per phase mechanics etc. With that I would be quite happy if they dropped the mortals.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Subtleknife

[CCE1981]

I know I am a little late, Guilliman’s sword needs a rule that allows it to bypass rules that prevent units from taking “X” damage per phase.

[Captain Idaho]

That would make him really dangerous. Makes sense too, since The Emperor's Sword and the Emperor himself were described as destroying entire existence of enemies.

[Karhedron]

The Emperor's sword is supposed to be particularly deadly to daemons. How about against a DAEMON, each hit automatically causes 1 MW, then proceed to the normal damage resolution. That would let RG carve through hordes of lesser daemons and decently threaten big beasties too.

[Captain Idaho]

I like that. I'd extend that to Psykers too, but that's just me.