Concussive weapons and Overwatch

[GarvielEisenhorn]

According to the wording of the Concussive rule, the leadership test is taken at the end of the Shooting Phase (if it was a shooting attack) or at the end of the current combat (if it was a melee attack). What happens then, if I were to use a Concussive weapon (such as an Astartes Shotgun) to fire Overwatch in the Assault Phase?

[SkimaskMohawk]

At best, it'd force a LD check at the end of the next shooting phase. At worst, nothing.

[tinpact]

That's a funny interaction - after making a successful charge and fighting: "oh, wait a minute guys, we're supposed to be concussed!"

[Lord Krungharr]

Ooh I've been hunting for Concussive shooting attacks.  The possibility of striking last in combat is potent (as experienced in Age of Sigmar).  Worth looking into for my Raven Guard/IronHands combo force.

[SkimaskMohawk]

7 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Ooh I've been hunting for Concussive shooting attacks.  The possibility of striking last in combat is potent (as experienced in Age of Sigmar).  Worth looking into for my Raven Guard/IronHands combo force.

It doesn't make things strike last anymore; it's a modifier to weapon skill if they fail a leadership test.

Still pretty decent, but the guns are kind of...odd on what gets it.

[Lionsbane]

Reactions cannot cause Leadership checks due to casualties. No rulebook on me. Does concussive require a wound to be dealt, or just a model to be hit? If it requires a wound to be dealt then no it will not work on overwatch. 

 

[Brother_Angelus]

3 hours ago, Lionsbane said:

Reactions cannot cause Leadership checks due to casualties. No rulebook on me. Does concussive require a wound to be dealt, or just a model to be hit? If it requires a wound to be dealt then no it will not work on overwatch. 

 

Reactions can't cause Morale checks, but the can cause Pinning, and presumably other leadership based checks which aren't specifically Morale checks.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

We have played it where reactions do not cause secondary effects such as pinning, or concuss.

[SkimaskMohawk]

13 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

We have played it where reactions do not cause secondary effects such as pinning, or concuss.

Based on what rule?

@Brother_Angelus technically they don't cause leadership tests due to casualties, not morale. In practice, this doesn't stop anything that caused leadership tests, as pinning is triggered off failed save and concussive is triggered off successful wound.

Edited August 12, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Dont-Be-Haten]

We believe the intention is that you should still be able to charge. Being pinned would stop the charge and thus would cause a break in the game state, where there is no rule to explain the following or continuation of sequence of events.

[SkimaskMohawk]

45 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

We believe the intention is that you should still be able to charge. Being pinned would stop the charge and thus would cause a break in the game state, where there is no rule to explain the following or continuation of sequence of events.

That's uh...certainly a claim. Completely wrong of course.

 

 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Man dude, you really come off as cringe sometimes.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I find it pretty cringey to not read the rules and participate in a rules thread lol. Like really, there's reactions, charges, and pinning to look through to cover all the bases. 

"we don't think it's the intent because there's no rules for it" 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I mean 2.0 hasn't been out very long. We make mistakes. My guy, you are so jumped to belittle every. Single. Individual. You do not agree with. There's such a better way to come across rather than the condescending methods that you have taken with multiple Individuals. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Its been out for two months, which is plenty of time to own the book and get some games in.

I don't expect anyone to know all the rules or get them perfect in-game. But due-diligence is very important all the same; if a confusing interaction or rules issue comes up in game and seems off, check it out properly after the game. Look up what all the rules that contribute to the interaction say to get the full picture. It takes like 5 minutes with the paper rule book.

When it comes to discussing these rules online, theres a good faith expectation that the due diligence has been done. You can't properly participate in a conversation about how X interacts with Y, if you aren't familiar with Y. Making assertions without that due-diligence should be called out and corrected.

And you're always free to hit ignore if you don't like what I have to say.

[The Unseen]

RAI, I would say it "should" work like pinning, in that you check before you finish their charge move. Its pretty clear they only wanted you to have one chance to fail concussive per phase, but multiple chances to fail pinning (but just once per unit causing pinning) I don't know why they did it that way, but they did.

So discuss among your group whether it should trigger after the charge but before combat, or not at all. Cause RAW its pretty broken, because overwatch happens during the opponents phase, but since it IS a shooting attack, RAW they take a leadership test on your next shooting phase the following player turn. And I think we can all agree that's nonsensical.

I'm a fan of having it work like pinning, roll their leadership either before or after the charge move, it doesn't matter, and the effects will last during the assault that follows. If only because shotguns are one of the primary methods of bringing ranged concussive, and it would kind've be sad if they didn't get to use the whole point of bringing them with overwatch.

[General Zodd]

The one that has me scratching my head is Graviton Guns. I have one on my Breacher Squad, mainly for Overwatch given its short range. So the rules that don’t apply in Overwatch seems to be Concussive, as discussed above (though that seems like an oversight, that’s what the rules say) and the Difficult Terrain effect, given that the charge distance and success has already been determined when you get to Overwatch.

However, what about the Dangerous Terrain effect? Does that take the precedent of the Difficult Terrain not applying as the charge has already “completed”, or do any relevant members of the charging unit now have to take Dangerous Terrain tests?

[Lionsbane]

On Page 159 of your rulebook,  the third Paragraph down in the right column. It states "Shooting attacks do not cause LEADERSHIP tests due to casualties inflicted upon enemy units".  Do pinning weapons require a wound to be dealt and then a Leadership test to be taken? Shooting attacks cannot cause pinning in reactions. You can become pinned during reactions yes. I would suggest the most common occurrence would be Telepathic Hallucinations, which while a shooting attack, does not cause wounds. If they had meant Morale checks only, they would have needed to only say Morale checks. It clearly states Leadership checks however.  

Concussive works the same, as it requires wounds to be inflicted as stated in the rules. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

You don't take leadership tests due to casualties from reactions.

But neither pinning nor concussive require you to inflict casualties to activate. Pinning is inflicting an unsaved wound, while concussive is simply succeeding the wound roll. If my sniper model overwatched a terminator unit and takes a wound off, that activates pinning, while clearly not causing a casualty. If my shotgun model intercepts and causes a wound that's saved, then the conditions for concussive is met to cause a test down the line (again, with no casualties).

[Brofist]

I respect SkimaskMohawk and your passion for rules, but you do come off like a dick in these rules threads sometimes. I have other friends on these forums that avoid posting because of that, which is unfortunate. Maybe there's a better way to tell people they're wrong and you know the rules better?

[tinpact]

You guys are right, but I'd bet on pigs flying before I bet on Skimask being wrong about core rules interactions.

At any rate, how much value does Concussive shooting have, anyway?

The WS penalty is nice, but I can see getting it off reliably being difficult since you only get one chance per unit per phase. The best (only?) case I can think of is scouts/recons with ~2-4 shotguns in a melee legion as a cheap trading unit. It's probably worth putting one or two THs in your Terminator squads too since they're most likely to get stuck in protracted fights where the WS debuff will have the most effect, but that's not a ranged weapon (...usually ). Maybe Night Lords could take advantage of Ld debuffs to get reliable Concussive procs?

As I see it, a dedicated Concussive unit is a trap both to run in your list and to charge with your units since a) you only need one wound and b) shotguns and graviton guns are outranged by pretty much every anti-Astartes weapon, so Overwatch is a non-issue (the interaction is still wonky, but I think it's a strange rule anyway - would it be too good if it took effect immediately, or at least the phase it was done in?).

Edited August 14, 2022 by tinpact
looked through the rules a little more

[Gorgoff]

22 hours ago, General Zodd said:

The one that has me scratching my head is Graviton Guns. I have one on my Breacher Squad, mainly for Overwatch given its short range. So the rules that don’t apply in Overwatch seems to be Concussive, as discussed above (though that seems like an oversight, that’s what the rules say) and the Difficult Terrain effect, given that the charge distance and success has already been determined when you get to Overwatch.

However, what about the Dangerous Terrain effect? Does that take the precedent of the Difficult Terrain not applying as the charge has already “completed”, or do any relevant members of the charging unit now have to take Dangerous Terrain tests?

Page 182 talks about this.

You move the initial charger and if he dies because of Dangerous Terrain you just tske the next model and try again. 

The thing is. You roll for charge distance just to see it the charge is succesful and before Overwatch and so on happens. I see it like that it is just for the distinction wether or not you can move full charge roll towards the enemy or a surge move is done. That's it. So you your charge could be succesful but your models could still fail to reach the enemy. 

[Bung]

On 8/13/2022 at 8:29 AM, General Zodd said:

The one that has me scratching my head is Graviton Guns. I have one on my Breacher Squad, mainly for Overwatch given its short range. So the rules that don’t apply in Overwatch seems to be Concussive, as discussed above (though that seems like an oversight, that’s what the rules say) and the Difficult Terrain effect, given that the charge distance and success has already been determined when you get to Overwatch.

However, what about the Dangerous Terrain effect? Does that take the precedent of the Difficult Terrain not applying as the charge has already “completed”, or do any relevant members of the charging unit now have to take Dangerous Terrain tests?

You cant even use the Graviton Guns for Overwatch.

As they a are blast weapons they cant do Snap Shots.

Or are you talking about the IH Grav Shredders?

Edited August 14, 2022 by Bung

[General Zodd]

15 minutes ago, Bung said:

You cant even use the Graviton Guns for Overwatch.

As they a are blast weapons they cant do Snap Shots.

Or are you talking about the IH Grav Shredders?

Is that a hangover from the previous rules? Overwatch is at full BS now, I thought?

[tinpact]

3 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

You roll for charge distance just to see it the charge is succesful and before Overwatch and so on happens.

This. The charge roll gets resolved, and then you decide to make a Reaction or not, before any models are moved. So, any effects like Graviton Pulse that take place immediately are already in effect when the charging unit makes their charge move. Likewise for Pinning, since it specifies that it happens as soon as a shooting attack is finished (why didn't they use that wording for Concussive?), so a unit can become Pinned while charging.