How are you finding the performance of your Kratos?

[Captain Idaho]

Howdy all.

How have people found the Kratos to be performing? And against what sorts of enemies?

What sort of combinations and army builds do you use it in, for context?

Edited August 9, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[Toldavf]

It's a nice paper weight. It's not good enough to see play though. 

 

[Captain Idaho]

Ah really? I mean, it's got lots of gunz and 2+ save with T8 

Don't make me a sad panda, Toldavf! Change reality!

[MasterOfAardvarks]

I mean, I prefer RTS to hack-and-slash games, but the nostalgia was great, and that beard!

Terrible joke aside, it has surprised me. Marine tanks are still subpar, but at least the glass jaw seems to be made of sterner stuff. In more focussed terms, my Kratos goes to war toting Volkites, and the sheer volume of mortal wounds a good round of rolling can drum up is very intimidating. I've killed plenty of stuff, but none of it is worth all of that investment. The meltas look promising, but what needs that much melta to kill? The cannon just feels like what a battle cannon should be anyway, poor guard can't catch a break this edition.

[Toldavf]

It's just over priced something about the vehicle keyword makes GW just tack a bucket of extra points on for nothing for its price you can get 2 Tyranofexes which are as tough and have between them have way more firepower. 

 

Also who wants to pay CP in Nephilim for a subpar unit? It's hard enough to justify contemptors right now 

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by Toldavf

[Captain Idaho]

For Marines though is it subpar? Just other Codex books are criminally under costed.

[Orange Knight]

I've only used it in one of my 30k games and in that particular ruleset it performed very well.

I would definitely use it with my 40k Fists, however I have painted it blue as it's primarily for my budding Ultramarine HH army...

[DesuVult]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

For Marines though is it subpar? Just other Codex books are criminally under costed.

The current 40k ruleset grants it little support and marines are generally lacking in units with strong enough datasheets to stand on their own.  It is not an issue of other armies being undercosted but that it is insufficiently killy to make a noteworthy dent and that is all it can do while the Nephilim ruleset does not encourage killing.  You want to score primary and secondary objectives, being tabled and winning is entirely reasonable to some armies.  Though chapter dependent marines are still generally dependent on strategy and synergy of units.  Only standout units such as the chaplain on bike really break from this and even then, such as the chaplain on bike, they tend to grant some support to the army anyway.  In current listbuilding you need it to do something.  T8 2+ AoC W18 in an Iron Hands list it is extremely durable and could survive an entire game if positioned to take advantage of terrain when possible, but in an Iron Hands list what does it do?

[Orange Knight]

I disagree with the above sentiment, because a unit doesn't have to be the optimum mathematical choice at all times to be effective on the tabletop or be fun to use.

A Kratos used by the Iron Hands, supported by their bonus rules and psychic powers, is both durable and effective at range.

It's not going to be found at the top table of a tournament, but that's not the place where most games take place.

If you want to reduce the game to pure maths, then drop Marines entirely in favour of Bloody Rose Sisters of Battle.

[DesuVult]

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I disagree with the above sentiment, because a unit doesn't have to be the optimum mathematical choice at all times to be effective on the tabletop or be fun to use.

A Kratos used by the Iron Hands, supported by their bonus rules and psychic powers, is both durable and effective at range.

It's not going to be found at the top table of a tournament, but that's not the place where most games take place.

If you want to reduce the game to pure maths, then drop Marines entirely in favour of Bloody Rose Sisters of Battle.

I am not even approaching it from a question of optimal choices but it doing anything and feeling interactive.  Units that just bounce of enemies in my experience aren't fun.  I still regret the last game I brought my Cerberus because it pulled the rest of my army down with it that game and my opponent walked over me while I took a lesson in frustration.

[Majkhel]

I actually did use Kratos twice in a friendly game.
Each time I had a Techmarine with Master of the Forge upgrade nearby.

- It has lots of guns, but output is swingy even with the +1 to hit from the Techmarine. I've been using a mixed loadout of battlecanon, 2x lascanons+2x Volkite Calivers (sponsons), 1x MM at the top hatch. 
Battlecanon I took for number of shots. Lascanons, cause they are free and frankly the best option for those chibi-turrets. Calivers for the sponsons I took for the solid number of 2D shots (In both games I scored maybe 4MWs though despite Kratos surviving till the end each time, so don't count on those too much). MM I took cause it's a good gun and I had it modelled. If I were to squeeze for points, I might consider the combi-melta as it's free for the time.

- Armour of contempt adds A LOT to it's survivability, as does the fact that it needs to loose 9 wounds before it gets bracketed. Remember it also has access to Smokescreen. Still I believe Techmarine tax is a must to keep it going and to keep it's damage output meaningful.

- With 400+ pts invested, you will need to build your list and table setup around it. You have to screen it properly with Infantry and present other threats to the enemy as it will be a bullet magnet.

 

EDIT: one more thing - I was not using Nephilim rules in my games (Open Play with Tempest of War cards), so I had CPs to spare for the Martial Legacy. With Nephilim restrictions to initial CP pool, I don't think I would take it.

But it looks awesome ;)
 

Spoiler

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Majkhel

[Toldavf]

Slick paint job, Martial legacy needs to go the way of the dodo.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah seems outdated as a rule. Sure when 40K didn't have the rules it does, but blimey Forge World is underpowered now if anything!

@Majkhel it feels like the weaons aren't so decisive as they could. I'd probably focus on one sort of style - 4 Lascannons or 4 Volkite etc.

Anyway, yeah it is a big points investment if you need to pay for a Master of the Forge just for the pleasure of a big ol' tank that costs an additional CP.

Still, as a mandatory HQ you can save some points.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[Majkhel]

@Captain Idaho That's true with the weapons. I wanted flexibility (often facing GSC recently), but perhaps you are right that secondary armament would work better streamlined. Note however that Volkite Calivers have noticeably shorter range than other options. Them being only 2 shots each and no AP means their damage potential is pretty close to lascanons but their target range is narrower.
Would really like to try out the Volkite and Melta main gun options though.

Techmarine (especially the Primaris one) is a surprisingly good overall HQ. Even without Chapter Command upgrade, he will noticeably enhance any VEHICLE. Master of the Forge will pay it's points' cost back quickly

[Captain Idaho]

The all Volkite version is a potentially powerful build but a little reliant on 6s for my liking, simply because I roll a lot of 1s instead 

Reminds me of the old days of 3rd and 4th when the most powerful weapons were rending, with Assault Cannons being top of the heap.

They too relied upon 6s. So maybe I need to give the build a go.

I do like Lascannons though. I don't like the swingy nature of them, but being hit by 4 of them isn't a pleasant experience for anyone.

I think the weapons you add the army should perhaps mirror the role of the Kratos somewhat rather than provide a different element. The Kratos isn't too decisive with its secondary weapons in particular, the pintle Multi-melta being a big exception, so if you have 4 Lascannons on this guy, another 2 from a Dread, perhaps another couple in other places, you've all of a sudden got a combined battery of fire. 

Conversely, if you have all your long range anti-tank exclusively in the Kratos, it's a single big target that makes it very difficult to make up its worth to the rest of the army.

[War of the Eagle]

I think it's perfectly balanced for it's points. But dosent really have a wow factor. More like a big target on it. All the main guns need +1S at the minimum to make them really stand out 

[Captain Idaho]

I wish Autocannons were great again, as I love the idea of an ordnance heavy machine.

But that's just it I guess, no wow factor.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

AC should be AP2.

[Maggotlord]

14 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

But that's just it I guess, no wow factor.

 

It looks ace – enough WOW for me. ;)

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I like a big ol' war engine.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yer a WAR MACHEEEEEN !!!

[Captain Idaho]

I raise you from your slumber!

 

So revitalising this thread, what do we think about potentially taking multiple Kratos in an army?

 

The recent tournament win with the Astraeus and Guilliman got me thinking... what about taking 2 Kratos?

 

36 wounds, 2 targets to eliminate that can work together to pool firepower.

 

Would folk consider arming them the same or splitting the weapons and thus roles?

 

I'd generally lean with similar load outs. If I wanted 4 Heavy Bolters and 4 Lascannons, I'd be inclined to arm both with 2 of each so an opponent resistance to one of those weapons can't concentrate on just the single vehicle to reduce the impact of the Kratos. 

 

Thoughts guys?

[Karhedron]

I think there might be mileage. Guilliman and a Techmarine to buff/repair 2 Kratos is quite a lot of firepower.  I would probably opt for Melta turret, multimelta, 2 Lascannons and 2 Volkite Culverins for a good balance of firepower.

 

Alternatively, run them as Space Wolves and replace Guilliman with Njal Stormcaller. You lose the rerolls but you gain access to the Stormcaller psychic power which gives a 6" bubble of Light Cover. An effective 1+ save on T8 tanks with Armour of Contempt should make them pretty tough nuts to crack. They will get a 3+ save, even against anti-tank weapons like Lascannons.

[Captain Idaho]

Ooo that's a spicy meatball. Reckon Iron Hands could get some mileage out of a pair of them also.

 

In competitive games Guilliman is a tough model to turn down to be honest. In other games, I think I could make do without him but the drop in performance from the rerolls is costly.

 

I built one with the Kratos cannon because it looks rocking and is a fairly decent tank. If I take another, I'd go metla for sure.

[Karhedron]

34 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

In competitive games Guilliman is a tough model to turn down to be honest. In other games, I think I could make do without him but the drop in performance from the rerolls is costly.

 

Since the Kratos is not CORE, he will only give them rerolls of 1s to-Hit. Nice for sure but a pricey way to get it. What else does G-man bring for his 300 points?

 

• +3CPs - That pays the Martial Legacy cost for both Kratos (Kratii?)
• Formidable counter-charge if anyone tries to shut them down by charging them (situational)
• Buffs to any other UM units nearby (how much else can fit in his bubble besides the tanks?)