Command Squads

[Brother Kraskor]

In all their various guises, have you found success with them? Too expensive? How do you tool them?

My instinct is that Jump Pack and Jetbike command squads are just too expensive, especially once you start tooling them up. What loadouts work and what don't, how do you employ them?

[Uberlord Gendo]

I've found that with the 2+ from artificer armor, their 2w makes them a pain to remove. They can get tarpitted, though, so I think the mobility from bikes or packs is worth it.

[Brother Kraskor]

1 hour ago, Uberlord Gendo said:

I've found that with the 2+ from artificer armor, their 2w makes them a pain to remove. They can get tarpitted, though, so I think the mobility from bikes or packs is worth it.

Oh interesting so you'd say the mobility is actually necessary? What sort of gear are you giving them? In the vein of being a pain to remove, can always chuck in an Apothecary (and maybe even a Biomancer!) to make them even tougher, but ultimately no invul is going to make them suffer no?

Edited August 18, 2022 by Brother Kraskor

[Marshal Mittens]

The Terminator ones are decent, but usually the legion specific terminators that cam be a retinue ate better. The non power armored ones are a bit pricey. 

[Uberlord Gendo]

I'm still goofing around with weapons and really, I think it'll vary by legion-- no reason to take charnabal sabres in EC, etc, but yeah, I think mobility is key. Command Squads and their legion specific counterparts are some of the nastiest CC units in the game and while they are blenders, they can be tarpitted by the right units- Grave Wardens or Crimson Paladins come to mind, but really anything can get in your way. You also want to keep them away from certain units like Primarchs- you're right, that lack of an invuln can bite you, which is why you need to pick your fights. That means getting them where they're needed before the opponent can block you out.

One way to think of them is as a missile unit to launch at some prime target you want to remove, but since they've got that legion standard, they're scoring and hand it out to friends. That means that they can jump on a point and steal it at the last second or rush over just enough to give that other squad line. (Or a morale buff. Those are cool too.) Either way, mobility allows you to adapt to things over the course of the game.

You could stick them in a land raider, but that's more than twice as expensive as packs/bikes. At the moment, there doesn't seem to be too much that can wreck them in shooting, but that may change.

You can also give them combat shields for a 6++. I haven't tried it because I'm being picky about modelling, but it's not too expensive. I'm not sure how crucial it is, though. Most squads are going to bounce off the 2++ and saving 1 in 6 rending power sword blows seems meh. They're cheap, though, and you should be avoiding fights with squads that can tank you like cataphractii.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Uberlord Gendo

[SkimaskMohawk]

They unfortunately don't spread line, just the LD 10.

Jump packs are probably the best option, as the price is low, you can jump over intervening stuff without slowing/taking dangerous, and it also unlocks deepstrike. If the jetbike wasn't a horrific price and added to their stats like wargear consistently used to, then I'd say take them, but oh well. Keep in mind, your praetor can do a lot of heavy lifting with their Paragon blade or whatever you give them, but they do need to have the appropriate movement wargear to unlock it for the unit. 

[Brother Kraskor]

Charging out of deep strike with jump packs is a very tempting option. Sticking Line somewhere on the enemy's backfield is helpful too. Probably needs to be supported correctly though or they'll get blown to pieces.

[Mandragola]

I think a bike or jump pack command squad could work very well, as could infantry (of any kind) in a Land Raider. 

A squad of Line models with 2+ saves and 2 wounds each is no joke. WS5 makes them hard to remove, even for dedicated melee troops. For some Legios a command squad provides a fast, hard-hitting melee unit that isn't really available through any other unit. 

I think there's a really strong case for taking your first 5 terminators as a command squad if you can. They end up being only a 20 points more expensive than a normal squad of 5 It does mean having to take a Terminator Praetor, but I think that's fine.

They're better for some Legios than others. My Raven Guard would probably prefer to bring Deliverers rather than a command squad, most of the time. For my Imperial Fists they do look pretty interesting (particularly Tartaros with shields) but I still have alternatives, like Templars. 

[GarvielEisenhorn]

4 hours ago, Mandragola said:

It does mean having to take a Terminator Praetor, but I think that's fine.

Does it though? I just read through the rules for Master of the Legion and Retinue and it just says that you can take a command squad of any type with your MotL model as the leader. Unless I've missed something here.

[lost_angel]

10 minutes ago, GarvielEisenhorn said:

Does it though? I just read through the rules for Master of the Legion and Retinue and it just says that you can take a command squad of any type with your MotL model as the leader. Unless I've missed something here.

In HH V1 your warlord and his command squad needed to be kitted out the same way. Don’t think that’s still true this time around though. 

[Cruor Vault]

31 minutes ago, lost_angel said:

In HH V1 your warlord and his command squad needed to be kitted out the same way. Don’t think that’s still true this time around though. 

It's not a requirement anymore, but the interplay between rules like Heavy and Cataphractii's inability to sweep makes it pretty disadvantageous to mix and match (outside of Tartaros + Artificer Armor).

[SkimaskMohawk]

Kind of. You don't need to take a terminator character to get the terminator command squad any more (though you might want to with heavy, as @Cruor Vault mentioned). You do still need to have a master of the legion with Warhawk/spatha/scimitar to have the command squad with corresponding gear.

So Corax, sanguinius and mounted jaghatai still get screwed lol.

[Mandragola]

Well Corax is happy going with Dark Furies. Even if he was allowed a command squad they wouldn't be allowed fancy RG jump packs. Irritatingly, non-IC Raven Guard don't get access to those, meaning that attaching an apothecary to a Dark Fury squad slows them all down.

It's useful to know that you don't need to be a terminator to have a terminator command squad. I've been idly considering a Tartaros command squad for my Fists, armed with shields and hammers probably. I could put them with Alexis Pollux and they could all deep strike, or ride around in a Land Raider I suppose. That generally makes for a much more flexible set of options.

[SkimaskMohawk]

40 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

Well Corax is happy going with Dark Furies. Even if he was allowed a command squad they wouldn't be allowed fancy RG jump packs.

That's true, didn't think of it as the other two are always slowed down by their units.

[RoadRunna]

I watched 2 games on the weekend with WhiteScars and WorldEasters armies.  Both ran footslogging Command Squads with boarding shields.  While the WE army had a variety of weapons the WScar squad all had a lightning claw.  When speaking to both players they said that running them in this format was superior to a Tartaros command squad.. Having reflected on their comments and running my eyes over the rules I can't see any real "stand out" qualities for these boarding shield units vs the Tartaros versions.

 

Tartaros are +30 per model while a Boarding shield Chosen with a power weapon is 28 (18+5+5). While the BShield version grants you Heavy to help with blast, Tartaros grants you Inexorable and you can still run. 

 

Any thoughts on why my opponents thought the Shield versions were better?  

[Eternal Despair]

1 hour ago, RoadRunna said:

I watched 2 games on the weekend with WhiteScars and WorldEasters armies.  Both ran footslogging Command Squads with boarding shields.  While the WE army had a variety of weapons the WScar squad all had a lightning claw.  When speaking to both players they said that running them in this format was superior to a Tartaros command squad.. Having reflected on their comments and running my eyes over the rules I can't see any real "stand out" qualities for these boarding shield units vs the Tartaros versions.

 

Tartaros are +30 per model while a Boarding shield Chosen with a power weapon is 28 (18+5+5). While the BShield version grants you Heavy to help with blast, Tartaros grants you Inexorable and you can still run. 

 

Any thoughts on why my opponents thought the Shield versions were better?  

When taken as squads of 5 with both the arti armour + shield and tartaros command squads using power weapons they really are more or less the same with the tradeoff being as you said the ability for the Tartaros to run and sweep uninhibited versus the shields granting the Artificer armour unit Heavy for the re-rolls vs blast, the inability to run and -1 to sweeping advance. The last thing to consider is that Tartaros armour is bulky so it can be harder to give them a transport points wise, particularly if you wanted an extra support character like a chaplain, medicae etc. Depending on the delivery method, game plan, etc will help figure out which set of buffs works best for what you want/need.

Now where it gets more interesting is when you want to beyond the 1-1 comparison between units. The Tartaros Armour has 3 advantages over Artificer Command squad, First off in the event you want to run dual lightning claws you do not have to give up your invulnerable save to do so, which is frankly massive against other terminator units with AP2 since you can survive the inevitable swing back with power fists. The second benefit is the inexorable rule which all terminators have so that in the event you do lose combat you don't cop any negative modifiers to your leadership which will let you stick around longer in the fight. Last but not least is probably the biggest advantage Tartaros command squads have over the Artificer variants which is access to thunder hammers, with S8 and brutal 2 they are hands down the best generic weapon you can give your infantry when going up against other WS5 2+ 4++ units.

That's not to say the artificer command squad with boarding shields is without merit or it's own advantages. Like mentioned previously they get to re-roll their armour saves vs blast and have an easier time fitting in transports, but the biggest differentiator is the ability to go up to 9 members in total vs terminator command squads which are capped at 5, at the end of the day it's more bodies to chew through and more attacks to through at the enemy, granted you can take normal squads of terminators in units of up to 10 but then you loose out on the benefits of a command squad (WS5, Line etc).

While I've not made the unit yet I plan to include a 9 man Command squad all with boarding shield and power fists for my Raven Guard Drop Pod Assault list as I wanted to avoid using terminators, so the fact that they aren't bulky helps at the smaller points levels where I can't afford a Kharybdis or dreadclaw for the unit, they're slightly more durable than tartaros due to having the same defensive statline but with the added bonus of heavy, the same offensive output as tartaros with fists and last but not least since they gain the heavy sub-type they go from getting infiltrate and a 6+ shrouded when shot from more than 8 inches away to getting re-rolling 1's to wound on the charge from Falcons.

At the end of the day though in those specific scenarios you mentioned I don't see how running Boarding shields was better than Tartaros armour unless there's a significant amount of artillery they expected to come up against.
 

[SkimaskMohawk]

The other strength of the terminators is inexorable if your character is also a Terminator. Ya the banner gives fearless, but the banner gets sniped all the time. Being ld 10 without taking casualties from combat res is really, really helpful. 

 

That foot squad is one of the cheapest options for a build that can have mild survivability and output, but it feels like they're missing a lot of factors that eternal despair covered. 

 

Just remember for the boarding shield versions that your HQ has to have one too or he breaks the Heavy requirement. 

[SlickSamos]

Really interesting discussion!  I really like that the Boarding Shields and Combat Shields are appropriately costed for the Command Squad as it makes fluffy IF w/ Boarding Shields (with Pollux esp.) and SW w/ Combat Shields seem sensible options - as opposed to some other cases in the past where you were penalised for playing a cool squad.  

 

6 hours ago, RoadRunna said:

Tartaros grants you Inexorable and you can still run. 

The 'and still run' would be the reason to run Tartaros imo, but due to limited squad size and range of transport options, I can see why some would take a squad with Boarding Shields instead.  I would personally either accept that I don't have an Invulnerable Save or take a Combat Shield instead in exchange for being able to run.  

 

W.r.t. load outs (assuming we're not running a Boarding Shield squad) would it be worth taking one Charabal Sabre to diversify the squad's ability to take challenges?  (Assuming that they are already taking a couple of Powerfists with a mixture of other Power Weapons and Lightning Claws)

[Brother Sutek]

On 8/19/2022 at 4:17 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

They unfortunately don't spread line, just the LD 10.

Jump packs are probably the best option, as the price is low, you can jump over intervening stuff without slowing/taking dangerous, and it also unlocks deepstrike. If the jetbike wasn't a horrific price and added to their stats like wargear consistently used to, then I'd say take them, but oh well. Keep in mind, your praetor can do a lot of heavy lifting with their Paragon blade or whatever you give them, but they do need to have the appropriate movement wargear to unlock it for the unit. 

This is part of why my Ravenwing army is sitting on the shelf and I'm working on the rest of my Dark Angels.  Bike feel like they did back in 3rd edition 40k very pricey for what you get. I'll figure the list out eventually but the mass of jetbikes, including command squad and attack bikes are a huge point sink now. Command squads having artificer armour helps a bit as that makes them more durable but the loss of that toughness buff hurts. The cost is so high I dislike giving them any upgrades other than the banner as then they are even more of a juicy target. 

[Xenith]

On 8/23/2022 at 1:21 PM, Mandragola said:

I think there's a really strong case for taking your first 5 terminators as a command squad if you can.

 

I was going to say this - if you are running a MotL and would put them with the termies anyway, you might as well make them a command squad for WS5, chosen warriors and line, all of which are huge. The downside is you're capped at 5 if you want a dedicated LR transport, or need a free HS slot for a spartan. 

 

I'd not actually considered a boarding shield + power weapon unit. I was really thinking about a twin LC command squad and jumping around which would be fun, but the lack on invuln is offputting. I'd say you either need the survivability or mobility to pick and choose fights. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

54 minutes ago, Brother Sutek said:

This is part of why my Ravenwing army is sitting on the shelf and I'm working on the rest of my Dark Angels.  Bike feel like they did back in 3rd edition 40k very pricey for what you get. I'll figure the list out eventually but the mass of jetbikes, including command squad and attack bikes are a huge point sink now. Command squads having artificer armour helps a bit as that makes them more durable but the loss of that toughness buff hurts. The cost is so high I dislike giving them any upgrades other than the banner as then they are even more of a juicy target. 

 

2 wounds and 2+ armour base definitely make the bike option viable for the command squad, but that's about it. And ya, still pricey on the CS, but the same as jump pack instead of the huge 30 of the jetbike. Its actually the only time i think the spatha is better than the scimitar.

[suxdavide]

1 hour ago, Xenith said:

 

I was going to say this - if you are running a MotL and would put them with the termies anyway, you might as well make them a command squad for WS5, chosen warriors and line, all of which are huge. The downside is you're capped at 5 if you want a dedicated LR transport, or need a free HS slot for a spartan. 

 

 

Sadly there's no way to scale up to 9 with a terminator command squad.

However, give the the maximum size is 5, even with an IC the Land raider is still a viable choice.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

1 hour ago, Xenith said:

 

I was going to say this - if you are running a MotL and would put them with the termies anyway, you might as well make them a command squad for WS5, chosen warriors and line, all of which are huge. The downside is you're capped at 5 if you want a dedicated LR transport, or need a free HS slot for a spartan. 

 

I'd not actually considered a boarding shield + power weapon unit. I was really thinking about a twin LC command squad and jumping around which would be fun, but the lack on invuln is offputting. I'd say you either need the survivability or mobility to pick and choose fights. 

I suppose it depends on your army and what you want to do with them. For example RG with Jumpy Vets with Raven Talons are stronger than Dark Furies and have better overall melee. They can also benefit from shroud the turn they come in from deep strike just like furies. Also, they are just a bit more expensive depending on how you load them up. 2-3 powerfists and some regular chainsword dudes and for what you get, you just pay a bit more for a full 9 man squad that has line.