Goodbye Rubicon, it's been nice

[WrathOfTheLion]

I'd say probably not a whole lot has changed in the 'standard' Imperium, but with Dante in direct control and all the other stuff going on, Imperium Nihilus has to be significantly different even perhaps for your standard individuals, who are almost again in like an Old Night scenario.

That said, they have not explored Imperium Nihilus near as much as they should have.

[Orange Knight]

You could say that Imperium Sanctus has slightly more hope than before, whilst Imperium Nuhilus is more grim dark. Overall the status quo is unchanged.

The Imperium remains a xenophobic, crumbling, techo-theocracy.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

26 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The politics of the Imperium are unchanged.

Guilliman is currently in charge as the Regent. Other individuals of renown have seized power before him, sometimes with good outcomes and sometimes with bad. Vandire is a notorious example. In the past before that, the title of "Guilliman" was a honorific to the most powerful High Lord.

The Imperium in 40k is all about losing, rediscovering and then losing knowledge again. How is Cawl bringing back Volkites into service any different from Arkan Land rediscovering the Land Speeder, and then creating various patterns with the weapons available to him? Centurions and Storm Talons were recently "re-discovered" also.

The Leman Russ chassis was originally used for agriculture. Someone fitted it with guns, and that IS a clear example of Innovation. The AdMech basically invented an entire line of power armour and weapons for the Sisters of Battle during the Vandire period.

So far I have seen subjective dislikes for the Primaris, but subjective opinion and logic are not the same thing. Logically, things can be observed as working within established frameworks. Subjectively any development can be disliked.

Where is that bit about the leman Russ being a tractor from?

I never heard that before.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

27 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

I'd say probably not a whole lot has changed in the 'standard' Imperium, but with Dante in direct control and all the other stuff going on, Imperium Nihilus has to be significantly different even perhaps for your standard individuals, who are almost again in like an Old Night scenario.

That said, they have not explored Imperium Nihilus near as much as they should have.

Oh yeah the standard citizen in nihilus is definitely effected, but that effect likely only doubles down on the grim dark and desperate themes that drew so many of us edge lords to this universe in the first place.

[WrathOfTheLion]

9 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Oh yeah the standard citizen in nihilus is definitely effected, but that effect likely only doubles down on the grim dark and desperate themes that drew so many of us edge lords to this universe in the first place.

Unfortunately, they haven't done much with it yet. There could be some real interesting stuff going on there, that I'm hoping any further advancements take advantage of.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

12 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Unfortunately, they haven't done much with it yet. There could be some real interesting stuff going on there, that I'm hoping any further advancements take advantage of.

Honestly I think they’re either really unsure of how to proceed in nihilus, or they’re going forward very slowly toads sure that the first big story in nihilus isn’t as flawed as the early primaris stuff

[Kallas]

7 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

The politics of the Imperium are unchanged.

Guilliman is currently in charge as the Regent. Other individuals of renown have seized power before him, sometimes with good outcomes and sometimes with bad. Vandire is a notorious example. In the past before that, the title of "Guilliman" was a honorific to the most powerful High Lord.

The Imperium in 40k is all about losing, rediscovering and then losing knowledge again. How is Cawl bringing back Volkites into service any different from Arkan Land rediscovering the Land Speeder, and then creating various patterns with the weapons available to him? Centurions and Storm Talons were recently "re-discovered" also.

The Leman Russ chassis was originally used for agriculture. Someone fitted it with guns, and that IS a clear example of Innovation. The AdMech basically invented an entire line of power armour and weapons for the Sisters of Battle during the Vandire period.

So about the Volkite, I don't care about Cawl using Volkite/Neo-Volkite all that much, because Volkite exists and that's actually one of the areas where his knowledge makes sense: he was present in a period where it was plentiful and much more understood, so him having much better capabilities in regards to Volkite actually makes some sense.

My whole point about Volkite was relating it's introduction to that of Primaris - it was a new type of gun and technology that was not introduced en masse to 40k, and even though it is plentiful in another line, it is not plentiful in 40k despite being useable by some units. Volkite was introduced in a manner much more fitting with 40k themes where Primaris were not.

As for other changes, like the Russ chassis (though it's worth noting that the Russ STC was found in the Great Crusade and adapted at a time where innovation was a lot less restricted)., that's the point of the STC stuff: they're highly valuable because of the imperium's limited technological base, and gaining access to an STC which is inherently highly adaptable allows the Imperium's bureaucracy to accept change within its own quagmired rules. That's why I brought up the Land Raider Crusader: that is actual change, like the Russ chassis being adapted into a battle tank, it was slow and marred with suspicion even though it wasn't new tech, it was basic innovation - that's the Imperial bureaucracy at work, that's the Cult Mechanicus exerting influence and control, and it's the Imperial Faith/Dogma that what humanity has is right and to beware change (and also because change might be Chaos trying to trick you).

That's kind of the point: the Imperium is monolithic, and the mass introduction of an entirely new set of Astartes, plus accompanying technology, plus an upheaval in political structure is not something that should happen lightly. Yet it kind of did, just because Cawl, and Guilliman, said so.

8 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

you didn't really answer the question. it was just kinda there one day. no different than the primaris. they were apparently left over from the tail end of the HH/scouring but in stasis while cawl figured out how to make more from my understanding of their introduction.
the tech has just always been there, waiting for a time where cawl could release it into the imperium, and being stockpiled

Sure, Volkite was retconned, effectively, to say it was always there but just rediscovered. But that kind of archaeo-tech find has been a part of Imperial 40k for a long time, it's the way that they introduce new stuff.

Volkite was not a wholesale introduction of what amounts to a new faction. It would be like reintroducing Men of Iron into the Adeptus Mechanicus without acknowledge a massive upheaval, just having the Imperium accept it without much fuss (like how 97% of chapters accepted Primaris without problem, apparently). 

Primaris aren't like Volkite, despite saying, "oh but Cawl was there" - Cawl was there, which is, y'know, one of those problematic things. So he's been around for 10,000 years? This kind of removes a lot of the inertia of the Imperium, which is one of the core themes. Huh, it's almost like the Primaris and Cawl stuff is changing the core themes of the setting! 

Thing is, if it had been done differently it would be a lot better. As mentioned in the Hot Takes thread, there have been other attempts to modify/improve the Astartes, such as Corax's experiments and the Cursed Founding. But instead of growing an existing thread, they just dug a massive hole, plonked in a giant slab of brand new crap and expected people to not have problems. Why is it not related to these existing threads? Take Ynarri as an example: they're a big upheaval for the Eldar, and where'd that come from? Oh yeah, 3rd Edition (or maybe even earlier); 3rd Ed Codex: Craftworld Eldar talks about Ynnead, and it took something like 15 years for that to be explored, but it was built on an existing foundation within the 40k lore, not created out of whole cloth.

Cawl and the Primaris are a jarring addition, because they have not been made with the existing lore in mind, they were just dumped in without enough consideration. They could have been made to fit, but they didn't put in that effort.

The "oh they were there since the HH and just in stasis" stuff - sure, IF they had put any effort in to seed this in earlier, or work from an existing thread but no. That's the problem: they're just said, "oh it was there all along" for a huge change, whereas all of the previous changes were not even vaguely on this scale. Cawl had a Legion on ice for 10,000 years with literally nothing indicating this kind of thread until they just went, bloop, here have some crap we made up.

That's the difference: Volkite, STCs, etc, they are built upon foundations that are within 40k norms; Primaris and Cawl are not, they are just added on top without thought of what they are being piled on top of.

[Orange Knight]

So you also don't recognise that the Sisters of Battle should exist?

Their entire armoury was developed in M36, including new power armour, smaller variants of bolters, unique variants of vehicles, etc

[lansalt]

Primaris were rushed with little explanation in 2017, and with 8th edition set a almost century after the fall of Cadia making them to be everywhere without explanation. But we're in 2022 and they and Cawl have now tons of lore to explain their background.  The "primaris came out of nowhere" argument no longer has merit.

[Blindhamster]

I mean, there clearly was thought put into them, there clearly was years of effort put into them before they got released. Just talk to Jes and you can see and hear that. Does the implementation meet with some arbitrary standard set by some people? No I guess not, does it meet with some some different arbitrary standard set by other people, yes, clearly. 
 

it’s not going anywhere now, a huge amount of effort has gone into expanding and developing the lore around the events, most of that has been good (by my own arbitrary standard), they don’t need to change things to appease any subset of the fan base, any more than they need to do anything else to appease the fan base, clearly enough people bought the stuff that it’s been a success.

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

So you also don't recognise that the Sisters of Battle should exist?

Their entire armoury was developed in M36, including new power armour, smaller variants of bolters, unique variants of vehicles, etc

Human Power Armour exists and has been a part of it for much longer. You seem to misunderstand my point: it's not about no innovation, but that Cawl's implementations are not in keeping.

Yes, changes happen, but they have all previously been woven into the fabric that makes up 40k. Cawl and Primaris have been super glued on top of the fabric.

39 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

they don’t need to change things to appease any subset of the fan base

No, they don't. Doesn't stop people being annoyed about a change, and then other people come along and basically say, "you're not allowed to be annoyed!" Or even better, "Let's get rid of your stuff, because I'm alright Jack!"

I have no expectation that GW will change anything now, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Blindhamster]

There’s a point where stating the same stuff is becomes a dead horse is all, everyone is allowed their opinion, the issue is that the same dead horse negativity isn’t productive and instead just acts as an active thing to reduce the enjoyment of the hobby for those that do like it, because almost every thread has the same stuff said again, and again, and again… for half a decade now. Generally by a relatively small subset of people. I wish there was something GW could do to appease people, but the fact is there isn’t now, ideally people that don’t like primaris should just ignore them - same as any other aspect of the hobby you don’t like, it’s not ideal, but there isn’t much more that can be suggested. But short of blocking a number of prominent members of these forums, it’s difficult to enjoy the forums with the above issue.
 

I’m not saying it was done perfectly, but it’s definitely had a lot of effort into smoothing things out and cleaning things up. I still disagree that there has been any fundamental shift in any of the themes of the setting, and whilst there has been narrative shifts, I do think there have been plenty that were just as large in the past. The only real difference is they’ve usually not revolved around space marines. 
 

 

[lansalt]

I think what some of us are saying is "why are you still annoyed after five years when GW has actually made an effort to adress those issues and make Cawl and his primaris an integral part of the setting?". I could understand people's not liking Cawl's story in the HH books and The Great Work, or the Primaris tales that deal with them vs. firstborn vs. CSM. But talking about them like those many stories do not exist doesn't make sense to me.

[Blindhamster]

22 minutes ago, Kallas said:

it's not about no innovation, but that Cawl's implementations are not in keeping.

As mentioned earlier, this just feels like goal post changing, how are how changes not in keeping? Centurions, the new flyers, grav weapons (which ARENT the same as the HH weapons), the hunter, the stalker, even the thunder fire for marines were all sudden introductions with no build up. Most didn’t get introduced as time honoured things, they were new. 
 

when the tau got added, they were dropped in without buildup, they were no more woven into the setting than cawl. Dark eldar weren’t a thing till third Ed, prior to third you had corsairs but not dark eldar, then suddenly they were a thing, again they had retroactive lore added to explain them. The necrons had a huge overhaul, twice, for their lore and how they fit into things, and then it’s explained as always being that way. Custodes went from being guardians at the gates to a full fledged super super super army - with no buildup, it was apparently just always that way. The new squats are getting added, with a new name, new society and new lore, the only reason people are okay with that is because their rose tinted nostalgia glasses remember the old squats, but ultimately they’re still just getting dumped in with existing other lore changed to make them fit, no real hints they were already a thing previously considering they’re noted as NOT being like the squats of necromunda.
 

as mentioned by others, from a pure lore perspective, there have been numerous points where new patterns of weapons and armour have been introduced for the imperium, mkx is still just power armour, it has no mechanical differences. And it’s not the only post heresy armour created (mk8 is also post heresy). Bolt rifles are not some huge technological breakthrough, it’s a modified bolt gun intended for longer range, yes it’s an innovation, but a minor one, and again there’s been numerous bolt gun models created in lore (deathwatch use a different pattern too, for example). The same is generally true of most primaris weapons - they’re not new, they’re somewhat stabilised patterns of existing weapons, which makes sense when at least one of the designers was around when such things were better understood as you yourself said. The grav tanks use a crappy sub par version of grav tech compared to HH, presumably easier to make but clearly not as good in lore (brute force rather than the elegance of times gone).

 

anyway, I’m out, this is kind of getting to be a pointless loop conversation now, sorry

[Orange Knight]

@Kallas

So you want the tabletop to exist in service to the lore, instead of the lore servicing the tabletop?

That has never been the case. Not now, and not 30 years ago. The entire Horus Heresy was invented to give a backstory to an Apocalypse starter box so they could just duplicate the forces for both sides.

You keep bringing up Cawl. You are aware that Black Library invented a bunch of immortal characters who've been around in the setting for 30k+ years. Writing a character into the history of the setting is nothing new. They've been doing it with units too, for a long time, and frankly I find that more tedious than simply moving the story along. "Hey look at this Storm Talon. It wasn't ever mentioned during the Heresy but trust us, this has been a staple of the chapters since the 1st founding. It was always there, we just never mentioned it!"

Primaris are an excellent range. Some models are a dud, visually- I really don't like Inceptors. And the they are still finding their feet with the rules, but from a visual standpoint they look great on the tabletop, and their scale is finally more accurate when compared to other models. The Bladeguard Veterans, Eradicators and Intercessors are simply fantastic kits - the Bladeguard are the best looking Plastic veterans GW has ever produced.

The Horus Heresy was very successful in both lore and tabletop, and it was preceeded by one of the most exciting chapters in the history of Warhammer - The Great Crusade. 

A galaxy wide Crusade serves as a vehicle for a story that has momentum. There is always a reason for characters to move around from warzone to warzone, and new enemies can easily be written into scenarios.

I understand you hate Cawl, but he has a very good character backstory. He is arguably the last scientist in the Imperium, he has the Emperor's school of thought towards science and innovation. There is no evidence that improving the Astartes would be against any rule in the Imperium - Corax attempted it with the Emperor's blessing, and the High Lords dabbled also, if the Badab War story is anything to go by. Cawl himself is justified in what is one of the best 40k books I have read in years. I was as dubious as anyone, but he is a tragic character with a deep history.

For me the Primaris were not a surprise. The Horus Heresy was so successful that GW were always going to emulate some elements in 40k. Primarchs are coming back, new technologically sophisticated units are being introduced, once again the Marines operate more closely to how the Legions did - mono equipped squads dedicated to a singular role, sharing a core across chapters. Of course as time goes on, more unique Chapter Specific units will be introduced in the same way they were in the HH.

They aren't going to go back on themselves now. A minor retconn has already taken place to tidy up the time period, and countless Black Library books have been written about the setting. Also the Primaris are financially very successful.

You can pick apart ANY lore in 40k, but we're now 5 years into the range update. There is a lot to enjoy about the new stories. Chris Wraight and Guy Haley have been fantastic. Who's really being punished when a hobbyist refused to engage with their favourite faction for years? GW are going from strength to strength so a few hobbyists who don't get on board aren't going to hurt them.

If people are still complaining about this at the 7/10 year mark that simply isn't going to be reasonable. I understand that the hobby has gone into a direction you would not have chosen, but we have to make peace with that or simply disengage from the faction. I made peace with it otherwise I simply couldn't enjoy things anymore. 

At least Game Workshop have been true to the iconic characters in the new lore, and have treated them with respect. Things could be much worse - things could be Star Wars lol.

 

Edit: Added Tag

Edited August 22, 2022 by Orange Knight

[Kallas]

42 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

but the fact is there isn’t now, ideally people that don’t like primaris should just ignore them - same as any other aspect of the hobby you don’t like, it’s not ideal, but there isn’t much more that can be suggested. But short of blocking a number of prominent members of these forums, it’s difficult to enjoy the forums with the above issue.

Yeah, if it were possible to ignore them I sure would. But that is the problem, isn't it: Primaris are the future, and that is unavoidable. There are no more Firstborn kits coming out and there likely never will be; everything is Primaris, everything will be Primaris; every piece of media is Primaris focused, every single image is Primaris focused. It's not possible to ignore Primaris beyond shifting faction (I've been building an Eldar army recently since I have no motivation to build or paint my Marines), and even then the reality is that more and more Marine opponents will be fielding more and more Primaris. It is inevitable at this point.

24 minutes ago, lansalt said:

"why are you still annoyed after five years when GW has actually made an effort to adress those issues and make Cawl and his primaris an integral part of the setting?"

They've made them an integral part of the setting, but they did it by just forcing it. Primaris are the mainline now because they are, there! That's pretty much the effort they put into making them a part of the setting.

Because singular technologies that can reasonably be based on uncovered designs are one thing, but the wholesale addition multiple new technologies developed by a Mary Sue character is an entirely other thing. One new vehicle introduced is very different to windmill slamming in a half dozen vehicles all based on one character's designs. 

16 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

As mentioned earlier, this just feels like goal post changing, how are how changes not in keeping? Centurions, the new flyers, grav weapons (which ARENT the same as the HH weapons), the hunter, the stalker, even the thunder fire for marines were all sudden introductions with no build up. Most didn’t get introduced as time honoured things, they were new. 

Hell, I do kind of agree on the Tau, they were added wholesale and without much integration; but compared to Primaris they were not stuffed inside of a much larger faction. Tau were put in a relatively sparse part of the galaxy, where there was room to explore something, and have since made slow progress: was it as jarring as Primaris? Kind of yes, but also no because they're not literally replacing another faction (and now that the Rubicon is apparently perfected, that is exactly what Primaris are going to be doing).

An equivalent would be like if a Tau Empire had sprung up in Segmentum Solar and then just continued to exist instead of being swarmed by the Imperium. The Tau being on the Eastern Fringe which is not only large but also well known as being a frontier area not fully under control of the Imperium makes sense; even more so once Tyranids are factored in, making the region harder to traverse and control.

21 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

as mentioned by others, from a pure lore perspective, there have been numerous points where new patterns of weapons and armour have been introduced for the imperium, mkx is still just power armour, it has no mechanical differences. And it’s not the only post heresy armour created (mk8 is also post heresy). Bolt rifles are not some huge technological breakthrough, it’s a modified bolt gun intended for longer range, yes it’s an innovation, but a minor one, and again there’s been numerous bolt gun models created in lore (deathwatch use a different pattern too, for example). The same is generally true of most primaris weapons - they’re not new, they’re somewhat stabilised patterns of existing weapons, which makes sense when at least one of the designers was around when such things were better understood as you yourself said. The grav tanks use a crappy sub par version of grav tech compared to HH, presumably easier to make but clearly not as good in lore (brute force rather than the elegance of times gone).

And again, I've made this point before, but people love to just ignore it!

Yes, a lot of this stuff makes sense when it's not applied on a grand scale - like, say, building an entire Legion of brand new and improved Marines and equipping them with superior weapons, while not disseminating that weaponry prior; why not come out with the improved Plasma at any point? Why did Cawl never improve upon Heavy Stubbers before now, why did he wait 10,000 years for that?

The manner of Cawl's Primaris and tech just doesn't make sense, from an in- or out-of-universe point of view. There are parts of his stuff that is within the bounds of what's normal (ie, improved Heavy Stubbers, which are pretty low tech), and then there is stuff that is basically heretical stuff, such as the entire principle of his messing with Astartes. Some of the stuff introduced with Primaris is reasonable, but the sweeping changes to many things at once and them just being accepted with open arms by the Imperium is not.

The point is that the Imperium is a monolithic organisation. It's honestly not unreasonable for Cawl to have been able to hide stuff; what's unreasonable is that the Primaris just get brought out and everyone's all thumb's up, including the Custodes; the AdMech just go along with all of the changes to existing tech despite the millenia long doctrine of suspicion; 97% of Chapters blindly accepting Primaris without issue smacks of just wanting to push Primaris through without having to consider the ramifications of their introduction.

[Blindhamster]

But if the only living son of the emperor says it’s what goes, it’s what goes. That’s very in keeping with the setting, particularly because he really has absolutely nobody to challenge him (those that did got offed/ousted in a very appropriate manner for the imperium). The custodes going along with it makes sense if they believe guilliman has the agency of the emperor (hint: he does, and they do).

Most chapters accepted primaris because frankly, it would be stupid not to. They’re pragmatic fighting forces, some are various levels of dogmatic too, but most are dogmatic in their belief that guilliman is right. That said, in lore there are plenty that didn’t/don’t trust the primaris, or use them as little more than meat shields, or don’t use them at all. Of course there no specific major official chapter that doesn’t use them - that would be poor business choice from GW. But there’s room in the setting for groups to have decided not to bother, which means from a hobby perspective there’s room to build firstborn only armies if you want. 
 

as for the models etc - marines don’t need updates to the firstborn range, they are blessed with one of the most up to date ranges in the game, I imagine the molds have plenty of life left in them and aren’t going anywhere any time soon. Sure they may not get new 40K firstborn models, but there’s clearly going to be plenty of HH firstborn to use for the army still. Who knows what will happen in another 5 years, maybe firstborn for 40K will get some updates. I still think we’ll see more firstborn armour nods appear in later primaris kits, representing marines that crossed the rubicon. GW are making primaris at the moment because it’s a way to make new things for marines without having to update the same kits again, I’m sure the designers appreciate the chance to do and try new things rather than make the 6th? 7th? Iteration of the tactical squad. 
 

As for cawl not sending his stuff out into the imperium proper before the arrival of the primaris. He was basically a mad scientist with near infinite resources doing stuff on his own schedule, aware that many in the imperium would brand him a heretic, knowing that he’d need the one that gave him the orders in the first place to validate his work, when the opportunity arose to restore guilliman, he did and his work was able to be “released”. Also worth noting that cawl doesn’t want to be fabricator general either, the strange AI he has wants him to be though, so there’s some interesting and potentially dodgy conflicts to come still.

P.s. cawl introduced a couple of new vehicles, which presumably he designed, or at least teams he lead designed, but he isn’t the first singular individual in the setting to do that (Arkham land??), the character has had a lot of development, particularly in books like the great work, which was a good read, I wouldn’t say he’s a Mary Sue based on his portrayal, he has a number of flaws, and even his own intelligence is only partially attributed to himself, he’s a gestalt entity with some interesting conflicts because of it. 

also, damnit, dragged back in lol

Edited August 22, 2022 by Blindhamster

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

There’s a point where stating the same stuff is becomes a dead horse is all, everyone is allowed their opinion, the issue is that the same dead horse negativity isn’t productive and instead just acts as an active thing to reduce the enjoyment of the hobby for those that do like it, because almost every thread has the same stuff said again, and again, and again… for half a decade now.

On the flip side, whenever people talk about what they would like to see happen with Firstborn, invariably someone comes in with "delete them." Happens like clockwork. Then when they are challenged they will usually respond with a strong "teacher said so" vibe that Primaris are the future and everyone best get in line.

People have opinions, they express them without asking, and nobody is going to be convinced by arguments on the Internet. So the situation continues. Such is life.

Edited August 22, 2022 by phandaal

[Captain Idaho]

It's not fair to accuse people they're flogging a dead horse and just being negative. If you don't want them to continue defending their position, it's best to not continue the conversation from your end as it takes 2 to tango. More on a forum 

There is discussion to be had on the matter and so far most of it has been quite cordial and good natured. Long may that continue.

[Blindhamster]

Yes and every time that comes up, I call that out as rubbish behaviour too. (In relation to phandaal post)

Edited August 22, 2022 by Blindhamster

[Captain Idaho]

Right oh, getting things back to the original topic... the Rubicon Primaris is essentially no longer a Rubicon. Maybe they'll rename it?

What could they rename such? Please don't suggest the Calgar procedure 

Do we have any details from novels what it entails? And is it even the same between Chapters?

2 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Yes and every time that comes up, I call that out as rubbish behaviour too.

That you do. 

[Kallas]

I was gonna reply with more, but I'll drop it, until the next stupid thread I guess.

[Blindhamster]

But it /is/ a dead horse, it’s not a discussion, it’s the same circular arguments, with no positive outcome possible for the people complaining… primaris are here, their introduction happened, it can’t be changed, so it’s a futile argument. The very definition of a dead horse. 
 

and they crop up in every primaris related thread from people that don’t like primaris, and have done from (for the most part) the same people for five years now. 
 

by now most people should be aware I think it’s equally poor taste and unhelpful to say “lol let’s legends firstborn” too, if I were a mod I’d honestly be trying to nip both of those things in the bud as they’re consistently a thing that creates negativity in these forums.

 

[Blindhamster]

8 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Right oh, getting things back to the original topic... the Rubicon Primaris is essentially no longer a Rubicon. Maybe they'll rename it?

What could they rename such? Please don't suggest the Calgar procedure 

Do we have any details from novels what it entails? And is it even the same between Chapters?

That you do. 

I think it’s been referred to as the calgarian rights before, or something similar so you may not be far off lol…

 

it’s described in the ADB book as being incredibly painful, even for a marine as it basically involves restarting a bunch of grown and repair processes as well as intentionally breaking every bone in the body or something crazy like that… I can find the quote for the section if you like. It’s specifically noted as repairing some issues the marine had had for years interestingly (probably why Dante thinks it would help him)

[Orange Knight]

Out of curiosity, when will the people who don't accept Primaris begin to move on?

We're at the 5 year mark, and people can get over failed marriages in less time! This is a semi serious comment, of course.

I must state, I'm not asking this to mock. I want people who have invested in this hobby to have a good time and to be excited about things. Wishing Primaris didn't exist every time a new model or novel is released is not going to make anyone happy. It's voices of negativity or indifference inside a community that is interested in the same faction.

GW isn't hurting because a few people have rejected Primaris, but those people who have cut themselves off from the main focus of a chosen faction would be adding to the negativity of their experience.

So yes, it would seem that GW are eventually going to update most existing heroes to Primaris, and a few might be relegated to Legends. This has ultimately been clear for a long time.