[3k] Iron Hands Fury of the Ancients - New list!

[oldhat]

Revisions - notably because that last list was illegal (lol):

Iron Hands FotA

HQ:
Venerable Ancient Contemptor Dreadnought
Lascannon & Fist w/ Combi
From Hel’s Heart WLT
[225]

Troops:
(3) Contemptor Dreadnought Talon (LINE)
1x Melta Cannon, Chainfist w/ Combi
2x Lascannon & Fist w/ Plasma Blaster
[600]

(3) Contemptor Dreadnought Talon (LINE)
1x Melta Cannon, Chainfist w/ Combi
2x Lascannon & Fist w/ Plasma Blaster
[600]

(5) Reconnaissance Squad
4x Nemesis Bolters, Augury Scanner
[135]

(5) Reconnaissance Squad
4x Nemesis Bolters, Augury Scanner
[135]

Heavy:
(2) Deredeo Dreadnought
Arachnus Lascannons, Boreas Missiles
[450]

(2) Deredeo Dreadnought
Arachnus Lascannons, Boreas Missiles
[450]

Leviathan
CML, Drill, Phosphex
Drop Pod
[405]

[3000]

Quadruple Deredeo may be overkill, but they just shoot so well and are roughly the same cost as a dual Las Contemptor with more perks. So, why not? Melta Cannon & CFist are dedicated anti-tank, while the other Contemptors just toss Lascannon shots down range. They can focus fire on tough armor or TEQ units and once they close in, all those brutal attacks should make solid work of just about anything. Levi is anti-tank, but can also go hard on infantry too. Not sure if I want to commit to drill or go claw for brutal. With so much antitank already, that may be the way to go. Recon for more line and Pinning, plus Augury scanners to help buffer out infiltrators and get around NF.

I think of the lists this one is probably getting into the meaner territory. But hey, at least it isn't only Dreads now.

[Lord Krungharr]

This is fantastic!  Easily turned into a 2K army too.  Certainly an army for a competitive scene but such an impressive sight with all those Dreads.  The versatility of it is excellent, though I could still see a glorious tarpit vs hordes of power armor gumming up your board control.  This vs tons of outflanking and scouting Mor Deythans, lascannons from afar, maybe some rad-missiles lowering toughnesses from an allied detachment.  Just writing out loud what might be good counters to Dreadnoughts 

 

[RoadRunna]

Sorry oldhat but I'm not a real fan of this list for IH due to it being a little unfriendly given the -Sth advantage that we have - particularly when you are combining it with 2 min-size recon squads with Nemeis bolters.

Having said that, all of your Walkers are armed with either Melta or Lascannons - nice for killing armour but this will really struggle against troop heavy armies.  As already commented upon, getting stuck in a tarpit will really hurt you doing anything interesting with this lot.  Perhaps consider taking some more anti-troop weapons on a few of your Dreadies to help thin out some of those enemy troops after you knock out their Rhino or Landraider.  

 

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

6 hours ago, RoadRunna said:

Sorry oldhat but I'm not a real fan of this list for IH due to it being a little unfriendly given the -Sth advantage that we have - particularly when you are combining it with 2 min-size recon squads with Nemeis bolters.

Having said that, all of your Walkers are armed with either Melta or Lascannons - nice for killing armour but this will really struggle against troop heavy armies.  As already commented upon, getting stuck in a tarpit will really hurt you doing anything interesting with this lot.  Perhaps consider taking some more anti-troop weapons on a few of your Dreadies to help thin out some of those enemy troops after you knock out their Rhino or Landraider.  

 

 

3x Seekers with scorpius rounds, plasma gun squads, and a healthy veteran squad or three will make short work of this list. Toss in some thunder hammers and you'll see dreads arent that big of a deal...

It really just depends on what you think you're going to be placed against in GTs. 

I'm more interested in why the dreads don't have targeting arrays but the recon squads do. Bare bones Recon squads with nemesis bolters and scanners aren't very good. Especially once they get pinned from Deep Strike.

[oldhat]

10 hours ago, RoadRunna said:

Sorry oldhat but I'm not a real fan of this list for IH due to it being a little unfriendly given the -Sth advantage that we have - particularly when you are combining it with 2 min-size recon squads with Nemeis bolters.

Having said that, all of your Walkers are armed with either Melta or Lascannons - nice for killing armour but this will really struggle against troop heavy armies.  As already commented upon, getting stuck in a tarpit will really hurt you doing anything interesting with this lot.  Perhaps consider taking some more anti-troop weapons on a few of your Dreadies to help thin out some of those enemy troops after you knock out their Rhino or Landraider.  

 

 

 

Most of the other gun options aren't too exciting. My thought was just to focus down on cracking 2+ armor and tank at range. I could opt for Plasma or Kheres? I had the latter in my original lists. The good thing is that swapping arm loadouts is super easy, so as I find my needs changing, I can just tweak it.

 

4 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

3x Seekers with scorpius rounds, plasma gun squads, and a healthy veteran squad or three will make short work of this list. Toss in some thunder hammers and you'll see dreads arent that big of a deal...

It really just depends on what you think you're going to be placed against in GTs. 

I'm more interested in why the dreads don't have targeting arrays but the recon squads do. Bare bones Recon squads with nemesis bolters and scanners aren't very good. Especially once they get pinned from Deep Strike.

The Scanners on the Recons is so they can shoot through Night Fight and be bubbles to push infiltrators back. Worth the points. Also, they aren't good? That is news to me. Small Recon squads are Line and Nemesis shooting can often pin a squad you are shooting at, which is very helpful to get off charges with the Dreads. They are such a great backfield objective camping squad.

The Dreads don't have HTAs because they require them to not move to use it. Maybe one or two could be useful just so I have a couple of AA solutions. If I swap a few guns to Kheres from Las, I can probably fit one or two.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

2 hours ago, oldhat said:

 

Most of the other gun options aren't too exciting. My thought was just to focus down on cracking 2+ armor and tank at range. I could opt for Plasma or Kheres? I had the latter in my original lists. The good thing is that swapping arm loadouts is super easy, so as I find my needs changing, I can just tweak it.

 

The Scanners on the Recons is so they can shoot through Night Fight and be bubbles to push infiltrators back. Worth the points. Also, they aren't good? That is news to me. Small Recon squads are Line and Nemesis shooting can often pin a squad you are shooting at, which is very helpful to get off charges with the Dreads. They are such a great backfield objective camping squad.

The Dreads don't have HTAs because they require them to not move to use it. Maybe one or two could be useful just so I have a couple of AA solutions. If I swap a few guns to Kheres from Las, I can probably fit one or two.

I've yet to see Recon Marines do anything of substance in all of the games I've played. If you need to move them they are snap firing, countering infiltrators is good sure, and being able to snipe is okay, but 2.5 hits with a 1-2 wounds with mitigation rolls on turn 1 night fighting isn't swell. Doubling the fact they have an opportunity to be obliterated in return fire just doesnt sit well with me. I'd rather field seekers, especially with how much line already have.

Shooty contemptors should probably have targeting arrays. Just be aware that there is a lot of counters to dread-heavy lists that your current load outs can't do a lot too.

[oldhat]

20 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I've yet to see Recon Marines do anything of substance in all of the games I've played. If you need to move them they are snap firing, countering infiltrators is good sure, and being able to snipe is okay, but 2.5 hits with a 1-2 wounds with mitigation rolls on turn 1 night fighting isn't swell. Doubling the fact they have an opportunity to be obliterated in return fire just doesnt sit well with me. I'd rather field seekers, especially with how much line already have.

Shooty contemptors should probably have targeting arrays. Just be aware that there is a lot of counters to dread-heavy lists that your current load outs can't do a lot too.

With their range, a lot of units won't be return firing with many weapons and Shroud Bombs push that even further back. Not sure what you are talking about with the T1 Night Fighting and Damage Mitigation rolls - they would need to Evade to get Shrouded, which gives them a 5+. They get that Reaction once (barring exceptions) and that also means they won't be able to use it elsewhere, which can be a useful tactic to get them to commit early and then not have that save against my other shooting.

I have two Deredeos with HTAs already. I kinda forgot about those! They'll drop flyers with no effort and should cause a major hurting on vehicles too. I am still debating on if they should go for the Plasma option or not though.

For the counter examples listed, I swing before Terminators w/ THs and have Brutal (3). With four attacks on the charge and solid ranged shooting to whittle down those types of threats (lots of AP2 forcing them onto 4++ or 5++ saves), I should be able to wipe a few at Initiative before getting beat up - which will be painful, for sure. Seekers with Scorpius rounds are still only S5 with Breaching, meaning they need 6+ to wound the Dreads (which will be at AP2). So a 10-man squad will only really land on average 1-2 wounds on a Dreadnought at AP2 (which then goes to my 5+ invuln save). Now Rending would be a whole different problem as that auto-wounds. Same logic for most Plasma weapons as well.

I am not saying there aren't counters - there are plenty. I just think Dreads have a solid all-round durability that makes them shine. Lots of Rending and AP1 & AP2 firepower can cause them headaches. Meltabombs are also a concern.

What are the thoughts on going dual CCW for the Pod Levi? I worry that it won't earn back its points as it will only get into combat at T3 at the earliest, leaving 2-3 game turns to really do work or otherwise its a waste. I think the CML is the best weapon it has, but then I feel like I should go for the Drill since its tuned to anti-tank... but I really think Brutal is important for CC to tear up elite infantry. Tough decision!

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Most tournament/event lists are going to run apothecaries in their armies. Unless you roll rending wound precision shots on them they are getting armor saves + mitigation rolls, if they are in ruins they are getting a cover save. Recon marines with augury scanners need to be infiltrating mid field to counter opposition infiltrators/scout movements.

Scorpius rounds are Assault 1 Breaching (4+) 

With regards to things like Thunder Hammer terminators, you are more than likely going to see biomancy enhanced versions meaning Brutal (3) may not double out the terminators. And really you only need a WS6 Praetor or WS 5 chaplain with thunder hammer to kill a dread outright.

Per the drop pod dread, he can be ran like that, or as a counter to protect your Deredeos as your troop dreads work the field. Alternatively you can stick him in the middle of the board and slingshot him forward for turn 2 by using your move forward reaction.

[oldhat]

41 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

Most tournament/event lists are going to run apothecaries in their armies. Unless you roll rending wound precision shots on them they are getting armor saves + mitigation rolls, if they are in ruins they are getting a cover save. Recon marines with augury scanners need to be infiltrating mid field to counter opposition infiltrators/scout movements.

Scorpius rounds are Assault 1 Breaching (4+) 

With regards to things like Thunder Hammer terminators, you are more than likely going to see biomancy enhanced versions meaning Brutal (3) may not double out the terminators. And really you only need a WS6 Praetor or WS 5 chaplain with thunder hammer to kill a dread outright.

Per the drop pod dread, he can be ran like that, or as a counter to protect your Deredeos as your troop dreads work the field. Alternatively you can stick him in the middle of the board and slingshot him forward for turn 2 by using your move forward reaction.

Nemesis are Rending 5+, which is part of what makes them appealing. My plan is to use them to make big bubbles on my flanks to keep our infiltrators by spreading out with Skirmish. 

Scorpius rounds still need to roll to-wound and trigger Breaching on a 4+. It's not an auto wound like Rending. Since it's S5 shooting at -1S against a T7 model, it's gonna need a 6 to wound, which would automatically trigger breaching. 

Yeah, we can start making a lot of very specific hypothetical units that would kill a single Contemptor. My point is that Hammernators aren't that scary because Dreads swing at Initiative. Even on T5 for the terminators, you're wounding on 2's and each one of those requires three 4++ or 5++ saves. That's solid. If they aren't buffed with +1T they're dead on any failed save. Otherwise, it's still a decent chance at killing it via wounds. 

I'll maybe try it without a pod sometime. It's so slow though I wonder if it'll slog fast enough to get into combat before T3 that way too. Good idea though to see.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

3 minutes ago, oldhat said:

Nemesis are Rending 5+, which is part of what makes them appealing. My plan is to use them to make big bubbles on my flanks to keep our infiltrators by spreading out with Skirmish. 

Scorpius rounds still need to roll to-wound and trigger Breaching on a 4+. It's not an auto wound like Rending. Since it's S5 shooting at -1S against a T7 model, it's gonna need a 6 to wound, which would automatically trigger breaching. 

Yeah, we can start making a lot of very specific hypothetical units that would kill a single Contemptor. My point is that Hammernators aren't that scary because Dreads swing at Initiative. Even on T5 for the terminators, you're wounding on 2's and each one of those requires three 4++ or 5++ saves. That's solid. If they aren't buffed with +1T they're dead on any failed save. Otherwise, it's still a decent chance at killing it via wounds. 

I'll maybe try it without a pod sometime. It's so slow though I wonder if it'll slog fast enough to get into combat before T3 that way too. Good idea though to see.

You're right about the scorpius rounds. I think nemesis bolters are probably the better option to face dreads since they rend on 5+.

As far as melee and contemptor dreads go, I've played enough games with and against biomancy lead units with apothecaries to see that 3-4 attacks isn't that great and makes single contemptors easy to deal with. You have to push with 2 in order to deal enough damage, or force target priority. Just always be on the look out for that. Thunder hammer Praetor lead jump pack squads, or bike squads can & will easily kill a contemptor a turn and are mobile enough to do it.

Leviathans on the other hand...those are the scary dudes. That being said I would 100% playtest your army to get your niche.

If you already have this army, play against several other like minded lists that are formulated to handle your list.  

[oldhat]

13 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

You're right about the scorpius rounds. I think nemesis bolters are probably the better option to face dreads since they rend on 5+.

As far as melee and contemptor dreads go, I've played enough games with and against biomancy lead units with apothecaries to see that 3-4 attacks isn't that great and makes single contemptors easy to deal with. You have to push with 2 in order to deal enough damage, or force target priority. Just always be on the look out for that. Thunder hammer Praetor lead jump pack squads, or bike squads can & will easily kill a contemptor a turn and are mobile enough to do it.

Leviathans on the other hand...those are the scary dudes. That being said I would 100% playtest your army to get your niche.

If you already have this army, play against several other like minded lists that are formulated to handle your list.  

Oh yeah! Gotta dogpile those elite infantry units. Can't let them swing or I will hurt for it.

And yeah, I agree. Gotta see how best to make that Leviathan work. If I don't use a Pod, I can potentially find space to fit another footslogging one into the list giving me a more durable (albeit very slow) threat.

I am still buying parts to the army. It isn't a cheap investment - especially when I already have two other armies, both of which needed more stuff to make them legal/functional.

This hobby is killer on the wallet.

[Imren]

Recon marines need to played in a certain way to be efficient. You need to camp them in ruins (preferably on higher floors/rooftops etc) or other terrain that gives them a 4+ cover save (+1 added on cover saves from skirmish-rule and 5+ from ruins) , If you shoot them with AP4 or worse they get their 3+ save, if you shoot them with AP3 or better they get their 4+ cover save which is quite good and saved my recons alot during a event I went to this weeekend. 

Especially if you play Alpha legion you need to roll a 9+ to successfully charge them when you stand 1" away from them (6" from shroud bombs, 2" from AL special rule and 1" minimum distance they have to stay away from enemy models, total 9") , if they are up on a roof or higher floors than ground thats additional inches added to the charge. 

I managed to pin a terminator squad two inches away from my recons dying to charge me. even if I'd fail to pin them they needed to roll a 10+ on their charge roll. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Imren