HH 2.0 The Knightly Fiefdoms: Knight Household Tactica

[Slips]

Thread for discussing the Knightly Houses.

[oldhat]

I absolutely hate listbuilding for this army now. At least 1200pt are just wasted on Armigers meaning I we are lucky to get 3 Knights into a list. Going from 6-7 down to 3 is a pretty radical change and is a bit heartbreaking. If we had Aspirants as troops options, that would be great. But this? Ughh.

Trying to fit in an Acastus Porphyrion? No way. Atrapos? Maybe. And all the character upgrades are quite pricey when the Knights are already super pricey themselves. Makes it hard to have a fun, thematic list with lots of variety.

Best looking Knight so far seems to be Magaera?

Anyone else having similar issues?

[Marshal Mittens]

You can fit 15 Armigers and 1 big night in a 3500pt list. This seems very good.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Marshall Mittens

[Noserenda]

Ooof, thats pretty sad when you see it pointed up. I was hoping you could still squeeze 4-5 knights into 3000pts

[The Scorpion]

I was hoping to field a pure Mechanicum Knight list, but it's impossible since the Household list doesn't have Moirax.

[oldhat]

34 minutes ago, The Scorpion said:

I was hoping to field a pure Mechanicum Knight list, but it's impossible since the Household list doesn't have Moirax.

I don't understand how that impacts list building. I've seen the reviews of the book and didn't see anything about specific houses having rules.

[corvus.calvariam]

Currently you can take Knights in two ways, first is through the Mechanicum list itself which has Moirax as Heavy Support, and Mechanicum Knight chassis as Lords of War.

The second way is the Knight House Divisio Tactica detachment which allows us to field Knights with household ranks etc. In the Divisio Tactica list, Moirax are not present at all. Therefore, if you wanted to field a full Knight house, you would not be able to use those models.

[oldhat]

12 minutes ago, raeho said:

Currently you can take Knights in two ways, first is through the Mechanicum list itself which has Moirax as Heavy Support, and Mechanicum Knight chassis as Lords of War.

The second way is the Knight House Divisio Tactica detachment which allows us to field Knights with household ranks etc. In the Divisio Tactica list, Moirax are not present at all. Therefore, if you wanted to field a full Knight house, you would not be able to use those models.

Oh yeah, the Moirax are the only ones kept out and I am really thinking that is an oversight. At least I hope so, since I have a couple and would love to be able to field them in my Knight list.

[corvus.calvariam]

I fear this means that their new direction is that Moirax are only available to indentured Mechanicum Knight Houses.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think they intend that Moirax are part of a Mechanicum force, not part of Questoris Knights.

[Noserenda]

Thats a bit ridiculous if true, any knight house can use the weird and valuable big mechanicum knights, but the "half step ahead of the peasant" Moirax suits are too precious to let out of a Mago's sight?

[corvus.calvariam]

The Moirax fluff references Questor High Marshals and their disdain of Moirax pilots and holding them at arms length, excluding them from courts etc. 

 

Quote

Among those houses indentured to the Mechanicum are talons of the Knight Moirax most frequently sent to battle, but even those Questor Masters without choice ensured that only their weakest noble lines and third sons were expended in the radioactive prison of a Moirax cockpit. Extended periods exposure to the Rad Furnace ticking at the heart of the machine and the resultant reactor leaks and critical anbaric malfunctions often led to the tainting of both a Moirax’s machine spirit and its pilot, resulting in Moirax knights being held at arm’s length by a Household and sequestered to vaults far from the frames of more honoured Knights. Those unfortunate pilots ordered to mount such a frame were considered lesser and expendable by their lords, and though every other courtesy was extended to them, they would be excluded from both their place at Questor Court and their right to extend the reach of their bloodline.

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by raeho

[WrathOfTheLion]

That's just what I read out of it, the book isn't released even for preorder yet in America yet and I certainly have not tried to piece together all the rules from random videos, so I could quite easily be inaccurate.

Edited August 16, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[oldhat]

3 minutes ago, raeho said:

The Moirax fluff references Questor High Marshals and their disdain of Moirax pilots and holding them at arms length, excluding them from courts etc. 

Probably a fluff reasoning to justify their kneejerk reaction to last edition's almost exclusive use of Moirax in Knight lists. Really the whole army feels like one big kneejerk reaction limiting it in as many ways as possible given its previous reputation.

On an aside, our of morbid curiosity during list brainstorming - you can take four Knights. They must all be bare-bones Aspirants (Thermal or BC + Chainsword). Then you fill out the list with bare-bones Armigers. 3k on the nose. Probably not worth taking the hit to WS/BS and movement on the big Knights, but I found it pretty hilarious (and hilariously boring).

[Noserenda]

2 hours ago, raeho said:

The Moirax fluff references Questor High Marshals and their disdain of Moirax pilots and holding them at arms length, excluding them from courts etc. 

 

 

Radiation aside they treat all armiger pilots spectacularly badly, even if they are being "nice" the whole setup kicks down at them with mind control and stuff, pretty grim dark you might say :D  

[oldhat]

Wow. I am thinking this is not an error but a design choice (and a bad one) to have two versions of the Magaera, Styrix, and Atropos - the AdMech versions with Flare Shields and IWND6+ and a slightly higher price tag vs the Househould ones which are lacking both. Essentially making them worse for no reason.

Every time I read more on the Knight list I start to dislike it more and more. Makes me sad that my dozen Knights are going to gather dust now.

ETA: And Battlesmiths can't repair Armigers! That has to be a rules flub because it makes zero sense to repair Dreads, Vehicles and Automata but not Armigers.

Edited August 22, 2022 by oldhat
More sad rules

[Noserenda]

Re: The Battlesmith thing i suspect thats just another thing they forgot armigers should do and itll be faq'd in with everything else like a dreadnought.

I didnt buy a copy after all the poor reviews but have they randomly squatted the Dominus knights? I dont think ive heard anyone talking about them? 

[Rejects of Anvilus]

Yes they are gone as well.

 

The other annoying thing about not being able to take the Moirax is that it’s the only customisable Armiger, without it you are stuck taking large numbers of just two different versions, shooty or close combat with no options for anything except them!

[oldhat]

So it seems now unavoidable to need an Allied detachment to flesh out the list. Any thoughts there? 

Also, has anyone done like a Knight rating rundown? I hear a lot of conflicting info on them and am curious if there's any consensus.

I'm currently looking at bringing in some Mechanicum just so I have a couple units with Battlesmith to keep my Knights alive longer. What do y'all think of that as a strategy? Point sink or good investment?

[Mandragola]

I tend to agree that this feels like sort of a thrown together list. My overall impression is that the designers had the objective of preventing knights from just smashing people with six or seven lords of war, so they've put in a hard mechanism to counter that. In all honesty I think that basic approach makes sense, but it's unfortunate that they've done it clumsily and without huge amounts of thought. The absence of Moirax from the knight list or Dominus altogether makes no sense other than FW wanting to sell people their resin instead of GW's plastic.

For someone taking knights as allies, weirdly your best bet is to take them from the Mechanicum list rather than the household one. It appears that you can just take a Lord of war from effectively any list you want, since there's no rule saying it has to be from the same faction as your primary detachment. So you may as well get the versions with flare shields - unless you want a Porphyrion.

The good news is that the knights themselves look very powerful. Essentially a Lord of War with a 4++ against most shooting is among the toughest models you can have. The Acastus may actually be the hardest things to kill that are available at 3k, with AV14, a 4++ at the front and potentially no reason to leave a protected corner. Their firepower is absolutely ludicrous. Nothing else in their price range can produce four S10 AP2 large blasts. The only downside to it is that it isn't a melee knight, meaning you'll generally only be sending two of those forward with your Armigers, so you might be easier to stop than if you had three guys advancing.

Armigers are a great Line unit to have. They're quick and tough, with reasonable damage output. It's a shame Contemptors are so awesome because it's true they make Armigers look a bit weak in comparison, but the speed and greater firepower should help Armigers stay in the game - not to mention the fact that few opponents will have six Contemptors.

It's weird that no knight melee weapons are Brutal. The Castigator's sword is almost the closest thing to that, thanks to deflagrate giving a chance of a second wound.

In general it seems to me that the Mechanicum knights are quite a bit ahead of the generic ones in terms of power. 

[The Scorpion]

On 8/17/2022 at 12:35 AM, oldhat said:

Probably a fluff reasoning to justify their kneejerk reaction to last edition's almost exclusive use of Moirax in Knight lists. Really the whole army feels like one big kneejerk reaction limiting it in as many ways as possible given its previous reputation.

On an aside, our of morbid curiosity during list brainstorming - you can take four Knights. They must all be bare-bones Aspirants (Thermal or BC + Chainsword). Then you fill out the list with bare-bones Armigers. 3k on the nose. Probably not worth taking the hit to WS/BS and movement on the big Knights, but I found it pretty hilarious (and hilariously boring).

Which is stupid, because they could've though of making Moirax a retinue, or simply include them without "Line".

 

You see this glorious pic right here?

It's impossible to field in-game. Mechanicum list has no Questoris, whereas Household list has no Moirax.

Edited August 24, 2022 by The Scorpion

[oldhat]

What are the thoughts on Aspirant Knights? Does the movement and WS/BS loss hurt too much?

Potentially we can squeeze in eight Armigers and four Aspirant Questoris Knights into a 3k list.

Is that enough to offset the Aspirant drawbacks?

[Mandragola]

On 9/6/2022 at 10:54 PM, oldhat said:

What are the thoughts on Aspirant Knights? Does the movement and WS/BS loss hurt too much?

Potentially we can squeeze in eight Armigers and four Aspirant Questoris Knights into a 3k list.

Is that enough to offset the Aspirant drawbacks?

This is an interesting one and I considered it myself. The penalties for being an Aspirant are pretty severe, though perhaps not so bad if you’re firing a blast or template weapon. The Castigator could also be worth a look because it can auto hit in melee - though only vs enemies actually touching it.

Having eight scoring Armigers sounds kind of awesome already to me. Four super-heavies as well would be even better. It could well be a powerful list; though maybe not a fun one. It’s obviously very spammy. 

[oldhat]

14 hours ago, Mandragola said:

This is an interesting one and I considered it myself. The penalties for being an Aspirant are pretty severe, though perhaps not so bad if you’re firing a blast or template weapon. The Castigator could also be worth a look because it can auto hit in melee - though only vs enemies actually touching it.

Having eight scoring Armigers sounds kind of awesome already to me. Four super-heavies as well would be even better. It could well be a powerful list; though maybe not a fun one. It’s obviously very spammy. 

I completely forgot about the Castigator. Probably a better choice than the Errant, especially if you spam Warglaives for antitank.

And yeah, super spammy. I blame GW for that. They designed these rules to be so restrictive, how else are we supposed to make a Knight list?

[TheNineteenth]

I don't even know where to start.

My collection is 5x Styrix, 1x Maegara, 1x Porphyrion and some built and primed Armigers with Autocannons I didn't get around to painting (but obviously will have to paint them all to run less than half of my Knights).

I guess over half of this collection just became megabattle only.

Edited September 17, 2022 by TheNineteenth