Goodbye Rubicon, it's been nice

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

My opinion is logical. It does a disservice to me to suggest otherwise just because you don't agree.

You've contradicted yourself as well I'm afraid. You stated the new things added to the Imperium don't count as advancement but then gone on to say they are progression which we should embrace.

I hate to be attacking your comment so, I don't mean to escalate it with you I hope you understand, but you're unfairly calling people illogical because you don't like their reason to dislike something, which is patronising. 

I've never had a problem with folk who like Primaris. More power to you! People can like the theme of a stagnant Imperium being changed all they want too. They're certainly not being illogical. 

I mean the ‘logic’ you use doesn’t make sense.

and no I didn’t contradict myself. Progressing the story and advancing the level of technology are two different things.  The level of imperial technology is almost exactly the same after cawl as it was before cawl.

your desire for the game to stay the same and never change or progress the story is a death sentence, and any progression that is made will feel extremely jarring like the introduction of sanguinary guard did.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

3 hours ago, Gamiel said:

And since GW is jumping around in their timeline can you without problem have that their history stops at the Nachmund Rift War, or just at the start of the Plague Wars, or beyond that, or have that their history have just started during the Indomitus Crusade and you create it as things move along.

None of that is really "jumping around" thought. Since the retcon with the timing of the Plague Wars, all of those events now take place within a few years of each other. We haven't visited the 112+-year area of the timeline since the retcon. In fact, I don't think we've had a single product this entire edition (minus maybe some vague Black Library short stories) that took place any further than about fourteen years after the opening of the Rift. That's not a lot of "history."

This is GW's greater error, in my opinion. We can argue about the decision to introduce Primaris at all or whether they should have simply made them "truescaled" Firstborn and ignored the actual model proportions in the fluff. But once they DID make that decision, it probably did make the most sense to set the "current" timeline over a century into the future, therefore allowing all of these Primaris-only Ultima Founding chapters to develop some history and their own character and traditions.

Instead, they immediately retconned that, which jettisoned a lot of the goodwill they had with those players who HAD taken the Primaris plunge and created some intricate backstories for their chapters. And this was on top of the lingering resentment that a lot of Firstborn players still had. They should have either just made the setting of Dark Imperium a mere decade and change after Cadia's fall from the start or stuck with their existing plans into Ninth. Making such an unprecedented leap in the timeline and then immediately deciding that was a mistake and running all the way back to the years right after Gathering Storm suggests they either don't have a plan or the entire thing is decided on by majority vote in a team that keeps changing.

One specific example to illustrate Blindhamster's point about Ultima Founding chapters:

We are now seeing those chapters being formed whole in the very early years of the Crusade. So why do they still have an entire "Veteran" company? At this point, either they're ALL veterans (of just a couple of years or less) or NONE of them are.

Maybe Ultima Founding chapters DON'T have a veteran company (mine doesn't). But we've received no direction from GW that this is the case. To the contrary, every codex since the Primaris were introduced still shows the codex-compliant setup of a veteran First Company and we are given no alternatives.

And if they don't have a Veteran Company, what DOES their First Company consist of? Going by all of the fiction and the various rulebooks, this doesn't even seem to be an issue that GW has considered. When we were operating in a timeline set over a century out, they could somewhat handwave it away (although it still didn't really work for chapters of newly-awakened Primaris founded in the last few years of the Crusade or even after). But by moving everything back to the first decade and change since the Primaris were introduced, they made the problem much worse and still haven't even seemed to notice.

The issue of veterans isn't the only unknown with Ultima Founding chapters, it's simply (to me) the most glaring.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Lord Nord

[WrathOfTheLion]

They did explore it some in the Dark Angels supplement, where I think some members of the Unforgiven were transferred to the Ultima Founding Chapters.

The Space Wolves as well transferred some warriors to the understrength Wolfspear, so that would make sense for them to have veterans.

[Captain Idaho]

43 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I mean the ‘logic’ you use doesn’t make sense.

and no I didn’t contradict myself. Progressing the story and advancing the level of technology are two different things.  The level of imperial technology is almost exactly the same after cawl as it was before cawl.

your desire for the game to stay the same and never change or progress the story is a death sentence, and any progression that is made will feel extremely jarring like the introduction of sanguinary guard did.

You did contradict yourself. And my position is perfectly logical. You've not stated how it isn't logical, just misrepresented what I said.

I've not said anything about the story moving. I mentioned the theme, the setting of the story. You've acknowledged they're the not the same thing and right eh.

You don't have to agree but your position is that those who dislike something you like are illogical isn't a strong position.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

27 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

They did explore it some in the Dark Angels supplement, where I think some members of the Unforgiven were transferred to the Ultima Founding Chapters.

The Space Wolves as well transferred some warriors to the understrength Wolfspear, so that would make sense for them to have veterans.

Even if we were to accept that as common practice, the math doesn't work for the sheer number of Ultima Founding chapters all arriving within a short interval of each other. We have FOUR canon Ultima Founding Salamanders successors, for instance. Where would the Sallies come up with four hundred extra veteran battle brothers to donate? Especially when we know that at least one of them was supposed to have been founded and in existence for some time before the Salamanders even heard of them?

EDIT: And of course there's the problem that Ultima Founding chapters are repeatedly noted as being completely comprised of Primaris Marines. So if their veterans are all donated Firstborn, that would mean they all have to cross the Rubicon... which, as I mentioned in the first post in this topic, started out with a success rate of around 62%.

So even if the Salamanders were willing to send ALL of their battle-brothers to just those four canon successor chapters, the Rubicon would have taken around 620 of them, leaving 380 to not quite make up the veteran companies of those chapters.

And of course the Salamanders chapter itself would be destroyed in the process.

Like I said, veteran companies are an issue with Ultima Founding chapters.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Lord Nord

[WrathOfTheLion]

5 minutes ago, Lord Nord said:

Even if we were to accept that as common practice, the math doesn't work for the sheer number of Ultima Founding chapters all arriving within a short interval of each other. We have FOUR canon Ultima Founding Salamanders successors, for instance. Where would the Sallies come up with four hundred extra veteran battle brothers to donate? Especially when we know that at least one of them was supposed to have been founded and in existence for some time before the Salamanders even heard of them?

Yes, it doesn't apply to the general case, of which I never said it did, only to those specific cases. For Unforgiven and the Wolfspear, they address how they'd've established the Wings and the Fenrisian traditions, although not addressed yet for any further SW chapters.

The Sallies I think only provided a chaplain per chapter if I remember correctly, so definitely didn't supplement those with veterans from their chapter.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

19 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Well you mentioned weapons in 40K not being technological advancement which why I used modern weapons as an example how technology has advanced.:

And the weapons, armour, vehicles, ships, genetic Alchemy... it's all advancement.

And your statement that a weapon is still in use has nothing to do with whether there have been modern weapons that are advancements.

That's like using a car that is 40 years old and stating that because you're using it, the thing has 4 wheels and its use is the same as a modern car, those modern cars have no advancement in technology.

I think very few people will agree that Primaris, their weapons, armour, new ships and vehicles are not an advancement in technology.

The 2 most common combat rifles are both 60+ years old, internally exactly the same, with only aesthetic differences.

most of the advancement in regards to combat rifles over the last 30 years or so has little to do with the rifles themselves, and has to do with the accessories put onto the firearms.

I’m sure without thinking about most people would assume ‘new stuff=new technologies” but based on what I know from the lore I have seen it’s largely new applications of existing technologies, with some minor improvements, but there is in fact no new technology. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

52 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

You did contradict yourself. And my position is perfectly logical. You've not stated how it isn't logical, just misrepresented what I said.

I've not said anything about the story moving. I mentioned the theme, the setting of the story. You've acknowledged they're the not the same thing and right eh.

You don't have to agree but your position is that those who dislike something you like are illogical isn't a strong position.

The theme of the story is the story never moving forward.

the theme is stagnation. That hasn’t really changed.

if you find a puddle it’s stagnant water. Just because you throw a pebble into the puddle or stir it with a stick doesn’t mean it’s not longer stagnant.

this is how I know your position isn’t logical because you keep moving the goal posts.

 

explain to us all what has changed at the macro level of the story?

a glorious hero emerged?

theres a faction that has better gear and equipment?

A few years have actually passed in universe?

what’s this macro change that ruins it for you?

Edited August 21, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Tokugawa]

I don't care about primaris or secondaris in story. I just won't pay money to buy marine model as tall as a guardsman anymore.

[Marshal Mittens]

The lore is not my cup of tea, but personally I love the primaris models. 

[Kallas]

30 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

explain to us all what has changed at the macro level of the story?

a glorious hero emerged?

theres a faction that has better gear and equipment?

A few years have actually passed in universe?

what’s this macro change that ruins it for you?

How about a High Lord of Terra (Morvenn Vahl) taking to the field and uniting the Sororitas Convents under a single banner, instead of being a Ministorum Chamber Militant?

Or how about Guilliman's major restructuring of the Astartes, putting Marines in direct control of Imperial mechanisms (eg, Dante being in charge of literally half of the Imperium) where prior Astartes were barred from being involved in such a politically direct way?

There are actually some major shifts happening in the Imperium - to claim that nothing is changing is actually being ignorant of things that are being written in.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Kallas

[UnkyHamHam]

24 minutes ago, Marshall Mittens said:

The lore is not my cup of tea, but personally I love the primaris models. 

Agreed. Like LordNord said above, there is too many inconsistencies and a lot with Primaris that doesn't make sense.  It's not in a great place. 

But the models...  Top tier. With the exception of a few questionable choices (Aggressors and Suppressors come to mind) they are great. I even own Aggressors and Suppressors. I'm just happy they are willing to try knew things. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

24 minutes ago, Kallas said:

How about a High Lord of Terra (Morvenn Vahl) taking to the field and uniting the Sororitas Convents under a single banner, instead of being a Ministorum Chamber Militant?

Or how about Guilliman's major restructuring of the Astartes, putting Marines in direct control of Imperial mechanisms (eg, Dante being in charge of literally half of the Imperium) where prior Astartes were barred from being involved in such a politically direct way?

There are actually some major shifts happening in the Imperium - to claim that nothing is changing is actually being ignorant of things that are being written in.

to me these are micro, the overall setting and theme doesn't change just because marines take more control over how the imperium is run, or some nuns unite and break away from the church.

those a plot points, but the theme is still exactly the same and the setting has had only minor changes to it.

[Kallas]

Oh ok, so big changes to the structural integrity of the Imperium's political systems aren't going to drive narrative changes? Hell, Guilliman returning and announcing himself as Lord Commander of the Imperium is a pretty big shift, especially when he's bringing in what amounts to a Heretek (since, y'know, he's done plenty of personal innovation which goes against the Cult Mechanicus: ie, the actual definition of a Heretek) to alter the Emperor's designs on Astartes and then introduced those changes across the whole Imperium. That's just the status quo, right? Nothing narrative at all in that, that's just business as usual, right? 

Got it. Sounds like you just want to ignore anything that doesn't agree with your stance, to be honest.

[Blindhamster]

I think what the Inquisitor was saying, was that the actual core themes of the setting haven't really changed all that much. The imperium is still in a bad position, arguably half of it is actually in a worse position.

There are still the core threats of heretics, mutants and xenos. The imperiums primary defence is still the Imperial Guard Astra Militarum and there are still inquisitors going around killing as many loyalists as they do the actual threats. The imperium still has space marines (just now of more than one type) that are still vastly outnumbered. The Imperium is still a bureaucratic nightmare where important things get forgotten and nobody agrees on anything. There is still plenty of body horror, plenty of stupidity and plenty of themes of a lack of real hope. The Imperium still aren't the good guys, there are in fact still no good guys (but most factions view themselves as the good guys in setting!), however the Imperium remains the poster boys as the last hope for humanity, just as they always have been. There is more technological innovation now - yes, but actually it's not like technological innovation is a new thing, particularly among the astartes (look at all the flyers, centurions, grav weapons (which aren't the same as the HH graviton weapons), look at things like some of the predator variants or the engine modifications the blood angels make. It's all innovation and deviations. As far as modifying the emperors designs go, yeah 100% its a modification, but made by one of the people (technically) that was involved in the original space marine project - yes thats new lore, but having said that, space marines were actually NEVER just the Emperors designs... hell, even the primarchs were never purely his designs. Regardless of that, it did still require a loyalist primarch returning to actually have said modifications be activated and come into use - which makes sense, in the absence of the emperor, who else was ever going to have the authority save a primarch. As for the adeptus mechanicus, they do indeed view some of the things as heresy, as do some inquisitors and other members of the imperium. Equally, as far as some groups within the imperium are concerned, the space wolves are heretics. It's hardly new to the setting.

TLDR: Imperium is still a dogmatic mess, full of infighting, its still threatened from all corners, as well as from within, its death-knell has simply been drawn out just a little longer with the additions. The addition of a primarch to the loyalists is honestly a bigger narrative impact than the primaris ever could be. ultimately the primaris are just a new tool in the arsenal of the adeptus astartes, nothing more.

There has 100% been narrative changes, but I would dispute that there have really been thematic changes, which again, is I think what Inquisitor Lensoven was getting at.

 

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

I think what the Inquisitor was saying, was that the actual core themes of the setting haven't really changed all that much. The imperium is still in a bad position, arguably half of it is actually in a worse position.

But this isn't one of the big themes of the Imperium that we're actually discussing is it? Yes, it's still beset on all sides, but nobody was saying that that is/isn't changing, we're talking about the internal stuff revolving around Primaris: and the appearance of Primaris, and Guilliman, have caused a big shift inside of the Imperium by the changes being wrought by both of these (the Primaris by their presence/being pushed by Guilliman; and Guilliman's edicts reshaping the political landscape within the Imperium including major shifts involving Astartes).

It is a stagnant, dogmatic mess. Except that now we have technological advancement (still slow, sure, but that dogmatic element is being eroded, if not outright removed, by the pushing of Cawl's bull [and I'm not talking specifically about Primaris: pretty much everything Cawl does is Mary Sue-esque]).

Quote

As far as modifying the emperors designs go, yeah 100% its a modification, but made by one of the people (technically) that was involved in the original space marine project - yes thats new lore, but having said that, space marines were actually NEVER just the Emperors designs... hell, even the primarchs were never purely his designs

Sure yes, though it would be great if  Cawl wasn't involved in  everything. Cawl is incredibly lazy writing and they use him as an answer for almost everything. Need a new tank? Cawl. New gun? Cawl. Marine changes? Cawl. Waking up Guilliman? Cawl. Going into the Warp and punching all of the Chaos Gods, then rescuing Draigo? Cawl will probably do that in a couple of years too 

But more to the point, sure, even if we accept that Cawl was there 10,000 years ago and was part of the Astartes creation, that's not really relevant to the dogma of the Imperium: The Emperor is God; the Astartes are the God-Emperor's creations; and now some relative unknown (especially considering the Ministorum/faith side of things) shows up and says he's been working on fixing the Emperor's finest creations? And it's just pushed out as all fine and dandy? Sure...ok  It's lazy writing and trite from overuse of Cawl who is persistently being played up to be more and more of a huge influence over every little thing in the setting.

Getting distracted, anyway. So to pull it back to Primaris: Cawl introduces Nu-Super-Marines, everyone (97% of Chapters, and apparently the entire Imperial Faith) is all on board with it (no interesting schisms, just everyone on board the Cawl train); then Firstborn can now be made Primaris, but oh it's dangerous; and then it's now perfectly safe. Great, that's super in keeping with Imperial technology being barely understood and basically mystical, right? That innovation and improvement on technology is not in keeping with the setting that established the Imperium as it is. It is a shift away from what people have enjoyed for the past 20-odd years for...what reason? New models, basically.

Simply, there are shifts in the themes of the setting, at least as it regards the Imperium/Astartes/Primaris. And Inquisitor_Lensoven is saying that there aren't ("to me these are micro, the overall setting and theme doesn't change just because marines take more control over how the imperium is run, or some nuns unite and break away from the church.")

Edited August 21, 2022 by Kallas

[Blindhamster]

nitpick: Cawl wasn't there, one of the brains he has was.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

I think what the Inquisitor was saying, was that the actual core themes of the setting haven't really changed all that much. The imperium is still in a bad position, arguably half of it is actually in a worse position.

There are still the core threats of heretics, mutants and xenos. The imperiums primary defence is still the Imperial Guard Astra Militarum and there are still inquisitors going around killing as many loyalists as they do the actual threats. The imperium still has space marines (just now of more than one type) that are still vastly outnumbered. The Imperium is still a bureaucratic nightmare where important things get forgotten and nobody agrees on anything. There is still plenty of body horror, plenty of stupidity and plenty of themes of a lack of real hope. The Imperium still aren't the good guys, there are in fact still no good guys (but most factions view themselves as the good guys in setting!), however the Imperium remains the poster boys as the last hope for humanity, just as they always have been. There is more technological innovation now - yes, but actually it's not like technological innovation is a new thing, particularly among the astartes (look at all the flyers, centurions, grav weapons (which aren't the same as the HH graviton weapons), look at things like some of the predator variants or the engine modifications the blood angels make. It's all innovation and deviations. As far as modifying the emperors designs go, yeah 100% its a modification, but made by one of the people (technically) that was involved in the original space marine project - yes thats new lore, but having said that, space marines were actually NEVER just the Emperors designs... hell, even the primarchs were never purely his designs. Regardless of that, it did still require a loyalist primarch returning to actually have said modifications be activated and come into use - which makes sense, in the absence of the emperor, who else was ever going to have the authority save a primarch. As for the adeptus mechanicus, they do indeed view some of the things as heresy, as do some inquisitors and other members of the imperium. Equally, as far as some groups within the imperium are concerned, the space wolves are heretics. It's hardly new to the setting.

TLDR: Imperium is still a dogmatic mess, full of infighting, its still threatened from all corners, as well as from within, its death-knell has simply been drawn out just a little longer with the additions. The addition of a primarch to the loyalists is honestly a bigger narrative impact than the primaris ever could be. ultimately the primaris are just a new tool in the arsenal of the adeptus astartes, nothing more.

There has 100% been narrative changes, but I would dispute that there have really been thematic changes, which again, is I think what Inquisitor Lensoven was getting at.

 

yes you've hit it right on the head.

the setting hasn't changed, the themes haven't changed.

the game has been adding characters and new units (often meaning new weapons, and therefore new technology) to the game since day 1 basically. who ever it was that was complaining about all this 'new' technology and how it was changing the setting and the theme some how missed that there have been new characters before, there have been new weapons, new vehicles, and even new units before none of that is new. 

great the beauracracy of the imperium has shifted a little bit, and yes in the grand scheme of things it is a small shift.  what difference does it make to the lowly ganger on necromunda, or the manufactorum worker on some random hive world, who is in charge of the sisters of battle? or what difference does it make to them if guilliman or the high lords are in charge?

guilliman outlawing the imperial creed, that would be a macro change that would effect every single person in the imperium and how the imperium is run. another civil war (likely because of the aforementioned action) would be a macro change that would effect pretty much every single person in the imperium, as well as those outside of it.

taller space marines, new variants of weapons, armor, and vehicles are all micro changes to the setting...unless your only lore focus is purely on the space marines and you simply don't look beyond them, then i guess it's a massive tectonic shift.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

But this isn't one of the big themes of the Imperium that we're actually discussing is it? Yes, it's still beset on all sides, but nobody was saying that that is/isn't changing, we're talking about the internal stuff revolving around Primaris: and the appearance of Primaris, and Guilliman, have caused a big shift inside of the Imperium by the changes being wrought by both of these (the Primaris by their presence/being pushed by Guilliman; and Guilliman's edicts reshaping the political landscape within the Imperium including major shifts involving Astartes).

It is a stagnant, dogmatic mess. Except that now we have technological advancement (still slow, sure, but that dogmatic element is being eroded, if not outright removed, by the pushing of Cawl's bull [and I'm not talking specifically about Primaris: pretty much everything Cawl does is Mary Sue-esque]).

Sure yes, though it would be great if  Cawl wasn't involved in  everything. Cawl is incredibly lazy writing and they use him as an answer for almost everything. Need a new tank? Cawl. New gun? Cawl. Marine changes? Cawl. Waking up Guilliman? Cawl. Going into the Warp and punching all of the Chaos Gods, then rescuing Draigo? Cawl will probably do that in a couple of years too 

But more to the point, sure, even if we accept that Cawl was there 10,000 years ago and was part of the Astartes creation, that's not really relevant to the dogma of the Imperium: The Emperor is God; the Astartes are the God-Emperor's creations; and now some relative unknown (especially considering the Ministorum/faith side of things) shows up and says he's been working on fixing the Emperor's finest creations? And it's just pushed out as all fine and dandy? Sure...ok  It's lazy writing and trite from overuse of Cawl who is persistently being played up to be more and more of a huge influence over every little thing in the setting.

Getting distracted, anyway. So to pull it back to Primaris: Cawl introduces Nu-Super-Marines, everyone (97% of Chapters, and apparently the entire Imperial Faith) is all on board with it (no interesting schisms, just everyone on board the Cawl train); then Firstborn can now be made Primaris, but oh it's dangerous; and then it's now perfectly safe. Great, that's super in keeping with Imperial technology being barely understood and basically mystical, right? That innovation and improvement on technology is not in keeping with the setting that established the Imperium as it is. It is a shift away from what people have enjoyed for the past 20-odd years for...what reason? New models, basically.

Simply, there are shifts in the themes of the setting, at least as it regards the Imperium/Astartes/Primaris. And Inquisitor_Lensoven is saying that there aren't ("to me these are micro, the overall setting and theme doesn't change just because marines take more control over how the imperium is run, or some nuns unite and break away from the church.")

who ever i was arguing with said this changed the theme or setting of the universe, and that is what makes up the theme or setting of the universe. is humanity represented by the imperium on the brink of destruction? check. is the imperium a massive pain in the arse bureaucracy? check. is the imperium a bigoted intolerant place with strict religious laws? check.

the reveal of the primaris didn't change that. guilliman coming back didn't change that. morven vahl breaking the sisters of battle off from the church didn't change that. 
at the macro level nothing has actually changed. sort of like the US, sure some things in the US have changed since we went from 45 to 46, but at the macro scale, we have all the same strengths as a nation, and all of the same weaknesses and problems. from inside the US yes it seems like a massive change occurred, but in the global scale of things, nothing of note has changed.

i never said their weren't shifts in the setting. i said the themes haven't shifted. morven vahl, has had no effect on the themes represented in the setting, and that's 100% true. you can have massive changes to the setting while maintaining the themes. hell there are completely different settings in the world of fiction with the exact same themes. 

primaris, changed nothing about the theme. they brought the theme of hope to the setting for like 5 seconds, before it was all dashed away again...was that little spark of hope what is ruining everything for people?

why is ok that volkite and grav weapons were randomly introduced with no real explanation? why is it ok that a host of space marine fliers were introduced with no real explanation? why was it ok for all chapters to be given the stormraven when upon introduction it was limited to blood angels and gray knights? correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't believe wulfen were a thing until the early-mid 00's, so how was it ok for that to suddenly be introduced? why was it ok to suddenly introduce a chaplain who magically knows where his brothers are going crazy so he can travel the galaxy executing them, or some mythical legend even the blood angels don't believe is real, is all of a sudden a thing? why was it ok to get rid of the honor guard for a whole unit of dante wannabes? 

i don't understand how people took all these changes in stride, but lost their minds over primaris.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Gamiel]

2 hours ago, Lord Nord said:

Even if we were to accept that as common practice,

We don't need to. At least some of the canon Ultima founding chapters that have been given some lore are described as having been created by experienced Primaris, without any guidence of older chapter, even if some of them have had their sire-chapter come over and said hello, and in the Unforgivens case, given their leadership a short rundown about the whole "why we are called the Unforgiven, and don't tell anybody outside or anybody inside that's not ready" thing.

[Kallas]

I'm just gonna touch on the "why is some stuff in, but not others" thread a bit, because I'm tired and want to go to sleep.

Volkite.

Volkite was introduced predominantly through 30k/HH as a Great Crusade/DAoT weapon system. It was plentiful then and then lost over time, but still useable in 40k via relic platforms (eg, Sicarans, Contemptors, Kratos, etc).

There is a significant difference between the introduction of Volkite and Primaris: Volkite was established as rare in 40k as a relic and heavily limited, fitting into the lore of the Imperium being stagnant and treasuring older technology. Primaris were introduced wholesale, en masse, with various new tech improvements and with no build up or attempt to for into 40k lore.

Primaris would be the equivalent of dropping in Leviathan Dreadnoughts, Kratos, Destroyer squads (they're the Volkite Devastator type squad, right?), all at the same time and saying that not only are they plentifully available, they're also easily replicable for future production, oh and they're just better than previous weapons (ie, Primaris are just better, lore wise, than Firstborn), oh also-also you can now upgrade your previous weapons to be Volkite-Bolters which are just better Bolters: breaking the lore that has been established for a long time y just dumping in a heap of new stuff without any grounding.

This is why Primaris are jarring, this is why they're problematic because unlike other new additions there is no consideration of the existing setting.

Take other, non-HH tech: the Land Raider Crusader. It was new, it was designed by Black Templars, right? Well yes, except what they did was strap some Bolters together. They didn't create a new kind of hover tank and forge some new weapon system, they took existing weapons and just put them side-by-side - and then the AdMech were still like, "Woah hold on there buddy, that's not what we do here!" That 'innovation' was heavily limited to fitting into 40k themes of stagnation and dogma; the introduction of it was not a wide proliferation of technology with easy access, it fit the existing lore.

So yeah. It's different for Primaris because they broke the 40k customs which are what made the setting, or at least the Astartes parts of it.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

I'm just gonna touch on the "why is some stuff in, but not others" thread a bit, because I'm tired and want to go to sleep.

Volkite.

Volkite was introduced predominantly through 30k/HH as a Great Crusade/DAoT weapon system. It was plentiful then and then lost over time, but still useable in 40k via relic platforms (eg, Sicarans, Contemptors, Kratos, etc).

There is a significant difference between the introduction of Volkite and Primaris: Volkite was established as rare in 40k as a relic and heavily limited, fitting into the lore of the Imperium being stagnant and treasuring older technology. Primaris were introduced wholesale, en masse, with various new tech improvements and with no build up or attempt to for into 40k lore.

Primaris would be the equivalent of dropping in Leviathan Dreadnoughts, Kratos, Destroyer squads (they're the Volkite Devastator type squad, right?), all at the same time and saying that not only are they plentifully available, they're also easily replicable for future production, oh and they're just better than previous weapons (ie, Primaris are just better, lore wise, than Firstborn), oh also-also you can now upgrade your previous weapons to be Volkite-Bolters which are just better Bolters: breaking the lore that has been established for a long time y just dumping in a heap of new stuff without any grounding.

This is why Primaris are jarring, this is why they're problematic because unlike other new additions there is no consideration of the existing setting.

Take other, non-HH tech: the Land Raider Crusader. It was new, it was designed by Black Templars, right? Well yes, except what they did was strap some Bolters together. They didn't create a new kind of hover tank and forge some new weapon system, they took existing weapons and just put them side-by-side - and then the AdMech were still like, "Woah hold on there buddy, that's not what we do here!" That 'innovation' was heavily limited to fitting into 40k themes of stagnation and dogma; the introduction of it was not a wide proliferation of technology with easy access, it fit the existing lore.

So yeah. It's different for Primaris because they broke the 40k customs which are what made the setting, or at least the Astartes parts of it.

you didn't really answer the question. it was just kinda there one day. no different than the primaris. they were apparently left over from the tail end of the HH/scouring but in stasis while cawl figured out how to make more from my understanding of their introduction.
the tech has just always been there, waiting for a time where cawl could release it into the imperium, and being stockpiled.

it's not like this tech is actually new in reality. some if not much of it is 9ish thousand years old.

according to this the first emerged from over 10,000 years of stasis meaning yes, these technologies are indeed 10k+ years old as well. so literally nothing has changed, it was always there same as the volkite and grav weapons, and sanguinary guard...it's literally no different, we just didn't grow up knowing about it as we played our game.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Primaris_Space_Marines#The_Awoken

Edited August 21, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Captain Idaho]

What difference does it make to the lowly Necromunda Ganger?

But that's the point isn't it. We're referring to Primaris, the politics of the Imperium and technology that all affects the faction Space Marines. My favourite faction, Ultramarines, are completely changed to what they were.

The argument is; you are illogical in disliking the changes to your favourite faction because those changes don't affect a completely different faction.

I mean, yeah sure. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

28 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

What difference does it make to the lowly Necromunda Ganger?

But that's the point isn't it. We're referring to Primaris, the politics of the Imperium and technology that all affects the faction Space Marines. My favourite faction, Ultramarines, are completely changed to what they were.

The argument is; you are illogical in disliking the changes to your favourite faction because those changes don't affect a completely different faction.

I mean, yeah sure. 

weren't you the one complaining that it was changing the setting and theme of 40k?

ok so there we go moving the goal posts.

first it was 'it changes the whole setting and theme!'
now it's 'it changed my whole favorite chapter!"

are they completely changed? how so exactly. they have a primarch AND a chapter master? wooo such big changes. some space marines are now bigger, and have some new-old weapons? wooo big changes.

has the character of the chapter changed? if so, how? no other chapters as far as i can tell have had any notable change in their character of who they are as a chapter, as a result of this.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Orange Knight]

The politics of the Imperium are unchanged.

Guilliman is currently in charge as the Regent. Other individuals of renown have seized power before him, sometimes with good outcomes and sometimes with bad. Vandire is a notorious example. In the past before that, the title of "Guilliman" was a honorific to the most powerful High Lord.

The Imperium in 40k is all about losing, rediscovering and then losing knowledge again. How is Cawl bringing back Volkites into service any different from Arkan Land rediscovering the Land Speeder, and then creating various patterns with the weapons available to him? Centurions and Storm Talons were recently "re-discovered" also.

The Leman Russ chassis was originally used for agriculture. Someone fitted it with guns, and that IS a clear example of Innovation. The AdMech basically invented an entire line of power armour and weapons for the Sisters of Battle during the Vandire period.

So far I have seen subjective dislikes for the Primaris, but subjective opinion and logic are not the same thing. Logically, things can be observed as working within established frameworks. Subjectively any development can be disliked.