Legionary Weapon Options

[Verbal Underbelly]

Just a quick one really, can anybody here offer any insight into the design decision that lead to legionaries not being able to take two of the same weapon in a 10 person squad?

Out of all the design changes in the new codex this one feels the most arbitrary and unintuitive to me. I know some other people are non-plussed by the load-out changes in general; we all know this and I'd like to avoid turning this into a complaints thread.

[TrawlingCleaner]

My assumption is that they made Legionnaires loadout match the current plastic kit. I think the rationale is that new players coming into the hobby/faction aren't struggling to make loadouts out of several kits to source parts from other ranges (Combi weapons). There is still an element of that due to the Heavy weapons options needed to be sourced from a Havoc kit but they do advertise the kits to be compatible, if I remember correctly.

It seems arbitrary mostly because I think it makes no difference to the overall balance of the unit. Having 2 plasma guns doesn't seem at all broken or overpowered whereas something like Havocs being restricted to the kit loadout would absolutely cripple the unit

[Dr_Ruminahui]

They may also have wanted legionaires to be our "generalist" unit, and have felt that allowing them to have 2 of the same weapon (especially heavy weapons) stepped on the toes of havocs too much.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Gilbertus1]

9 hours ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

My assumption is that they made Legionnaires loadout match the current plastic kit. I think the rationale is that new players coming into the hobby/faction aren't struggling to make loadouts out of several kits to source parts from other ranges (Combi weapons). There is still an element of that due to the Heavy weapons options needed to be sourced from a Havoc kit but they do advertise the kits to be compatible, if I remember correctly.

It seems arbitrary mostly because I think it makes no difference to the overall balance of the unit. Having 2 plasma guns doesn't seem at all broken or overpowered whereas something like Havocs being restricted to the kit loadout would absolutely cripple the unit

Agreed.

Though if it was due to the kit the only heavy allowed would be heavy bolter / missile (and one of each).

Yes Havoc weapons can be used with Legionaries, yet since that is the case then why the limitation? (Not having a limitation would push more sales of Havocs to get weapons)

9 hours ago, Dr_Ruminahui said:

They may also have wanted legionaires to be our "generalist" unit, and have felt that allowing them to have 2 of the same weapon (especially heavy weapons) stepped on the toes of havocs too much.

Especially with an icon of Tzeench. That may be the issue.

Maybe if they give Havocs icon access, they may also remove the legionary limitation.

[BrainFireBob]

Slow walk to locked equipment and power level. Frog doesn't jump if he's boiled.

 

This book, we lose doubles and 20 man squads, Termie options, Chosen Options, HQ options.

 

Next Marine book, Tacs restricted to MLs.

 

Next Chaos book, Chaos matched with only the heavy bolter or ML

 

That's my opinion, anyway. Can't dump points for PL without cookie cutter units. 

Edited July 13, 2022 by BrainFireBob

[BrainFireBob]

Bad business thinking. It's only a loss if a sale actually is cannibalized. 

[Verbal Underbelly]

Interesting viewpoints all. 

Next question: in a casual game against friends would you be happy to use, or face against, a 10 person CSM squad with 2 identical special or heavy weapons? As I said in the original post it's the only change I personally dislike and visually as much as anything I like the idea of identical "support" weapons. As @TrawlingCleaner mentioned it's not game breaking.

[TrawlingCleaner]

Houseruling is one of the cooler parts of the hobby, the official rules are less concrete and more guidelines. My group kindly houseruled for me to have 2W Chaos marines for the last year and a half (with appropriate points increases), we've houseruled many other things as well.

I would bring it up with your opponents before the game and also come prepared on the very small chance they say no.

[MegaVolt87]

I think its all too hard for GW these days. Look at HH 2.0, its got so many fixes and improvements we want for 40k in there. GW would rather you move to HH, play the new hotness or quit than fix issues in 40k at this point by their current behaviour. We always had to combine boxes together for bits for load outs and loyalists still have to today. CSM are the test bed for these "ideas" due to our low product line sales I would imagine. GW has told us they are a model company first and it shows. It seems they forget no one is buying as many new models if the rules are poor. Necrons are in a similar position to us at the moment, bunch of new models, poor rules and still missing a lot of new sculpts for models well past their prime. 

[Ezekyle_Abaddon]

Speaking of arbitrary and unintuitive wargear options, the Havoc champion cannot have a bolter. Only the special and melee weapons may be taken

[Khornestar]

56 minutes ago, Ezekyle_Abaddon said:

Speaking of arbitrary and unintuitive wargear options, the Havoc champion cannot have a bolter. Only the special and melee weapons may be taken

 

The havoc champion can take a boltgun. He can also take two chainswords, which is super cool.

[Ezekyle_Abaddon]

46 minutes ago, Khornestar said:

 

The havoc champion can take a boltgun. He can also take two chainswords, which is super cool.

Apologies, you are correct. I was running off an assumption because Battlescribe says he can't take a bolter, but the datasheet does. I'll have to notify the community mangers

Edited July 14, 2022 by Ezekyle_Abaddon

[Closet Skeleton]

On 7/13/2022 at 4:33 AM, EnsignJoker said:

I think it’s a nefarious/unfortunate creeping of the need to protect IP that has throttled parts of this codex

GW doesn’t want you printing combi weapons or extra special weapons, or going to 3rd party retailers for your extra plasma guns and whatnot. They give you what you need and can use in the boxes they sell. 

There are combi weapons in the Tactical squad kit and the Mark IV marines kit, if they wanted Aspring Champions to have combi-weapons they'd have put them in the kit. The rules are just catching up to a modeling decision we'll probably never understand.

The lack of double weapons is probably more of an aesthetics one, they don't want hyper specialised units in the troops slot. No modern army has a platoon consiting entirely of guys with grenade launchers. A realistic squad wouldn't have double weapons but a game efficient squad should have them. Since they can't seem to make the game mechanics fit the lore they're forcing your hand with the unit options.

[BrainFireBob]

You're assuming the rules decision drove the kit contents. We know GWA tends to go the other way.

 

Kit contents were designed, then a design philosophy change to limit rules, in slapdash, inconsistent fashion, to kit contents. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by BrainFireBob

[Marshal Mittens]

14 hours ago, Closet Skeleton said:

There are combi weapons in the Tactical squad kit and the Mark IV marines kit, if they wanted Aspring Champions to have combi-weapons they'd have put them in the kit. The rules are just catching up to a modeling decision we'll probably never understand.

The lack of double weapons is probably more of an aesthetics one, they don't want hyper specialised units in the troops slot. No modern army has a platoon consiting entirely of guys with grenade launchers. A realistic squad wouldn't have double weapons but a game efficient squad should have them. Since they can't seem to make the game mechanics fit the lore they're forcing your hand with the unit options.

New USMC rifle is to give everyone an automatic rifleman rifle, replacing the M16/M4 and their squad automatic rifle in one go.

 

Also many units have more tubes per squad/team than regulations suggest.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

A little nudge as moderator here - let's not let this discussion get bogged down on whether the Legionaries datasheet complies with modern doctrine regarding squad organization, as one has absolutely nothing to do with the other - the best we can say is that the designers might have designed the entry based on how they thought such doctrine operated.

In other words, its of questionable relevance at best.