Goodbye Rubicon, it's been nice

[Marshal Reinhard]

11 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

id like to see intercessors get "special" weapon options that align with the bolter choice you pick. Kind of like heavy intercessors get heavy bolter variants and the eradicators get multi meltas.
Intercessors should probably have had an assault weapon if you take auto bolt rifles, a heavy if you take stalker and presumably a rapid fire if you take regular bolt rifles. Just for a slight increase in flexibility/firepower. Without going the full heavy + special in a variety of options that dont really synergise with the main weapon the unit uses.

Oh I like this, so you can have flamer (or pyreblasters) in an autoboltrifle squad, while a stalker bolter squad could have a las fusil or such. The standard bolt rifle configuration could have the greater range of options as the 'tactical' choice.

[lansalt]

The original Cawl's primaris were indoctrinated closer to a 30k marine and with also martian stuff about the Omnisiah. So while they integrated with no problem with more friendly or "rational" chapters like the UM, they had problems with those with strongheaded subcultures like the DA, BA and SW, sometimes in unexpected ways.

The first primaris SW became literal SW weebs before meeting them, trying to learn and collect all they could about SW only to have a severe culture shock when they met actual  fenrisians like those japanese tourists in Paris having mental meltdowns.

Infamously, primaris Flesh Tearers were so disgusted at first about the chapter's violent attitude that Seth had to personally beat their captain to a pulp to put some sense into them.

The DA being as paranoid as they are, basically ended using their new primaris as brainwashed/mind wiped cannon fodder in suicide missions to keep them from learning anything.

 

[Orange Knight]

11 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

To be honest I've not touched the fluff since all this has come in. I just can't maintain the interest in it, because it's not 40K.

I'm honestly pretty surprised by this.

You've stated that you have refused to engage in the new lore, and I'm assuming you're not investing in the new models?

There is simply no way you could have reached an opinion of value based on your revelation. You have judged a book by it's cover, so to speak. Closing yourself off from anything new isn't in your own personal benefit.

This can be applied to anything, from music to food to experiences. I used to have a mild fear and irrational dislike of water, but I challenged myself and now swimming is one of my favourite passtimes - something I enjoy greatly. I used to hate Olives, just based on their look and smell, but upon a few attempts I have grown to really enjoy eating them.

Your 1st impression of Primaris and the updates to the lore were negative - This is a perfectly valid reaction and mine wasn't much different! If you actually venture into the novels and dive into the lore, you will find some of the best and most intriguing 40k fiction. 

You seem like a guy that has passion for the hobby, and that's something that should be treasured. It would have personally hurt me immensely to disengage myself from anything new relating to my favourite faction because of a negative 1st impression over 5 years ago.

[Captain Idaho]

Thing is, I did venture into the novels! I just didn't like the progression of 40K in the way it did. I just don't feel like it's 40K anymore with much of the Marines stuff, too much progression, too much change that seemed arbitrary and some really odd decisions that contradicted many of the troupes set out over 30 years of background material.

I am waiting for BL to release the Dark Imperium trilogy in paperback so I can actually get hold of them again (that's an economic issue off topic I guess) as I read through the first one but not since its reissue.

I am enjoying the Custodes books mind. I enjoyed Knights of Macragge too, well most of it anyway (end third of the book lost its way a little).

It's more one of theme that is disturbing my zen with 40K lore - I don't care for the advancement of technology, the new and improved designs, the seamless integration into the Imperium such heresies should have fostered yet for some reason didn't...

Example - Calgar had a really deep moment with the return of his Primarch and Primaris. He felt pushed aside, blamed for the stagnation of the Chapter and 2nd best. He like many Ultramarines felt threat from Primaris as replacement. The depth was there and the scene for some really nice plot themes.

But no, all was hand waved aside and now Primaris is a free upgrade, making all conflict and anxiety being set up shallow and pointless.

It's all just... amateur. The writers are doing well with what they have but the business decisions of the company leading the way has just made the whole dynamic of a stagnant and hide bound Imperium, ignorant yet defiant without progression... a thing of yesterday's game.

As such, feeling that it just isn't the same theme any more, I lost interest. As if fan fiction was introduced.

One thing you won't convince me of is olives though. Absolutely gross.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[WrathOfTheLion]

Wasn't always going to be this way by the time they started updating characters? By the time they released like 10 characters back in 8E, the writing was already on the wall.

As for the concept, it's not entirely out of place, as there were similar things going on with the Raptor project and all back in the Horus Heresy, one of my simpler issues there is that they could have made it fit a lot better in if Corax was more involved.

Edited August 20, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Orange Knight]

It's not amateur, though. It's exactly what it has always been. Pulp sci-fi.

How can anyone claim that this lore "isn't 40k"?

40k encompasses everything from silly slapstick to body horror. This is a universe where things happen because some mushroom people believed in them. It's a universe where a society is able to maintain stasis fields that stop the flow of time, but they can't repair a basic gunpowder firearm.  A setting in which people fight in the trenches using shovels and swords, even though they have ships that can bombard a planet from orbit.

You can pick anything apart for any number or reasons, and nothing about the Primaris is ultimately beyond what the setting can operate with.

Primaris are not the pinnacle of human gene-craft. That would be the Primarchs and Custodes. Their technology is superior to what the 40k Astartes used to wield, but is inferior in some ways to what the Imperium operated prior to the Heresy.

Their character, personality and impact are wholly consistent with past Astartes.

 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I am waiting for BL to release the Dark Imperium trilogy in paperback so I can actually get hold of them again (that's an economic issue off topic I guess) as I read through the first one but not since its reissue.

I am enjoying the Custodes books mind. I enjoyed Knights of Macragge too, well most of it anyway (end third of the book lost its way a little).

It's more one of theme that is disturbing my zen with 40K lore - I don't care for the advancement of technology, the new and improved designs, the seamless integration into the Imperium such heresies should have fostered yet for some reason didn't...

Example - Calgar had a really deep moment with the return of his Primarch and Primaris. He felt pushed aside, blamed for the stagnation of the Chapter and 2nd best. He like many Ultramarines felt threat from Primaris as replacement. The depth was there and the scene for some really nice plot themes.

But no, all was hand waved aside and now Primaris is a free upgrade, making all conflict and anxiety being set up shallow and pointless.

It's all just... amateur. The writers are doing well with what they have but the business decisions of the company leading the way has just made the whole dynamic of a stagnant and hide bound Imperium, ignorant yet defiant without progression... a thing of yesterday's game.

 

1. The last book to me was pretty disappointing, and I bought all 3 on Audible (without credits)... Guy seems to lose his way in the 3rd, I am not sure if this was due to the parts he had rewritten for the first two.

2. Is it really an advancement or a rediscovery? The issue with GW is they have written themselves into so many corners with tech. Look at Tactical Dreadnought Armour (I know I could say Terminator Armour but TDA is much cooler :P)..

And take use for example (US=Ultramarines) when the Nids came for a quick lunch we had what 70odd suits of TDA? How many did the Nids Buffet ruin forever? They created so much artificial boundaries that have came back to bite them in the ass. Whether is TDA or Jetbikes. Hell some bints on Necromunda have Jetbikes and the Sons of the Khan don't? I am not asking for Jetbikes for us but White Scars? Dark Angels they should.

3. It was a good thread of a theme, I think Guilliman was more disappointed his sons treated the codex as a sacred book like the Bible for a real world comparison, so I get why Calgar might feel a little to blame but then he the 77th Lord of Macragge The other 76 share some blame.

4. See this is were I had the biggest issues with Primaris. The first lore is really bad, thankfully things seem to be being addressed and fixed, the big issue was the divide it created.

You mention the writing so I will finish with that I got Phil Kellys abomination War of Secrets. That book annoyed me so much that I will never read his books again. But some will say that about Gav's DA books. But I admit I loved Luther.

[phandaal]

9 minutes ago, Wolf Guard Einar said:

You mention the writing so I will finish with that I got Phil Kellys abomination War of Secrets. That book annoyed me so much that I will never read his books again.

Never in a million years would the Dark Angels send Xenos to cover up Fallen activity on an Unforgiven home world. That was a truly awful plot.

[Blindhamster]

21 minutes ago, phandaal said:

Never in a million years would the Dark Angels send Xenos to cover up Fallen activity on an Unforgiven home world. That was a truly awful plot.

Why not? They’re willing to blow up loyal black templars. Suggests there really isn’t anything they won’t do to cover up the unforgiven

[Captain Idaho]

@Orange Knight that's just it really. It's a fictional universe we can pick apart. For me, my line in the sand was the theme that the Imperium was a religious, ignorant and stagnant place that changed little over thousands of years and all that came with that. Did it make sense or have plot holes? Sure! But like most of us, I suspend my disbelief enough to enjoy it because that's just it - I enjoyed the theme.

So coming in with my favourite faction, saying there is no longer stagnant technology but progress, here's light in the darkness and improvement, oh and we can accept it because everyone in universe just accepted it because they were told to... it's not for me.

Added to this, I don't like the whole "new and better so buy them quick" approach of Primaris. It felt like a shallow corporate advert that they are bigger, better, stronger than ever before. And again, no longer stagnant and desperate.

Each to their own. One of my best friends went all in and uses Primaris alongside Firstborn every game without bias or anything. He's also a masterful painter. Cool, we play all the time without issue.

But for me? I just don't like what has happened to my favourite faction.

Incidentally I don't like the changes from 3rd edition Necrons to the current personality Egyptians in Space Necrons. Again, it's a personal thing I don't like - I enjoyed the Lovecraftian, cosmic horror and unknowable enemy Necrons and their masters were.

Changing that theme, with all its justifications and the people of who like it, just doesn't make me enjoy it. I lost my vested interest.

I hope that explanation helps shed light on why some people might not like it. I'm sure I don't speak for others on the issue but this is my reasoning and there are likely people who feel similarly.

[Orange Knight]

I will echo the sentiment about "War of Secrets"

That books was bad, however it did hint towards some very interesting developments with the Tau!

@Captain Idaho

The themes of religion and stagnation are still present in 40k, and in fact are at their most interesting because they are being challenged by the new Regent. I understand what your particular taste is, however.

Keep in mind that the popularity of 30k would have impacted the design choices of GW for their flagship 40k setting. Stagnation and superstition don't exist in the Horus Heresy setting. It's an era of enlightened logic, and yet it is extremely popular with hobbyists.

The Primaris share more in common with the 30k Legions than they do with the 40k chapters in terms of how the units operate. There is nothing about their lore which hasn't been touched on in some way in existing GW works that have proven very popular.

40k is a cautionary tail about corruption and stagnation. I think we have to be self aware enough not to fall into that trap ourselves. 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Orange Knight

[phandaal]

30 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Why not? They’re willing to blow up loyal black templars. Suggests there really isn’t anything they won’t do to cover up the unforgiven

This seems like a disingenuous question.

However, allow me to put forth a more plausible story involving the Dark Angels and the Angels of Absolution:

DA: "Hey, other Unforgiven chapter who also knows all of our secrets and has helped us hunt the Fallen for the last ten thousand years."

AoA: "Yeah?"

DA: "Fallen on your planet, here is where they went. They infected some of your population. You got this?"

AoA: "Yeah."

DA: "Cool, call us when you get them and we will take them back to The Rock."

End Scene

Edited August 20, 2022 by phandaal

[UnkyHamHam]

43 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

@Captain Idaho

The Primaris share more in common with the 30k Legions than they do with the 40k chapters in terms of how the units operate. There is nothing about their lore which hasn't been touched on in some way in existing GW works that have proven very popular. 

I would just like to nip this claim in the bud. 

GW has gone out of their way to pay lip service to the idea that Primaris are Legions 2.0, however they have done an absolutely atrocious job of conveying that idea. They are really bad at the "show, don't tell" way of story telling. 

Primaris operating in any way like Legions of 30k is laughable. They don't have the numbers or logistics to make that work. Maybe in the future GW will fill in the gaps with a heap ton of retcons.  I'm hoping so anyway. 

[Blindhamster]

50 minutes ago, phandaal said:

This seems like a disingenuous question.

However, allow me to put forth a more plausible story involving the Dark Angels and the Angels of Absolution:

DA: "Hey, other Unforgiven chapter who also knows all of our secrets and has helped us hunt the Fallen for the last ten thousand years."

AoA: "Yeah?"

DA: "Fallen on your planet, here is where they went. They infected some of your population. You got this?"

AoA: "Yeah."

DA: "Cool, call us when you get them and we will take them back to The Rock."

End Scene

 The point was, you said they would never use xenos to cover something up. I am simply saying that it seems like an unlikely statement considering their track record. Having not actually read the book I question, I can’t comment on if there weren’t better alternatives outlined within the book itself.

let’s face it, space marines have plenty of canon instances of aligning themselves with xenos to deal with something they deem a bigger problem at the time. Most commonly eldar and apparently at least briefly, necrons in the case of blood angels lol.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

@Orange Knight that's just it really. It's a fictional universe we can pick apart. For me, my line in the sand was the theme that the Imperium was a religious, ignorant and stagnant place that changed little over thousands of years and all that came with that. Did it make sense or have plot holes? Sure! But like most of us, I suspend my disbelief enough to enjoy it because that's just it - I enjoyed the theme.

So coming in with my favourite faction, saying there is no longer stagnant technology but progress, here's light in the darkness and improvement, oh and we can accept it because everyone in universe just accepted it because they were told to... it's not for me.

Added to this, I don't like the whole "new and better so buy them quick" approach of Primaris. It felt like a shallow corporate advert that they are bigger, better, stronger than ever before. And again, no longer stagnant and desperate.

Each to their own. One of my best friends went all in and uses Primaris alongside Firstborn every game without bias or anything. He's also a masterful painter. Cool, we play all the time without issue.

But for me? I just don't like what has happened to my favourite faction.

Incidentally I don't like the changes from 3rd edition Necrons to the current personality Egyptians in Space Necrons. Again, it's a personal thing I don't like - I enjoyed the Lovecraftian, cosmic horror and unknowable enemy Necrons and their masters were.

Changing that theme, with all its justifications and the people of who like it, just doesn't make me enjoy it. I lost my vested interest.

I hope that explanation helps shed light on why some people might not like it. I'm sure I don't speak for others on the issue but this is my reasoning and there are likely people who feel similarly.

The technology hasn’t really advanced at all though. 
It’s largely the same tech from the heresy, but it’s fresh, and just a little bit easier for them to produce the stuff. A bolt rifle is still just a bolter.

the new melta and plasma weapons are still just melta and plasma weapons, and don’t worry, the technology is likely to stagnate for another 20 years once the full primaris line has been released.

[Captain Idaho]

Well I beg to differ. A modern assault rifle isn't the same as a rifle even 30 years ago, or 100 years ago. It is a technological advancement. 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[Marshal Mittens]

2 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Well I beg to differ. A modern assault rifle isn't the same as a rifle even 30 years ago, or 100 years ago. It is a technological advancement. 

I mean, the M16 has been around since the 60s, and the M4 variation has been around almost as long. AK pattern weapons even longer. And those are the main modern rifles used all over the world?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

18 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Well I beg to differ. A modern assault rifle isn't the same as a rifle even 30 years ago, or 100 years ago. It is a technological advancement. 

The AK47 was designed in 1947, and largely based off of the sturmgewher (sp?) which I think was designed in 1943/44…so there are modern combat rifles that have internally stayed the same for the last 80 or so years, in active military use all over the world.

the M14 was adopted for service in 1959 and is still in use in the US military.

 

the M16/AR15 family of rifles was designed in 1956 and is still the primary combat rifle of many militaries all over the world.

 

but I’m not sure what modern military rifles have to do with anything…

 

what new technology is in a bolt rifle that’s not in a bolt gun, or not already in use somewhere else by the imperium before the primaris?

boltgun s4 AP0 D1 24”

boltrifle S4 AP-1 D1 30”

this makes sense as it’s a longer barreled weapon, longer barrels increase velocity (armor piercing capability) as well as range and accuracy.

auto boltrifle S4 AP0 D1 24” 

shoots more,  making using it at longer ranges more difficult, but otherwise the exact same profile 

stalker boltrifle S4 AP-2 D2  36”

longer barreled than boltgun, includes optics, essentially a DMR, so maybe a larger round or or a round with a larger powder charge behind it

 

nothing in any of those profiles indicates technology advanced from boltgun to any form of bolt rifle.

if you’d like I can try to do more or less the same thing with the completely fictional plasma and melta weapon types.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[UnkyHamHam]

23 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The AK47 was designed in 1947, and largely based off of the sturmgewher (sp?) which I think was designed in 1943/44…so there are modern combat rifles that have internally stayed the same for the last 80 or so years, in active military use all over the world.

the M14 was adopted for service in 1959 and is still in use in the US military.

 

the M16/AR15 family of rifles was designed in 1956 and is still the primary combat rifle of many militaries all over the world.

 

but I’m not sure what modern military rifles have to do with anything…

 

what new technology is in a bolt rifle that’s not in a bolt gun, or not already in use somewhere else by the imperium before the primaris?

boltgun s4 AP0 D1 24”

boltrifle S4 AP-1 D1 30”

this makes sense as it’s a longer barreled weapon, longer barrels increase velocity (armor piercing capability) as well as range and accuracy.

auto boltrifle S4 AP0 D1 24” 

shoots more,  making using it at longer ranges more difficult, but otherwise the exact same profile 

stalker boltrifle S4 AP-2 D2  36”

longer barreled than boltgun, includes optics, essentially a DMR, so maybe a larger round or or a round with a larger powder charge behind it

 

nothing in any of those profiles indicates technology advanced from boltgun to any form of bolt rifle.

if you’d like I can try to do more or less the same thing with the completely fictional plasma and melta weapon types.

It's all semantics of course, but I don't think people mean technology is "advancing" per say. But that innovation and creativity are allowed. 

Nobody sought to extend the barrel of a boltgun for 10,000 years. A marine in the Unification Wars and a marine in the 13th Black Crusade are using the exact same weapons. Literally, in some exceptional venerable cases. 

Cawl comes a long and adds some simple barrel extensions, scopes, and munitions optimizations. It's not like it's a stupid idea. It's just that it's surprising that he got away with it in the 40k setting. 

[lansalt]

11 minutes ago, UnkyHamHam said:

Cawl comes a long and adds some simple barrel extensions, scopes, and munitions optimizations. It's not like it's a stupid idea. It's just that it's surprising that he got away with it in the 40k setting. 

And he needed the backing of a returned living Primarch who had been whorshipped for 10000 years while in stasis, and the Custodes personally delivering those to Chapters with a message of "This is the will of the Emperor, take it or else".

There's also the fact than when things really get bad like in M36, suddenly the AdMech rubberstamps all kinds of new stuff like the gear the Sororitas use.

 

[Captain Idaho]

 

26 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

but I’m not sure what modern military rifles have to do with anything…

Well you mentioned weapons in 40K not being technological advancement which why I used modern weapons as an example how technology has advanced.:

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The technology hasn’t really advanced at all though. 
It’s largely the same tech from the heresy, but it’s fresh, and just a little bit easier for them to produce the stuff. A bolt rifle is still just a bolter.

the new melta and plasma weapons are still just melta and plasma weapons, and don’t worry, the technology is likely to stagnate for another 20 years once the full primaris line has been released.

And the weapons, armour, vehicles, ships, genetic Alchemy... it's all advancement.

And your statement that a weapon is still in use has nothing to do with whether there have been modern weapons that are advancements.

That's like using a car that is 40 years old and stating that because you're using it, the thing has 4 wheels and its use is the same as a modern car, those modern cars have no advancement in technology.

I think very few people will agree that Primaris, their weapons, armour, new ships and vehicles are not an advancement in technology.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, UnkyHamHam said:

It's all semantics of course, but I don't think people mean technology is "advancing" per say. But that innovation and creativity are allowed. 

Nobody sought to extend the barrel of a boltgun for 10,000 years. A marine in the Unification Wars and a marine in the 13th Black Crusade are using the exact same weapons. Literally, in some exceptional venerable cases. 

Cawl comes a long and adds some simple barrel extensions, scopes, and munitions optimizations. It's not like it's a stupid idea. It's just that it's surprising that he got away with it in the 40k setting. 

I think it’s more about time to try new things.

when your civilization is constantly at threat every day in every direction, and it’s your duty to produce the weapons or armor needed to fight off those threats the idea of experimenting gets less attractive.

for example as a martial artist if I’m fighting for a regional/national/international title, I’m probably not going to try a technique I’ve never used before in an actual fight.

however during a light sparring session, I’m likely to try something new, and see how it feels and see how it works for me. But in this case the imperium as a whole is in a title fight every day, and cawl was ordered into the basement to do some technical work and find something new that works.

i really don’t see any of the new weapons and armor as significant advances.

in a HH topic I started there’s a debate about if the predator annihilator is from the heresy or was invented by the SW.

If in the latter case, strapping 2 lascannons in place of an autocannon is about the same level of ‘advancement’ as is happening here…

Nothing in any of this new stuff is significantly better than what came before. Hell FB heavy armor is TDA and has a force field or some in it, while primaris heavy armor is just…heavy armor…objectively worse…

was there this backlash when neo-volkite and grav weapons were introduced? They didn’t exist when I left the hobby.

cawl was specifically ordered to do this, while others have been ordered to focus on the fight now.

 

Edit

and as for all of the modern combat rifles, even now antiquated rifles would still classify as autoguns in 40k terms, they’d just be different patterns, so that’s another place where the modern rifle argument kinda falls flat.

I also just want to say, it’s ok to have an opinion, and that not all opinions have to be logical to be valid.

it’s perfectly ok to dislike the new stuff without any logical reason, but we need to acknowledge when our opinions are not based on logic. If someone liked the fact that there were never any major changes to the 40k lore, at least not in terms of progression that’s fine, but a game that doesn’t add new stuff will grow stale and die. That’s why new factions or units got added and for most of them it’s “oh they always existed” like tau and LoV or sanguinary guard…but that method has its own problems making new things be very jarring.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Felix Antipodes]

7 hours ago, lansalt said:

And he needed the backing of a returned living Primarch who had been whorshipped for 10000 years while in stasis, and the Custodes personally delivering those to Chapters with a message of "This is the will of the Emperor, take it or else".

There's also the fact than when things really get bad like in M36, suddenly the AdMech rubberstamps all kinds of new stuff like the gear the Sororitas use.

 

And he is still considered a heretik by the vast majority of the Mechanicus rank and file and parts of the Ecclesiarchy, as has been shown in several places in the lore.

And frankly, I’ve never considered Cawl as an innovator, more a scavenger who has presented old tech as new.  Nothing he has come up with is really new.  

Primaris process?  Bastardisation of the stuff the Emperor left on the cutting room floor.

Anti-grav tanks, etc?  Old tech from the Great Crusade and HH era which he knew off and reused.  Badly.  It’s obvious that it doesn’t work as smoothly as HH era grav.

The only innovation he seems to have come up with is the bolt rifle, and there is no proof this wasn’t a development that was being looked at but not progressed.  It may even been developed by one of the Cawl “skunk works” team and not the chief heretik himself.  More Edison than Tesla in my eyes 

[Captain Idaho]

My opinion is logical. It does a disservice to me to suggest otherwise just because you don't agree.

You've contradicted yourself as well I'm afraid. You stated the new things added to the Imperium don't count as advancement but then gone on to say they are progression which we should embrace.

I hate to be attacking your comment so, I don't mean to escalate it with you I hope you understand, but you're unfairly calling people illogical because you don't like their reason to dislike something, which is patronising. 

I've never had a problem with folk who like Primaris. More power to you! People can like the theme of a stagnant Imperium being changed all they want too. They're certainly not being illogical. 

[Gamiel]

On 8/20/2022 at 12:00 AM, Blindhamster said:

the ultima founding is where I think a lot of the worse issues sit, there just isn’t enough detail on how those chapters are meant to work. 

Based on all the examples we have been given by GW: the same way as any of the chapters of old, a.k.a. any way you (the creator of it) want them to be.

 

They can be fully Codex following, or mostly Codex following with some differences, or having completely their own organisation. They can have taken up their home-/recruitment world's populations traditions, or not. They can be a “daddy jr. chapter” that’s very similar to their “sire-chapter”, or not. They can be notably different from their “sire-chapter”, or not. They can have a history of fighting alongside a Chapter of another gene-line whose ways they have taken up, or not. They can have been given a specefic duty, or just the standard SM ones. They can have been given a secret mission to something they themselves don’t fully understand, or any duty (outside of the standard) they have is fully known to all. They can be at good footing with their sire-chapter, or not. They can work hard to keep good relationships with their gene-line brother-chapters, or have made enemies among them. They can have take an aspect of their “sire-chapter” ways and focused on that, or having fully ignored one of their “sire-chapter” ways. They can have been in contact with “sire-chapter” before their founding, or only after it, or have had no real contact with “daddy”. They can be more like their how their 30k sire-Legion was then how the 1th Founding Chapter bearing that name is in 40k (and here you could have their either as they were before or after finding their Primarch), or not. Things can have happened that have corrupted their gene-seed, making them suffer more from whatever physical/mental/spiritual problems their gene-line has, or have that they seems to lack those problems, or at least suffer less from them. They can be based on any, and as many, real life cultures/groups/concepts as you want, and they could be things GW have already refered to in some way, or things that have not appeared. They can be fully new or have been given the name and/or colours of a lost Chapter, and they may have much or minimal knowledge about the former bearers of their name. They can have been part of many of the important conflicts/events that are mentioned in the official timeline, or they were not there but did other things that needed to be done. 

 

And their history can by now be as long or short as you want. Maybe they are newly created with the chapter core being direct creations of Belisarius Cawl and the rest being the first and secund generation of newly created marines, or they have existed for a long time with only a handful (if any) of their veterans and/or Dreadnoughts remember a time before their chapter’s creation.

 

And since GW is jumping around in their timeline can you without problem have that their history stops at the Nachmund Rift War, or just at the start of the Plague Wars, or beyond that, or have that their history have just started during the Indomitus Crusade and you create it as things move along.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Gamiel