Goodbye Rubicon, it's been nice

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Just a public service announcement for the majority who likely missed it - according to Valrak ('s sources), the whole bit about the Rubicon Primaris having any substantial failure rate is going to be a thing of the past very soon.

Makes sense. It was obviously only ever introduced to explain why every Squat Marine didn't simply get the jab and profit. The longer they keep it in place while not giving a single example of a named character who actually dies during the process, the more it becomes a joke.

The fiction has already begun to hint in this direction, with Cawl's right-hand man Qvo-Eightysomething mentioning in Darkness in the Blood that the success rate had increased significantly since it was first introduced (we had been told that the success rate was only around 38% when Calgar got juiced).

So... Primaris for everyone! Act now and maybe your chapter can still get a decent payoff for those Rhinos and Land Raiders by selling them to a Sisters or Custodes army near you!

[lansalt]

If old marines can easily become primaris, I wish we finally get new upscaled tactical/devastator/assault squads and old transports being avaliable to primaris

[Orange Knight]

Isn't this simply a case of improving practices and methods which isn't a bug stretch, lore wise?

Calgar was the 1st to cross, and for him the risk was great as the procedure was new and untested. Calgar himself is a fine example of an Astartes, probably one of the toughest, so he survived. 

I didn't think it was even in question that the lore explained it would be easier going forward, and would eventually be a straightforward process.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

24 minutes ago, lansalt said:

If old marines can easily become primaris, I wish we finally get new upscaled tactical/devastator/assault squads and old transports being avaliable to primaris

I think we'll get our "upscaled Tactical squad" when we get that long-awaited generic upgrade frame that will presumably include options for Special and/or Heavy weapons putting Intercessor Squads in the ballpark of Tacticals when it comes to wargear options. I doubt we'll ever see Primaris Sergeants with the absurd number of options that current Tactical Sergeants get, though.

Assault Intercessors ARE upscaled Assault squads... without the jump capability. Weird option, but Firstborn Assault squads CAN be run that way. And as GW's fear of actually introducing straight-up one-for-one replacements of iconic Firstborn squads dissipates further, we'll likely see a true Assault Squad EQ and most likely as early as next year.

I think Devastators are probably gone for good, though. Money-wise and balance-wise, it's in GW's favor to stick to this formula of either having the entire Fire Support squad field a single weapon or only allowing the Sergeant or one "specialist" (per five-man squad). to deviate from that.

Old transports? Unless they rip out the child seats and replace them with something a man can luxuriate into, they're headed for the scrapyard (or a Sisters army, I'm not sure which is preferable).

Plus, haven't you heard? Tread is dead, man. Grav is groovy!

[Captain Idaho]

Doesn't solve any of the problems GW have written themselves into unfortunately. The whole Primaris introduction was just clumsily done and impacts beyond Marines.

Honestly? Just keep the models, remove the fluff that has them as Nu and Improved on the Emperor's design and say Cawl just spent all the time building up a massive number of Marines and new armour and equipment for them.

I mean, Primaris being superior to Firstborn? What about Chaos Marines? Oh they now have more attacks and same number of attacks. So what, each Primaris Marine isn't superior to Chaos Marines then?

And if they want to keep the moniker Primaris, just have it a designation of Marines that stuck by the Imperium. Loyal Marines are Primaris, whilst Traitors are Traitors. 

Just seems like more work than it ever needed to be.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This brings a tear to my eye as I read it… Primaris for everyone !! 

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

Doesn't solve any of the problems GW have written themselves into unfortunately. The whole Primaris introduction was just clumsily done and impacts beyond Marines.

Honestly? Just keep the models, remove the fluff that has them as Nu and Improved on the Emperor's design and say Cawl just spent all the time building up a massive number of Marines and new armour and equipment for them.

I mean, Primaris being superior to Firstborn? What about Chaos Marines? Oh they now have more attacks and same number of attacks. So what, each Primaris Marine isn't superior to Chaos Marines then?

And if they want to keep the moniker Primaris, just have it a designation of Marines that stuck by the Imperium. Loyal Marines are Primaris, whilst Traitors are Traitors. 

Just seems like more work than it ever needed to be.

 

At this stage there are about two dozen novels that dive into the Primaris, and the issues they have raised within various chapters following their introduction. I don't see a scenario where GW fundamentally changes their nature as they have been cemented effectively by the Black Library into the lore.

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

Doesn't solve any of the problems GW have written themselves into unfortunately. The whole Primaris introduction was just clumsily done and impacts beyond Marines.

Honestly? Just keep the models, remove the fluff that has them as Nu and Improved on the Emperor's design and say Cawl just spent all the time building up a massive number of Marines and new armour and equipment for them.

I mean, Primaris being superior to Firstborn? What about Chaos Marines? Oh they now have more attacks and same number of attacks. So what, each Primaris Marine isn't superior to Chaos Marines then?

And if they want to keep the moniker Primaris, just have it a designation of Marines that stuck by the Imperium. Loyal Marines are Primaris, whilst Traitors are Traitors. 

Just seems like more work than it ever needed to be.

I'd personally rather they didn't pretend it didn't happen. Introducing new things is one thing, but to do so and then pretend it didn't happen is honestly worse IMO.

For what its worth, for a long time chaos marines referred to loyalist marines as "thin bloods" and a lot of the concepts were that the process of implantation had degraded, so actually I could see it as totally reasonable to say primaris are an improvement on the current iteration of firstborn but technically are only about equal to the original undamaged astartes. I believe the extra attacks chaos have is also to represent their theoretical higher experience (though that is debatable), also rules wise, I'm sure loyalists will get many of the same stat boosts when they get their next book.

as far as the point of the thread itself, remains to be seen what that will actually mean, perhaps it /will/ mean we just go back to "marines", with certain squad types being retired and others being merged. Who knows. For the moment, its a tidbit from valrak with no actual information behind it.

[Marshal Reinhard]

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Doesn't solve any of the problems GW have written themselves into unfortunately. The whole Primaris introduction was just clumsily done and impacts beyond Marines.

Honestly? Just keep the models, remove the fluff that has them as Nu and Improved on the Emperor's design and say Cawl just spent all the time building up a massive number of Marines and new armour and equipment for them.

I mean, Primaris being superior to Firstborn? What about Chaos Marines? Oh they now have more attacks and same number of attacks. So what, each Primaris Marine isn't superior to Chaos Marines then?

And if they want to keep the moniker Primaris, just have it a designation of Marines that stuck by the Imperium. Loyal Marines are Primaris, whilst Traitors are Traitors. 

Just seems like more work than it ever needed to be.

Maybe its time to move on? I share the sentiment it'd probably have better if the name primaris was never introduced, if it was just a new production technique for making marines, new gear and all marines were just marines. But it didn't happen. We didn't go that route, and reality isn't gonna back pedal now. 

[Helias_Tancred]

When they introduced the Space Marines 2.0 aka Primaris, myself and those I game with knew they were the future, both in terms of lore and model & products. If what he is saying is true, I'm not surprised?

I thought they were going to use a failed crossover to primaris as a means to remove several characters from the marine product line. I guess I was wrong?

Going back and looking at the creation and designation of the space marine product line and units, I do think they did a better job with first born marines than what I've seen done with the primaris line. Tactical squads, assault squads, stern guard, vanguard veterans, scouts, devastator squads, etc were a better creation that what we've seen in the primaris line. I prefer the original designations and ordering. It's a shame the primaris weren't fit within that system vs creating a new one for them.

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Helias Tancred

[Brother Captain Arkley]

I will say right out I loved the Primaris models.

My issues were mainly the lore... It was so badly handled. It created a divide in the fans too. Something I have experienced for daring to like the.

Primaris are simply Space Marines, the fact I can't have Land Raiders for a party bus for Aggressors or Eradicators makes me sad.

[Captain Idaho]

Hey I didn't say anything about even removing the term Primaris. They can pretty keep all the same events and just adapt the fluff that is written.

I mean, novels from the BL isn't a massive deal considering how fluff changes over time and GW even reprinted an entire novel to change the time frame of it!

I dunno though, there's no fixing the problem without reversing it or just all ahead full and trying and fix the other problems that arise from it.

The removal of risk of Rubicon is at least an honest attempt at that. I mean, it won't be an issue in the fluff any more anyway.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

6 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Hey I didn't say anything about even removing the term Primaris. They can pretty keep all the same events and just adapt the fluff that is written.

I mean, novels from the BL isn't a massive deal considering how fluff changes over time and GW even reprinted an entire novel to change the time frame of it!

I dunno though, there's no fixing the problem without reversing it or just all ahead full and trying and fix the other problems that arise from it.

The removal of risk of Rubicon is at least an honest attempt at that. I mean, it won't be an issue in the fluff any more anyway.

The thing is I think thats one of the issues was the name.

Between it, the fluff and the metaphorical sword of Damocles over the "FirstBorn" its understandable why some fans got upset/angry/disappointed (circle the one you want).

Did I want stuff like Intercessor Squads? Well yeah lol but I would have much preferred them like a Tactical Squad, I miss Heavy Weapons.

 

[Blindhamster]

id like to see intercessors get "special" weapon options that align with the bolter choice you pick. Kind of like heavy intercessors get heavy bolter variants and the eradicators get multi meltas.
Intercessors should probably have had an assault weapon if you take auto bolt rifles, a heavy if you take stalker and presumably a rapid fire if you take regular bolt rifles. Just for a slight increase in flexibility/firepower. Without going the full heavy + special in a variety of options that dont really synergise with the main weapon the unit uses.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Wolf Guard Einar said:

I will say right out I loved the Primaris models.

My issues were mainly the lore... It was so badly handled. It created a divide in the fans too. Something I have experienced for daring to like the.

Primaris are simply Space Marines, the fact I can't have Land Raiders for a party bus for Aggressors or Eradicators makes me sad.

I am one of those people with many thousands of points worth of fully-painted Primaris who also thinks the lore/intro is very bad. It was a disrespectful and shameful way to handle the decades-old franchise that made Games Workshop what it is today. And yes, it did create this weird divide where nerds were dunking on each other over the height of their models.

"Space Marine Space Marines" used to be a joke, now it is canon.

At least the move to End Times the 40k franchise seems to have stalled out. That is a good thing, even if we did end up with a messily done half-story.

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

Hey I didn't say anything about even removing the term Primaris. They can pretty keep all the same events and just adapt the fluff that is written.

I mean, novels from the BL isn't a massive deal considering how fluff changes over time and GW even reprinted an entire novel to change the time frame of it!

I dunno though, there's no fixing the problem without reversing it or just all ahead full and trying and fix the other problems that arise from it.

The removal of risk of Rubicon is at least an honest attempt at that. I mean, it won't be an issue in the fluff any more anyway.

One big issue with Primaris lore is just that - it is Primaris lore, when it should just be Space Marines lore. The whole "look how Primaris are treated, BTW they have steel cables for muscles" bit was old after the first paragraph.

Removing the false danger of the Rubicon is a good start.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

35 minutes ago, phandaal said:

I am one of those people with many thousands of points worth of fully-painted Primaris who also thinks the lore/intro is very bad. It was a disrespectful and shameful way to handle the decades-old franchise that made Games Workshop what it is today. And yes, it did create this weird divide where nerds were dunking on each other over the height of their models.

"Space Marine Space Marines" used to be a joke, now it is canon.

At least the move to End Times the 40k franchise seems to have stalled out. That is a good thing, even if we did end up with a messily done half-story.

 

Oh I 100% agree man. Its a lore issue.

I am plodding my way into the Ultramarines Battle Companies.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Wolf Guard Einar

[Gamiel]

Just so we don't have a choir here so would I like to say that I have no problem with the way the Primaris was introduced, they way the explained how they came to be, or their lore. 

 

[Blindhamster]

Their introduction was fine, the details that followed were the problem… there simply weren’t enough. 
 

that said, there’s been a lot of work put into expanding on things, the glimpses into the process and events we have seen through characters such as felix have been good imo. 
 

similarly, stories like the short that came with the astaroth novella where primaris blood angels feel uncertainty over if they’re true sons of sanguinius if they don’t suffer from the flaws was excellent, it made them compelling to me. Then having the events in darkness in the blood demonstrate that they do indeed have the flaws and the events that followed that was equally well done.

 

the ultima founding is where I think a lot of the worse issues sit, there just isn’t enough detail on how those chapters are meant to work. 

[phandaal]

The introduction itself was a problem though.

Imagine if Abaddon did not exist prior to 13th Black Crusade. Instead he shows up in the story, destroys Cadia, the Cicatrix Maledictum opens, and then we are told that really he had been doing all of these other Black Crusades behind the scenes for 10,000 years.

Then everyone's Chaos Marines are replaced with Super Chaos Marines that Abaddon had been hoarding in secret for his final Black Crusade on the secret orders of Horus prior to the end of the Heresy.

Most people would agree that is a bad story. More stories can be layered on top of it, but at the end of the day the foundation is still rotten.

[Blindhamster]

Except the idea of a project that had been going on in secret for 10k years, not unleashed because the individuals with the power to do so weren’t around felt very in keeping with the bureaucracy and utter shambles that the imperium is. And there were already examples of similar projects that created superior space marines told during the HH series before too. 

I remember the reveal and not being surprised, it didn’t feel out of place to me, and there’s nothing you can say that will change that stance because it’s how I felt at the time. The concept of primaris never rubbed me the wrong way, and it has nothing to do with being new to the hobby or anything like that as I got into it way back in 2nd edition and have been a marine player through pretty much all that time.

ultimately the entire setting isn’t too serious, it tries to be, but it’s built on top of jokes, even the newer lore prior to the fall of Cadia was Swiss cheese with a great many flaws and holes, nothing really changed. Space marines just got the opportunity for a bit of an upgrade, and some new wargear. The actual stories told about these new marines joining chapters have been good, the actual stories where marines have crossed the rubicon have also been good. Or at least they have all been as good as black library novels are.

ultimately, the idea that the imperium had legions worth of marines with potentially upgraded gear “on ice” for who knows how long is just so very 40K.

and I’ve said it many times, but I fall into the group of people that really liked the new designs, it blends elements of my favourite mks of armour so I loved it from the start. I still remember people insisting the first lieutenant that got leaked was a conversion lol. 

as for replacing existing armies (because the comment about everyone’s marines being replaced is purely model based as narratively it isn’t) they didn’t, they still haven’t, people just still cling to it and seem dedicated to raging about it. It might happen, and if it does, it won’t be the end of the world, some people might quit the hobby, but plenty of others come to it, and I still can’t see it happening for a long while because I just don’t see GW discontinuing the firstborn kits until they absolutely have to.

P.s. maybe it’s just from being around to see dark eldar get introduced as a totally new concept but apparently always existed, for the tau it was also no different, there weren’t a load of hints leading up to them, they got added and retrospectively details got added to blend them in. It took a while for them to get accepted too. It’s no different from what they’re doing with the not-squats now either. Lore wise “they have always been here” but they weren’t. The squats were dead. Necrons have had total faction narrative and miniature overhauls multiple times too.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Blindhamster

[Orange Knight]

I think the introduction was certainly clumsy, but at this point in time that is a redundant complaint. 

The lore has been vastly expanded, detailed, amended and explored. It is now a source for great character drama, intrigue and some of the most interesting 40k novels in years.

Should we judge the Firstborn by their original introduction in Rogue Trader? Remember when the Astartes were convicts with personal Harems?

Simply put, the original complaints about their introduction no longer apply. We have entered a new chapter of 40k, and the start of a new millennium in the story itself. 

@phandaal

You say that a secret army grown under the Martian soil is bad writing? I say it's perfectly plausible in the Imperium of 40k. The Emperor has literally consumed 4 billion psyskers without the majority of people in the Imperium knowing. 

The Imperium doesn't even know what year it is. 

It's so ineptly run that they dispatch fleets to defend planets that fell hundreds of years ago, or routinely send troops trained in Arctic warfare to desert worlds, etc etc. The existence of a massive army on ice, kept hidden because no one can sign off on it's activation, is the most 40k thing they could have written. The foundation is perfect.

Anyways, moving on from that, people are picking at the Primaris and judging them harshly for many things which the original line and lore can be mocked for as well. I'm enjoying the novels, and the range is a clear upgrade over the old line.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Orange Knight

[Captain Idaho]

I think folk would have been much happier if the Primaris were created from Thunder Warriors technology being added to Astartes. It would have tied to the universe cleaner and quicker without a new "it's always been there" feel.

I think people could wrap their heads around any supposed superiority too.

Anyway, regarding the rubicon changing/leaving... we ain't losing anyone of significance, so even having a risk factor involved is disingenuous. I'm glad GW is doing it.

Tell you what is sad though; imagine being Brother Smith who died on the operating table after Calgar crossed, then a couple years later it's perfected and everyone is crossing effortlessly. Not quite the Heroic tale! 

To be honest I've not touched the fluff since all this has come in. I just can't maintain the interest in it, because it's not 40K, it feels like Warhammer 50K, the spin off game.

Subjective and personal, don't take that as an attack. You can like it and we are both right!

Edited September 1, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[Lord_Ikka]

For me, like many, the introduction of Primaris was both badly written from a fluff standpoint and seem like somewhat a slap in the face/money grab with GW just wanting to re-sell the most popular faction again. I was fairly determined to never have any Primaris, deeming my 6k of Firstborn DA quite enough without the new kiddies. *rabble, rabble, rabble....*

Now, multiple years down the line, I've changed my opinion. Joining the Imperium subscription, I've managed to snag quite a few Primaris units and overall have really enjoyed both building and painting them. The models are much better proportioned and they are just fun to paint, which is not something I ever thought I would say. The lore has...evened out I think- becoming more interesting with the various chapters deciding how to deal with their new brethren. It wasn't handled well in the beginning, for many reasons, but the Primaris are here to stay and are pretty clearly the way forward for the Astartes.

As for the Rubicon deal, it was pretty clear that GW wouldn't kill off a lot (or any, apparently) of its classic SM heroes. While I think this is bad for the setting, it makes sense from a business point of view- don't kill off the money makers, just make new versions of them to sell again. Again, not something that I really like, but I see the point. I would rather have them just kill off a couple of characters (maybe one per chapter that has multiple), then bring in some new faces. 

With 30k doing so well and becoming a core game, we won't see Firstborn going away anytime soon, at least as far as model lines go. Their future in 40k might be a bit more uncertain, as I don't think they will last more than another edition (10th) before they either get relegated to Legends entirely, or split off into a secondary army. Whether that is a good thing or bad thing is up to each individual's opinion. 

[Felix Antipodes]

I seem to have a different take on this.  To my mind the only Primaris are the initial creations of Cawl.  Because of the way they were indoctrinated during their creation they think and act differently from previous Astartes.  This is partly why they had such high casualty rates initially.

Those Astartes from existing Chapters who undergo the Rubicon process, regardless of how dangerous it now is, will still think and acts like traditional space marines afterwards.  Future initiates will be processed in the traditional way.  The biggest problem shown in the lore to date is trying to integrate the Primaris originals into existing Chapters and adapting to their routines and doctrines.  This will not be an issue once these OG Primaris have passed on (in a millennia or so)

The only place the OG Primaris doctrines would/could survive is in the 140-odd Primaris only Chapters created in the Ultimate Founding.  I would love for a BL or GW lore writer to do a novel and/or codex supplement that focused on such a Chapter and actually flesh out their organisation and doctrines as compared to a traditional one.

I hope this rubicon adjustment leads to them dropping the stupid vehicle restrictions, which made no sense then or now.

[Captain Idaho]

Doesn't being a Primaris make them more prone to callous and blood thirster acts? I remember someone in the Ultramarines section mentioning that. After certain Firstborn became Primaris they became more blood thirsty or something?

Or was that a fever dream I had after one too many rums one night?