Guilliman update - changes and fixes we'd like or expect

[Lord_Ikka]

Heck, just make it ignore all saves and damage reduction- you'd have a nasty weapon right there.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Lord_Ikka

[Captain Idaho]

I'd like it not overshadow the Hand of Dominion, but be a separate type of weapon. Big ol' fist for obliterating something, Sword carves through enemies and destroys the souls of enemies!

[XeonDragon]

On 7/2/2022 at 6:39 AM, UnkyHamHam said:

Honestly, he should get all 6 UM Warlord traits. But failing that, maybe just 3 of them like Abby. 

Or maybe he can change his WL trait each command phase to any Ultra trait. 

Also, what about a targeted ability to "cast" an Ultra strat on a unit within 6" for free each turn. 

Reroll auras are nice, but boring. I'd love to see interesting stuff like this more. He's not just a primarch, which in itself should make him absurd, but he's Guilliman! 

Given he is renowned for his tactical expertise and flexibility, I'd say access to all 6 UM WL traits + all the successor ones in the codex + maybe a couple of unique ones and... pick any 3 (maybe 4) before the start of the battle (a bit like Tyranid hive "traits" when the codex first came out, they could switch one out from 2 of 3 lists the fleet had access to). 

[jonjacob]

Give the hand of dominion an AP of -4 and maybe slap 5-6 damage on it. the x2 strength should make viable can opening tool where the sword may not wound e.g T9.

[Orange Knight]

Hello Ultramarines! I really enjoy these theory-crafting topics.

I've been looking at Abaddon's rules for inspiration, and have come up with a comparative set for Guilliman. Here we go:

 

Roboute Guilliman: 350 points. HQ choice (Not a LoW)

Change to infantry, not a monstrous creature. Takes up 4 spaces in a transport. (Abaddon is bigger than Guilliman as a model, and yet is both a HQ and an Infantry model - this has numerous advantages)

 

Stats:

M8   BS2+   WS2+   Str7   T7   W9   A6   LD12   SV2+

Hand of Dominion Melee: Str x 2, AP -4, Damage D3+3

Hand of Dominion Shooting: Range 18", Assault 6, Str 6, Ap -2, Damage 2 (This weapon counts as a Bolt weapon)

Emperor's Sword: Str +2, AP -5, Damage 2  - This weapon generates 1 additional hit roll for each attack this model makes. In addition, when attacking units with the "Psyker" or "Daemon" keywords, it deals 2 Mortal Wounds for each hit instead of the regular damage.

 

Angels of Death

Armour of Fate: This model has a 3+ Invulnerable save. This model can never be wounded on a roll better than 4+, in addition this model cannot lose more than 3 wounds in any given phase.

Author of the Codex:  This model automatically knows all Warlord Traits from Codex Space Marines or the Ultramarines Supplement (Must select 1 set at the start of battle). In addition, this model does not pay a CP cost for knowing a trait. Roboute Guilliman must be the Warlord in any army that includes him.

Master of Battle: Models in the same detachment as Guilliman can use his leadership for the purpose of morale checks. In addition, if your army is battle-forged then you receive an additional 3 Command Points.

Primarch of the 13th:  You can re-roll hit rolls and wound rolls of 1 for all Friendly Ultramarine units within 12" of Roboute Guilliman. In addition, during the command phase you can select 1 friendly Ultramarine unit within 6" of Guilliman - that unit can re-roll all Hit and Wound rolls.

 

Keywords: Imperium, Adeptus Astartes, Ultramarines, Character, Infantry, Primarch, Roboute Guilliman

Edited August 10, 2022 by Orange Knight

[Captain Idaho]

I like all those takes on the rules bar a single tiny point - I just feel like the Emperor's Sword uses a design common in 40K that I find somewhat boring and overused.

Works great and is a good take on it of course, I just would like the Emperor's Sword to have something different?

It would chew through Daemons though which is cool.

[Orange Knight]

Yeah it's very hard to invent rules for it which separate it from the Hand of Dominion but also function in a unique way.

Right now, the Sword is inferior to Fist and that feels wrong. It needs to excel in some way. The rules I wrote above would still have the player select the Fist for tough, single unit targets or characters, or even a small squad of elite infantry. The Sword would get the pick when dealing with Hordes or Daemons/Psykers.

[CCE1981]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Hello Ultramarines! I really enjoy these theory-crafting topics.

I've been looking at Abaddon's rules for inspiration, and have come up with a comparative set for Guilliman. Here we go:

 

Roboute Guilliman: 350 points. HQ choice (Not a LoW)

Change to infantry, not a monstrous creature. Takes up 4 spaces in a transport. (Abaddon is bigger than Guilliman as a model, and yet is both a HQ and an Infantry model - this has numerous advantages)

 

Stats:

M8   BS2+   WS2+   Str7   T7   W9   A6   LD12   SV2+

Hand of Dominion Melee: Str x 2, AP -4, Damage D3+3

Hand of Dominion Shooting: Range 18", Assault 6, Str 6, Ap -2, Damage 2 (This weapon counts as a Bolt weapon)

Emperor's Sword: Str +2, AP -5, Damage 2  - This weapon generates 1 additional hit roll for each attack this model makes. In addition, when attacking units with the "Psyker" or "Daemon" keywords, it deals 2 Mortal Wounds for each hit instead of the regular damage.

 

Angels of Death

Armour of Fate: This model has a 3+ Invulnerable save. This model can never be wounded on a roll better than 4+, in addition this model cannot lose more than 3 wounds in any given phase.

Author of the Codex:  This model automatically knows all Warlord Traits from Codex Space Marines or the Ultramarines Supplement (Must select 1 set at the start of battle). In addition, this model does not pay a CP cost for knowing a trait. Roboute Guilliman must be the Warlord in any army that includes him.

Master of Battle: Models in the same detachment as Guilliman can use his leadership for the purpose of morale checks. In addition, if your army is battle-forged then you receive an additional 3 Command Points.

Primarch of the 13th:  You can re-roll hit rolls and wound rolls of 1 for all Friendly Ultramarine units within 12" of Roboute Guilliman. In addition, during the command phase you can select 1 friendly Ultramarine unit within 6" of Guilliman - that unit can re-roll all Hit and Wound rolls.

 

Keywords: Imperium, Adeptus Astartes, Ultramarines, Character, Infantry, Primarch, Roboute Guilliman

Abaddon, Gatzgul, etc would still handedly murder Guilliman if he had this profile.

[Orange Knight]

Well, he is protected as they are with only suffering 3 wounds per phase with the rules I suggested.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Damage 2 for the sword seems weak. It should ignore things that ignore wounds.

[Lord_Ikka]

I feel like d2 for the sword would be fine with the mortal wound proviso. 

[Captain Idaho]

If the sword ignored "ignore wounds" then maybe D2 wouldn't be so bad?

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, Lord_Ikka said:

I feel like d2 for the sword would be fine with the mortal wound proviso. 

Yeah, it has to be different from the fist otherwise it serves no purpose. It can't simply be the same weapon except slighty worse/better.

If it's a dedicated horde hunter and slayer of psykers and daemons then it has very good utility.

[Captain Idaho]

I just like the idea it only generates Mortal Wounds, since there's an analogy between Psykers damage always being Mortal Wounds in this edition and The Emperor bring a Psyker and all.

But I appreciate the rules Orange Knight are the most balanced so as to be useful without being too niche or eclipsing other weapon choices etc.

Still, a successful hit causing a Mortal Wound and hits of a 5+ causing D3 instead would potentially burn through hordes, hurt Daemons and we can tag on "no damage mitigation or Daemon saves can be taken" to make it slightly more important against slightly more targets.

Just on that idea, as I've said I think Orange Knight has a more likely and useful weapon rules choice, but what would people think is balanced about causing the D3 Mortal Wounds? 4+ to hit instead? It is the Emperor's Sword after all!

Or maybe a D2 profile, S:user and then 4+ for D3 Mortal Wounds? Compared to Damage D3+3 it is still more consistent against large targets and 3 Wound Infantry to use the Hand of Dominion I think?

[Subtleknife]

Instead if balancing the sword and the gauntlet might it be easier and potentially better to integrate them into one CC profile. That way you don't have ro worry about creating 3 profiles that are unique and do different things.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Subtleknife

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think he should be a psyker now .

[Lord_Ikka]

2 minutes ago, Black Blow Fly said:

I think he should be a psyker now .

While all the Primarchs have some connection to the Warp, be it blatant powers like Magnus, latent talents like Mortarion, or the shadow movements of Corax, Gulliman has never had any specific abilities that are Warp-related. He's always been a well-rounded Primarch, with good strategic and tactical abilities, but better than any other at the organization and administration side of ruling. I don't know if giving him psychic powers really fits into what he does in both game terms or in-universe fluff.

[UnkyHamHam]

5 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

While all the Primarchs have some connection to the Warp, be it blatant powers like Magnus, latent talents like Mortarion, or the shadow movements of Corax, Gulliman has never had any specific abilities that are Warp-related. He's always been a well-rounded Primarch, with good strategic and tactical abilities, but better than any other at the organization and administration side of ruling. I don't know if giving him psychic powers really fits into what he does in both game terms or in-universe fluff.

But giving him psychic powers is totally the most 40k thing.  All it takes is for the next campaign book or novel having Gman go on an "awakening quest" to unleash his "true potential" that the Emperor "always intended for his sons" or something like that. Maybe even becoming an "Avatar of The Emperor" or whatever. 

Not saying this a good idea, just saying I see the path should they want it. 

[Lord_Ikka]

Agreed, it would be an option, just not one I would personally like to see. I'd rather have another Loyalist Primarch come back with some extra abilities- Russ from his travels or the Lion having something awakened after the battle with Luther/subsequent healing by the Watchers in the Dark. Corax, who is in the Eye and apparently some sort of half-shadow terror-thing, would also work for that. Putting something like that on Gulliman just doesn't feel...right.

[phoenix01]

I agree. Guilliam has turned away from his Psychic potential, so giving him Psychic abilities doesn't make sense. Now giving him a boost to Deny the Witch, what with the Emperor's Sword, that makes sense to me.

[Captain Idaho]

Ooo is there fluff where he is revealed to be a psyker?

To be fair, although I don't think Primarchs should all be Psychic, I would think it was cool if Guilliman could deny a power or 2. Force of will, the resistance of a Primarch, the Emperor divinely looking out for him...

Speaking of which, here's a radical thought and hear me out! It will be spoilerific.

Here's the fluff:

Spoiler

Guilliman became an Avatar of the Emperor during a particularly close battle with Mortarion, imbuing him with much might.

The rules:

Spoiler

What if Guilliman has a similar empowered rule? Like he doesn't mitigate damage or have a cap, same survivability, but if he is reduced to 0 wounds he becomes empowered by the Emperor on a 2+. His stats go up, he resurrects like now, heals a wound a turn and gets a massive sweeping foaming Psychic power as per burning the garden of Nurgle.

That's 40K fluffy.

Obviously I'd like him to keep his command abilities but I think with this power up, he loses those abilities because he's now not Guilliman but the conduit of the Emperor himself.

What do you think of those ideas? It would be different and interesting. 

[Karhedron]

In one of the Siege novels, Malcador warns that most of the Primarchs are not "built" for meddling with the Warp. He specifically warns Dorn that the Warp is against his nature and trying to understand it would end up leading him down the path of damnation. To be fair, Guilliman's dabbling at the start of Godblight has real echoes of Mortarion's first steps in Daemonology.

[Subtleknife]

Isn't there a passage in the first dark imperium book where Gman and his retinue teleport (think it is onto fulgrims ship) where he talks about feeling his warp part of him and saying something along the lines of he hasn't explored that part of him etc. I could be making all this up but I seem to recall something to that effect. If what I remember is correct it could be primarchs can be psychic but their nature can prevent them. 

[Orange Knight]

14 hours ago, Subtleknife said:

Isn't there a passage in the first dark imperium book where Gman and his retinue teleport (think it is onto fulgrims ship) where he talks about feeling his warp part of him and saying something along the lines of he hasn't explored that part of him etc. I could be making all this up but I seem to recall something to that effect. If what I remember is correct it could be primarchs can be psychic but their nature can prevent them. 

Yes, I do recall something like this.

I think it implied that he is a creature of the warp, as all the Primarchs are, and during the teleportation process he felt - for a brief instant - that he was one with it or something like that. It hints towards the theory that the Emperor engineered the physical bodies of the Primarchs, and then infused them with the souls of minor Warp Gods or something to that effect.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if all the Primarchs could manifest some sort of warp powers - in fact some of their feats and abilities are probably as a result of the warp. However Guilliman is painfully logical and loathes everything warp related. It's simply not in his character - he might even suppress any powers that manifest.

In 30k he has a nice rule that negates Psychic powers that target him on a 3+

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I liked that rule. Would be good to give him something similar, like a 4+ against Mortal Wounds and a 4+ to nullify enemy powers that include him in its areas of effect.