Khorne Daemons of Khorne Rules Previews:

[Khornestar]

These rules are just awesome:

Improvements to Flesh Hounds, Skulltaker, and an absolutely slick stratagem for BLOODLETTER keyword models:

And the previously posted Bloodletter buffs:

 

I AM HYPED!

[Cheex]

These changes all sound fine, and I like that Bloodletters are now quite a bit tougher. T4 and a 4++++ against shooting isn't bad, depending on points.

My only concern is the rumour that units will now be limited to 10-strong, which dampens that Stratagem somewhat IMHO. 2CPs is a lot to move 6", especially since it can't even be used to get into engagement range. It will have its uses, but it just seems like a high cost for only a handful of models.

I'm very curious to see how this Codex pans out. We're in such a dire state right now that it feels like anything would be better than nothing, but I really want to love my Daemons again!

[The Neverborn]

18 hours ago, Cheex said:

4++++

Four Pluses! Is that how we are going to indicate it?

One is save, two is Inv, Three is PNFP, four is Daemon?

Kind of feels that Deamon isn't as as good as PNFP as as far as i'm aware you can't use it against mortals?

[Cheex]

On 8/11/2022 at 6:38 AM, Battle Brother Abderus said:

Four Pluses! Is that how we are going to indicate it?

I suppose "DSv4+" would've made more sense, but it was also a bit of a dig at GW's habit of layering rules 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Or 4++*

[LameBeard]

4+^4?

 

[Khornestar]

4+plus?

[Special Officer Doofy]

Or just do the profile, like 5+/4+. Daemon saves will be the only one with two values.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Might be a bit confusing when the current standard is to put the saves all together - for example, a set of saves might be indicated as 3+/5++/6+++ (3+ armour save, 5+ invulnerable and 6+ feel no pain).

Maybe with the use of brackets?  So, a demon prince with the warlord feel no pain could be indicated as 3+[4/5++]6+++.

[Cheex]

Easiest might just be "D4+/D5+". If that unit also had a 5+ FNP-type save, it would be written as "D4+/D5+/5+++".

[Special Officer Doofy]

Well they can't have an invuln or a normal save, and can only get FNP from traits or spells most likely, so you can just do 5+/4+/5+++. It won't come up often.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I think the 2 +s (so 4++) would make the most sense as it is still a form of invulnerable, its just one that isn't constant and which works for mortal wounds as well.

Come to think of it, there are number of sources of "mortal wounds only" saves now - has that gotten a shorthand?

So, maybe something like 3+/D4-5++/6+++?  Given that we are using the / to seperate save types, it makes sense to use something else (I used a - ) to seperate the 2 levels of demon save.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Special Officer Doofy]

7 minutes ago, Dr_Ruminahui said:

I think the 2 +s (so 4++) would make the most sense as it is still a form of invulnerable, its just one that isn't constant and which works for mortal wounds as well.

Come to think of it, there are number of sources of "mortal wounds only" saves now - has that gotten a shorthand?

So, maybe something like 3+/D4-5++/6+++?  Given that we are using the / to seperate save types, it makes sense to use something else (I used a - ) to seperate the 2 levels of demon save.

The Daemon save works on mortal wounds? I didn't know that. Which profile do you use for MW? Depending if they are within 1" of engagement range or not?

[Dr_Ruminahui]

That was the rumour - can't remember if its been confirmed or not, so I could be wrong.

That said, the GW released materials have indicated that they have one save for "ranged attacks" and the other, seemingly, for everything else - so if the rumours are correct, I would imagine its the "everything else" save that would apply.

Oh, and something I missed commenting on - while most models wouldn't have a meaningful armour save (as in one that is greater than their invul), certain units could - given the armour on the demon prince model we've seen, I would be surprised if it didn't have a 3+ like its CSM cousin.  As well, there is a certain value of using a system that is the same for that used by other armies rather than simply coopting the 1 + to be for the new save (rather than ++) as that is likely to generate confusion.

Incidentally, GW posted what warp storm is - not really enough there for an opinion yet: 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/08/12/whip-up-the-storm-of-the-millennium-with-codex-chaos-daemons/

Edited August 15, 2022 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Special Officer Doofy]

You think some (at least Daemon Prince) will have a normal save as well? The Daemon save is on the datasheet line where the normal armor save is. I don't think they will have a normal save, I'm not sure how that will work with a Daemon Prince but we have seen the same unit across different codexes before with different Stat lines so that's not surprising to me.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I think that's just how they are presenting the stat line to present it as something bold and new - I would be shocked if they actually altered the stat line to have something different than an armour save at the end of it - seems like something strange to do for just one army.  So, yes, I think demons (where appropriate) will continue to have normal saves as well.  So, even if the codex demons demon prince has a different save than the codex chaos space marines one does (which I agree is totally feasible, though personally I think it is less like as the upcoming demon prince seems to be equally armoured for both 40K and AoS unlike the old model), I would expect that it still does have an armour save.  Rather, I would expect it to be presented just like the demon prince in the new CSM codex, which gives an armour save in its stat line and then a special rule that gives it 2 different invulnerable saves depending on the situation.

Really, despite GW's hype that this is an entirely new and different kind of save, its not.  Its just a conditional invulnerable save, which has plenty of precident - its exactly what both flavours of knights have had since at least the beginning of 8th ed. (I suspect since they have existed, but I hadn't seen their rules until 8th).  Now, if they also work against mortal wounds, I suppose one could argue that they are a new type of save, for although that has existed previously (and there are several examples in both the new CSM and chaos knights codexes), its so far been more like a conditional FNP than a save.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I don't know. My gut tells me that's their save. The article says the daemonic save replaces their invuln save with two different unmodifiable saves, one for melee one for ranged. Nothing about MW either. I don't think they will have a normal armor save. I don't think they would have put the daemonic save on the datasheet line if it was like an invuln, they would have put it as a rule keeping the old regular armor save. And it's different than a regular invuln, as things that bypass invuln saves won't bypass the daemonic save according to the article. All the leaks for units so far show daemonic saves as well and no normal saves.

In 9th edition with ap being on everything except the old bolter, I much rather have a 4++ against ranged than a 3+/5++ of the old Daemon Prince. Time will tell! Hopefully only a few weeks out. I'm just happy there's a rumor from Wallace about removing the limit on greater daemons. While not fluffy in the slightest, mono daemons (specially nurgle, not 100% sure for khorne) have almost nothing that can pack a punch short of the greater daemons and soul grinders (and I'm not a fan of the soul grinder model haha).

[Tokugawa]

Lesser daemons definitely don't have armor save anymore. Some big ones may have extra rules like "this model also has 3+ armor save".

[Khornestar]

18 hours ago, DeStinyFiSh said:

More from Discord:

Alright, guess what time it is? Bloodthirster time - one of the most improved units in the codex, though considering how he was previously that's not a high bar. As many of you know, bloodthirsters are now consolidated into a single datasheet with different weapon options instead of having 3 different datasheets. So let's start with the basic statline:

20 wounds, 12" move w/fly, 2+ WS/BS, S8 T7, 8 attacks, 4+/4+ daemon save. In terms of degrading, he decreases in attacks (but only 1 per bracket), move, and weapon skill.

Weapon options are where things get interesting. You can either go for a big axe or a small axe and either a flail or whip. However no matter what you go for, you get the hellfire breath as effectively a free heavy flamer.

If you go with a big axe, you'll get a S16 AP-4 D3+3 damage strike, or a sweep that doubles your attacks at S8 AP-3 D2. However if you go for the smaller axe, you're looking at a strike of S12 AP-4 D6 damage, or a sweep that doubles your attacks at S8 AP-3 D1

Of course if you go for the small axe you can choose a flail or lash to accompany it, both 12" ranged weapons. The lash will give you 6 shots at s8 ap-1 d2, while the flail will only give you a single shot at S16 AP-4 3D3 damage, but any excess damage from this shot spills over

So what if you want you some psychic defense? That 4+/4+ isn't gonna help vs wizards. Luckily the Armor of Scorn very much will - a relic that can only go on Khorne monsters, but gives +1 toughness and a whopping 4+++ against psychic mortals. What if instead, you think the flail is really cool but you hate the unreliability of D6 damage? Skullreaver has you covered - it replaces a small axe, but when you make a strike attack against monsters or vehicles, you get to make it at S16 AP-4 D3+3 damage instead for that juicy profile.

Finally, let's say you're looking to make enemies truly spooked. Well for that, you're looking at the Aspect of Death warlord trait - while an enemy is within 6" of you, they get -1 leadership and -1 combat attrition. Decent alone, but where this gets fun is it stacks with the base aura of -1 leadership and -1 combat attrition within 6" that all daemons get. Suddenly your opponents are needing to roll a 5+ on their combat attrition not to run screaming if they were below half strength, a good way to finish off some pesky survivors.

OH THIS IS FUN!

I have never been more excited to play daemons. My only frustration is how short the edition is likely to last after the release of this book. That being said, holy cow! Of course let's see all things in context, but this is shoring up some real weaknesses in the Daemons of Khorne list (in costly ways, one assumes).

I haven't kept track of whether it seems the rumors saying multiple greater daemons can be taken or can't be taken are more valid, but if multiples can be taken and the lesser daemons aren't too expensive, we may finally have a potent pure Khornate list.

[Blight1]

I've been following the rumors and I haven't heard anything about daemon saves working on mortal wounds.  I've heard about ways to give FNP style saves against psychic for Khorne and general after saves for Nurgle via psychic powers.