Strategies Against MEQs

[Acturis]

I haven't played since an unspoken virus got out and I'm about to get back into the game. I typically play with a Space Marine player. The guy always chases the new meta/cheese. And he has the money to back it up (Don't get me wrong, he's a great dude. That's why I love playing against him. But I would be lying if I said I didn't annoy me him always chasing the latest cheese.)

Having switched to 9e; I was wondering what sort of strategies the Guard has against MEQ? I've heard Space Marines have buffed their wounds to 2 on average; nerfing my Catachan Hellhound strategy - one I uses to successfully counter the old Ironhand Fliers meta. Another favored tactic I had was specialist detachment of Scions to drop from Valks for a nasty Alpha Strike. But I've heard the Specialist Detachments have been relegated to legends.

What strategies do you use against MEQ? Regular infantry with plasma and HWT due to the drop in weapons costs (despite the overall point increase for the unit)? What about Armored Sentinels for their turn 1 BS3+? Are our snipers still worthless against MEQ characters? Is a battery of Basilisks still an auto-include? Is the Manticore anymore viable?

I'm open to all suggestions and I have no problem changing regiments. I do favor a very aggressive playstyle; leading me to usually lean in Tallarn, Catachan, and Armageddon.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Well now vehicles are doing pretty good, which means you have pretty reliable access to plasma cannons.

I’m not a ‘competitive player’ I get what I like and I can fit into my army’s lore, but here’s what I used in my last game against WS.

 

Heavy Support detachment whatever it’s called.
LRBT(tank commander)

LRD

LR Exterminator

 

HWT- auto cannons

HWT- mortars

basilisk

infantry squad- plasma/HB

infantry squad- missile launcher/melta

veteran squad- 2 flamers 1 melta HF, autocannon

Edited July 7, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[dees]

The best things again MEQ are our IDF, special weapons and weight of dice.  MEQs are tough with at least 2 wounds each and ignoring the 1st point of AP gimped a lot of what we could spam against them effectively (specifically the heavy bolter.) 

The Basilisk is good but the Manticore with the 3D Tank Ace upgrade wins out IMO.  I run 2 Manticores and in my lists and usually only one Basilisk. 

Our Hellhounds are still fantastic but don't remove MEQ, they make MEQ (and almost everyone else too) deal with them as the other parts our force blasts away and gets objectives. 

I'm not sure about the Valk/Scion alpha strike effectiveness as I don't have the figs to do it.  It seems to me it would have an issue if you go 2nd and the bird gets shot down before it gets a chance.   You can do a second turn deep strike with them instead though. 

Be sure to post about your games!!!

      

[Acturis]

I was in the process of setting up for my first one when making that post. The game was:
1,000 pts
Catachan Battalion vs Ravenwing Detachment
Catachan
HQ - Aradia Madellan, Company Commander WT Grand Strategist (I completely forgot about)
Troops - 3x INF Squads w/SGT Plasma Pistol
Elites - Ministorum Priest, Sergeant Harker
Fast Attack - 3x Hellhounds w/flamer, track guards, hunter-killer missile
Hvy - Basilisk, LRBT

Ravenwing
No idea, I don't have them memorizeds. Bikes, hover bikes, meltas, and plasma

Terran
Hive City - Very tight urban terrain that a lot of units couldn't see or move through

Timeline

Turn 1
Preliminary bombardment - worthless
I won initiative and chose to go first. Hoping to seize the primary objective marker and put my troops near the middle for 2 secondaries I picked. An obscuring piece of terrain made it perfect for my guys to hold the position without being targeted as they had no IDF (Ritual Casting and Investigate I think is what its called). Used Move, Move, Move to get any troop that didn't make the advance into cover. Two Hellhounds pushed to the center to block the enemy from getting within 6" of the center (I didn't push as far up because I forgot they had 12" move, oh well). My third hellhound swung left to support my troops and stop his bikes from overrunning them. My LRBT went right to seize another primary objective marker and force the space marines to engage me in the fatal funnel where the number of his bikes counted for nothing (That tank lasted the entire game at that position, being fired at with plasma, multi-meltas, and eventually powerswords). Basilisk was the only unit to fire, with Harker securing the objective and giving rerolls on hits. Basilisk rolled max hits and chewed through his plasma bikes in the far left field.

The enemy responded by focusing fire on my LRBT; rushing to contest the objective before charging. They did 1 point of damage despite the huge reroll buffs he had with Meltas and their hero. Not even their charge helped. He then focused fire on my lead hellhound in the center. They chewed through 8 wounds but that means nothing to a hellhound with trackguards. The left side swung to the center because my basilisk hit him so hard.
He also used orbital bombardment on the center, hoping to knock out my psyker and warlord. That was brutal as all but Aradia was brought to 1 wound and he hit my lead hellhound. Killing my lead hellhound and causing it to do mortals to my rear hellhound.

Turn 2 to 3
Left hellhound rushed down the board to coordinate an attack with the center hellhound that moved forward. The two pincered a single, T5 W4 ravenwing unit but couldn't finish the job (1 wound left). The center investigated and ritually cast (they couldn't do it last turn as they advanced turn 1). Basilisk continued to do the emperor's work. My LRBT continued to hold the right side, firing heavy bolter into the bikes. Preventing the bikes and heroes from rushing past to turn my basilisk into mulch. My central hellhound charged the center, hoping to do the final wound of damage or explode in his face. Neither happened.

He focused heavily on the LRBT on the right, but round after round my bare bones LRBT held the line. Eventually flying his over hero over the central point to then melee my infantry from above (5" vertical engagement range). He killed Aradia and my Warlord. I countered with S4 A2 fists of fury and the priest's own zealot rebuke. But I only did 2 wounds to a 6 wound character.

 

We called it after turn 3 because it was clear the space marines were going to win.

 

@dees You were right about the Hellhounds. They didn't clear MEQ. They did cause him to adjust his strategy and respond to them though.

@Inquisitor_Lensoven I think I'm going to experiment integrated Plasma into my regular troops and possibly an autocannon. It'll nerf FRFSRF, but massed lasguns don't seem to cut it versus MEQ. Acknowledging that my opponent almost never fields leg infantry if he can help it.

I think I'm going to try fielding armored sentinels with plasma. Force his more expensive units to fire at a relatively cheap T6 unit with plasma instead of focusing on my bigger threats. A 2,000 point game will definitely seen an increase in basilisk/manticore use and LRBT. The amount of punishment that tank took was beautiful.

Smaller 2.heic Smaller1.heic

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I also want to note quickly that the game I played against the scars was someone testing a tournament list, I did get tabled but I believe he only had about 4 models left.

had I remembered grinding advance in T1 I may have tabled him.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Acturis said:

I was in the process of setting up for my first one when making that post. The game was:
1,000 pts
Catachan Battalion vs Ravenwing Detachment
Catachan
HQ - Aradia Madellan, Company Commander WT Grand Strategist (I completely forgot about)
Troops - 3x INF Squads w/SGT Plasma Pistol
Elites - Ministorum Priest, Sergeant Harker
Fast Attack - 3x Hellhounds w/flamer, track guards, hunter-killer missile
Hvy - Basilisk, LRBT

Ravenwing
No idea, I don't have them memorizeds. Bikes, hover bikes, meltas, and plasma

Terran
Hive City - Very tight urban terrain that a lot of units couldn't see or move through

Timeline

Turn 1
Preliminary bombardment - worthless
I won initiative and chose to go first. Hoping to seize the primary objective marker and put my troops near the middle for 2 secondaries I picked. An obscuring piece of terrain made it perfect for my guys to hold the position without being targeted as they had no IDF (Ritual Casting and Investigate I think is what its called). Used Move, Move, Move to get any troop that didn't make the advance into cover. Two Hellhounds pushed to the center to block the enemy from getting within 6" of the center (I didn't push as far up because I forgot they had 12" move, oh well). My third hellhound swung left to support my troops and stop his bikes from overrunning them. My LRBT went right to seize another primary objective marker and force the space marines to engage me in the fatal funnel where the number of his bikes counted for nothing (That tank lasted the entire game at that position, being fired at with plasma, multi-meltas, and eventually powerswords). Basilisk was the only unit to fire, with Harker securing the objective and giving rerolls on hits. Basilisk rolled max hits and chewed through his plasma bikes in the far left field.

The enemy responded by focusing fire on my LRBT; rushing to contest the objective before charging. They did 1 point of damage despite the huge reroll buffs he had with Meltas and their hero. Not even their charge helped. He then focused fire on my lead hellhound in the center. They chewed through 8 wounds but that means nothing to a hellhound with trackguards. The left side swung to the center because my basilisk hit him so hard.
He also used orbital bombardment on the center, hoping to knock out my psyker and warlord. That was brutal as all but Aradia was brought to 1 wound and he hit my lead hellhound. Killing my lead hellhound and causing it to do mortals to my rear hellhound.

Turn 2 to 3
Left hellhound rushed down the board to coordinate an attack with the center hellhound that moved forward. The two pincered a single, T5 W4 ravenwing unit but couldn't finish the job (1 wound left). The center investigated and ritually cast (they couldn't do it last turn as they advanced turn 1). Basilisk continued to do the emperor's work. My LRBT continued to hold the right side, firing heavy bolter into the bikes. Preventing the bikes and heroes from rushing past to turn my basilisk into mulch. My central hellhound charged the center, hoping to do the final wound of damage or explode in his face. Neither happened.

He focused heavily on the LRBT on the right, but round after round my bare bones LRBT held the line. Eventually flying his over hero over the central point to then melee my infantry from above (5" vertical engagement range). He killed Aradia and my Warlord. I countered with S4 A2 fists of fury and the priest's own zealot rebuke. But I only did 2 wounds to a 6 wound character.

 

We called it after turn 3 because it was clear the space marines were going to win.

 

@dees You were right about the Hellhounds. They didn't clear MEQ. They did cause him to adjust his strategy and respond to them though.

@Inquisitor_Lensoven I think I'm going to experiment integrated Plasma into my regular troops and possibly an autocannon. It'll nerf FRFSRF, but massed lasguns don't seem to cut it versus MEQ. Acknowledging that my opponent almost never fields leg infantry if he can help it.

I think I'm going to try fielding armored sentinels with plasma. Force his more expensive units to fire at a relatively cheap T6 unit with plasma instead of focusing on my bigger threats. A 2,000 point game will definitely seen an increase in basilisk/manticore use and LRBT. The amount of punishment that tank took was beautiful.

Smaller 2.heicUnavailable Smaller1.heicUnavailable

Are you going with sponsons in the Russ?

that’s where I got my plasma cannons, and the vents allow you to overcharge every turn no worries if I remember the rule correctly.

[MasterDeath]

If you have not done so yet, i would advise you to have a look at the balance dataslate. A good number If Changes to the guard.

[dees]

Sounded like a fun game.  Do you have special and heavy weapons is you INF squads?  This best loadout seems to me to be plasma guns and lascannons upgrades as they are free, and they seem to do well against most enemies.  The LRBT are much improved but I find I need at least two of the LRBT commanders to be really effective.  

[Acturis]

Inquisitor_Lensoven - I did not have anything beyond the basic HB in the chassis. A bare bones LRBT for 155 points is pretty potent; especially with Catachan's shot rerolls. Are the worth it on the standard LRBT and their BS4+? I typically only deck out tank commander sponsons.

MasterDeath - I have looked at it, thank you!

dees/Inquisitor - I'm looking at Infantry Troops w/Plasma and HB. It seems like the best option even if I face bikes again. Autocannons are great, but I feel (I didn't math) like the HB is better (A lot of his heroes are T6, but usually screened until he charges). I've never fared well with lascannons in squads. Maybe that's just me.

 

Partial Strategy
I've assembled a 580 point combat patrol that will accompany the battalion I'm working on for the 2k game (see attached). This will be the alpha strike/scion bomb I was talking about. 2 Valks zip across the board. Drop 2 command squads (meltas)+TPrime+Other supports (TBD Yarrick, Astropath, Aradia for psychic augment) within 5" using precision drop. The second Valk drops a 10 man Scions squad with 32nd Thetoid Eagles TPrime with Progeny of Conflit (32nd Thetoid Trait) that turns the hotshot lasguns into AP4.

Now all unmodified hits of 6 score 1 additional hit and those 6s auto-wound (when within half ranged). Using FRFSRF on the 10 man squad will suddenly bring a LOT of pain thanks to Hammer of the Emperor at AP 4.

I was debating about giving Laurels of Command for a relic. Elimination Protocol is valuable but so is Take Aim! (I could alleviate it with bringing Yarrick, but that is a big tax).

This build will hit like a ton of bricks, but I don't expect it to survive the counter-strike. The idea here is that I'm expecting Repulsor Executioners that *need* to be brought down. I remember pre-virus that he could bring one or two of those and it'd absolutely devastate everything on the board.

Thoughts?

 

I'm still figuring out what to do with the other 1400 points. Manticore vs Basilisk and all that fun stuff.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Acturis said:

Inquisitor_Lensoven - I did not have anything beyond the basic HB in the chassis. A bare bones LRBT for 155 points is pretty potent; especially with Catachan's shot rerolls. Are the worth it on the standard LRBT and their BS4+? I typically only deck out tank commander sponsons.

MasterDeath - I have looked at it, thank you!

dees/Inquisitor - I'm looking at Infantry Troops w/Plasma and HB. It seems like the best option even if I face bikes again. Autocannons are great, but I feel (I didn't math) like the HB is better (A lot of his heroes are T6, but usually screened until he charges). I've never fared well with lascannons in squads. Maybe that's just me.

 

Partial Strategy
I've assembled a 580 point combat patrol that will accompany the battalion I'm working on for the 2k game (see attached). This will be the alpha strike/scion bomb I was talking about. 2 Valks zip across the board. Drop 2 command squads (meltas)+TPrime+Other supports (TBD Yarrick, Astropath, Aradia for psychic augment) within 5" using precision drop. The second Valk drops a 10 man Scions squad with 32nd Thetoid Eagles TPrime with Progeny of Conflit (32nd Thetoid Trait) that turns the hotshot lasguns into AP4.

Now all unmodified hits of 6 score 1 additional hit and those 6s auto-wound (when within half ranged). Using FRFSRF on the 10 man squad will suddenly bring a LOT of pain thanks to Hammer of the Emperor at AP 4.

I was debating about giving Laurels of Command for a relic. Elimination Protocol is valuable but so is Take Aim! (I could alleviate it with bringing Yarrick, but that is a big tax).

This build will hit like a ton of bricks, but I don't expect it to survive the counter-strike. The idea here is that I'm expecting Repulsor Executioners that *need* to be brought down. I remember pre-virus that he could bring one or two of those and it'd absolutely devastate everything on the board.

Thoughts?

 

I'm still figuring out what to do with the other 1400 points. Manticore vs Basilisk and all that fun stuff.

I’m pretty sure Catachan rerolls are only for flamers so don’t effect anything on the Russes.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

12 hours ago, dees said:

Sounded like a fun game.  Do you have special and heavy weapons is you INF squads?  This best loadout seems to me to be plasma guns and lascannons upgrades as they are free, and they seem to do well against most enemies.  The LRBT are much improved but I find I need at least two of the LRBT commanders to be really effective.  

Most expensive doesn’t necessarily mean best.

Lascannon is super swingy 

[sairence]

5 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I’m pretty sure Catachan rerolls are only for flamers so don’t effect anything on the Russes.

Catachan rerolls are for any weapon with random shots, just like Gunnery Experts.

The Catachan strategem is only for flamers.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

16 hours ago, sairence said:

Catachan rerolls are for any weapon with random shots, just like Gunnery Experts.

The Catachan strategem is only for flamers.

Well shoot.

I definitely probably would have won that white scars game had I not gotten that messed up.