Goodbye Rubicon, it's been nice

[Kallas]

1 minute ago, Orange Knight said:

but those people who have cut themselves off

No, we haven't. We've been cut off by GW. There is a difference.

In 5 years or whenever it is, what do I get from my Land Raiders? They get to sit on the shelf, because GW retired my models to make NuRaiders which are like Land Raiders, but better in every way in both rules and lore, and hover, and only take Primaris models, and have 404 guns strapped on to them at all angles because that's cool apparently.

Here's the counter question: why should I move on from the faction I have loved for 20 odd years?

3 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

This has ultimately been clear for a long time.

And yet people oscillate between "get over it" and "no, they're definitely not going to retire them" - which is just as annoying. Oh, and also whenever I point this out, there's always the crowd braying about how Firstborn are totally not being phased out, despite it being absolutely clearly GW's intention, even if it's not a verbally stated goal.

[Orange Knight]

I understand the sentiment, but GW don't advance the setting or model line via democratic mandate.

The decision has been made to advance the setting in the way they have chosen, and their financial growth has vindicated their decisions.

 

[Kallas]

Yes, I do appreciate the reality of it. That doesn't mean one has to like it. As much as GW doesn't operate democratically, an individuals feelings on a subject aren't dictated to them by the majority.

[phandaal]

Five years is nothing. People have been asking for the return of Warhammer Fantasy for about a decade now, and people asked for Squats to return for even longer than that.

[Blindhamster]

Last I checked, land raiders and firstborn are still in the codex, pretty sure land raiders are better than the repulsor too, who knows what the next book will do of course. 
 

so that’s 5 years you’ve had it shelved for no reason I guess. (Well, maybe 2, when repulsors had fly, they were very good). 
 

you don’t need to like it, but do you need to bring things down for the people that do? The reason I made the dead horse statement is precisely because of that. A dead horse is something where “effort is futile, a waste of time without a positive outcome” 

which very much feels like what we see here. Personally I embraced primaris from a model standpoint and tentatively from a lore standpoint at the start, so yeah I have the benefit of getting to enjoy the changes as they come. And I came from the same camp folk like yourself, having many thousands of points of firstborn. So I’m for sure a lucky one. 
 

but I’ve never understood the sheer level of vitriol or resentment some people have about the situation, as I find it to be founded on nothing but fear of what may come (nobody can say 100% it will come, let alone when). The lore expanded, nothing got retconned, it got progressed and added to, no different from any other new kit for an army (just happens that as spoiled space marines, they got a LOT of new kits) again, as someone who did have a vast amount of firstborn, many of which had a bunch of custom sculpted elements, I feel like I am quite capable of saying the above. I’m not new to the hobby, I didn’t have limited marine models to find redundant (and again, even if I did, none are redundant yet), I’ve read a great many novels from black library as well as supplements from every edition since 2nd.

if I preferred firstborn models, I’d probably just make the most of the time with them, I might not be buying more, but that’s mostly because I already had far more than I could use in any game - not my loss, GWs in that instance. I’d probably be a little sad to not get new models, but only because as marine players we have been spoiled every edition compared to any other army.

of course, I was also someone that dabbled with true scale marines a bunch of times, and I bet many people that accepted primaris that were existing players were as well. So maybe that’s a differentiator.

anyway, it’s true, everyone is allowed their opinions, nobody is wrong here, people clearly fundamentally agree and as phandaal says, opinions won’t be changed. It sucks because there was a time I’d come to B&C for my daily dose of positivity back through my mid-late teens (I’m 34 now lol), these days I always end up reading the same arguments. And more fool me for inevitably biting because it feels like I have to defend liking the way things progressed in threads dedicated to the new stuff I liked. 

4 minutes ago, phandaal said:

Five years is nothing. People have been asking for the return of Warhammer Fantasy for about a decade now, and people asked for Squats to return for even longer than that.

True, but the negativity tends to be quite different for the latter. The former is different as that was the absolute death of an entire game that ceased to be supported. So not really remotely the same situation (nor was squats tbf)

[Kallas]

5 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Last I checked, land raiders and firstborn are still in the codex, pretty sure land raiders are better than the repulsor too, who knows what the next book will do of course. 
so that’s 5 years you’ve had it shelved for no reason I guess. (Well, maybe 2, when repulsors had fly, they were very good). 

So you're ignoring the context of that statement, which is responding to someone asking about the future of the line and how Primaris are the future?

Good stuff 

[Blindhamster]

7 minutes ago, Kallas said:

So you're ignoring the context of that statement, which is responding to someone asking about the future of the line and how Primaris are the future?

Good stuff 

Pretty sure you said you’d had them shelved for the past 5 years? Which was what I responded to, what’s that got to do with possible speculative future? 

but you’re right Idaho, it does take two to tango, so I will actually stop now. Sorry!

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Blindhamster

[lansalt]

Primaris may be "the future", or rather the present current Indomitus era of the setting, but just all those new HH plastic kits ensures than the firstborn rules for 40k are going nowhere. I bet in a decade you guys still could use your Land Raider just like we can still use most of the RT era stuff from 30+ years ago. That doesn't mean that those units will be competitive at the top tables, but you could say the same for most of their history, not to mention the ones from other factions. When was the last time Eldar could field a competitive Aspects army with an Avatar? Etc.

[Kallas]

6 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Pretty sure you said you’d had them shelved for the past 5 years? Which was what I responded to, what’s that got to do with possible speculative future? 

So you ignored the context and the content of the post that you replied to?! Well done!

I literally said, "In 5 years or whenever it is, what do I get from my Land Raiders?" Good job with that reading there, thanks for contributing to that discussion!

[Blindhamster]

My apologies :) you’re totally right about everything because i misread a line in your posts. Very sorry.

[phandaal]

34 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

True, but the negativity tends to be quite different for the latter. The former is different as that was the absolute death of an entire game that ceased to be supported. So not really remotely the same situation (nor was squats tbf)

Just pointing out that fans can and do hold on to things for a very long time.

Whether you or I or anyone else thinks it is justified is irrelevant. The only thing anyone cares about is whether they personally feel like their issues have been addressed.

[Captain Idaho]

Well I do thing both sides have presented their positions adequately here, so moving on from an impasse...

I'm quite interested in how Primarisifying a Firstborn could potentially be different between Chapters. We already know the geneseed is activated differently in different Chapters (for want of a better term) so I'd be interested to know if any if these activities messes with Cawl's original process. After all, he wouldn't have likely planned for the secret manner of implantation etc that each Chapter undergoes.

[Blindhamster]

Still feel like there’s a lot of room for the two lines to eventually blend a lot more than they have right now. Seeing more firstborn design elements appear in the firstborn could be cool. I don’t know if stuff like imperial fists missing acid spit ability will appear again, presumably not

[lansalt]

29 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'm quite interested in how Primarisifying a Firstborn could potentially be different between Chapters. We already know the geneseed is activated differently in different Chapters (for want of a better term) so I'd be interested to know if any if these activities messes with Cawl's original process. After all, he wouldn't have likely planned for the secret manner of implantation etc that each Chapter undergoes.

While each chapter has its own rituals, Cawl has the data about all of the gene-lines, even the ones from the lost legions, and how to make working marines out of them. The only notable exceptions are the SW and their extra fenrisian stuff (addressed in The Wolftime), and chapters with unique warp-related processes like the Exorcists or the Grey Knights that received the primaris tech, but not actual new marines from Cawl.

The Rubicon Primaris process was detailed in a recent Mephiston book, and requires dissasembling him to his bones, nerves and muscles, only to rebuild him carefully with the new improvements. Both Cawl's people and Sanguinary priests are present, and the only problems were the moment they have to kill him and revive him, and warp stuff due to his powers.

Pretty much the same happens to DA's Lazarus or Ventris. The only running theme that I've noticed is that they talk about getting a bit of a questionable high from their new found strength.

 

[phandaal]

The process was also detailed in the recent Successors book.

Wolf Priest goes to check on the Wolfspear and brings a long a Space Wolf who recently crossed the Rubicon.

Wolf Priest asks his companion to describe the process, and his companion says "It hurt."

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, phandaal said:

The process was also detailed in the recent Successors book.

Wolf Priest goes to check on the Wolfspear and brings a long a Space Wolf who recently crossed the Rubicon.

Wolf Priest asks his companion to describe the process, and his companion says "It hurt."

Space Wolves being Space Wolves... I will have to relisten to that story.

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, Kallas said:

No, we haven't. We've been cut off by GW. There is a difference.

In 5 years or whenever it is, what do I get from my Land Raiders? They get to sit on the shelf, because GW retired my models to make NuRaiders which are like Land Raiders, but better in every way in both rules and lore, and hover, and only take Primaris models, and have 404 guns strapped on to them at all angles because that's cool apparently.

Here's the counter question: why should I move on from the faction I have loved for 20 odd years?

And yet people oscillate between "get over it" and "no, they're definitely not going to retire them" - which is just as annoying. Oh, and also whenever I point this out, there's always the crowd braying about how Firstborn are totally not being phased out, despite it being absolutely clearly GW's intention, even if it's not a verbally stated goal.

But GW hasn’t retired any of your models…

[Captain Idaho]

I'm sure Cawl has the official data, but that's probably standard information he worked, as a scientist, as best practice scenario. 

I love the idea that Cawl just wouldn't have considered the blood Rites that the Blood Angels practice, for example.

And each Chapter probably needs activation in slightly different ways too. Not just chemically that Cawl might enact.

[Captain Idaho]

10 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

But GW hasn’t retired any of your models…

Well.. I got stuff to add on this:

Terminator Calgar one of my favourite models has been retired from service. 

However, the Throne of Skulls tournament pack from a couple years ago mentioned using old models to represent new ones, to which I asked the following:

To which they replied the following:

So basically they affirmed at their own event I could use Terminator Calgar using the rules for current Calgar.

So to be objective and rational person you all know and love me to be, models have been retired and replaced. However, GW has no expectation we can't still use them in the modern game beyond even Legends.

[phandaal]

41 minutes ago, Wolf Guard Einar said:

Space Wolves being Space Wolves... I will have to relisten to that story.

 

They also kill a bunch of daemons after an all night Mjød bender.

I am partial to the Unforgiven but there is no denying the Wolves have style.

[lansalt]

51 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Terminator Calgar one of my favourite models has been retired from service. [...] So to be objective and rational person you all know and love me to be, models have been retired and replaced. However, GW has no expectation we can't still use them in the modern game beyond even Legends.

I don't get it. The old Calgar models have serviceable rules in Legends. It was because that tournament didn't allow Legends units?

BTW, this reminds me that the classic Tellion model and the Phobos captain are pretty much the same guy...

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by lansalt

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

Well.. I got stuff to add on this:

Terminator Calgar one of my favourite models has been retired from service. 

However, the Throne of Skulls tournament pack from a couple years ago mentioned using old models to represent new ones, to which I asked the following:

To which they replied the following:

So basically they affirmed at their own event I could use Terminator Calgar using the rules for current Calgar.

So to be objective and rational person you all know and love me to be, models have been retired and replaced. However, GW has no expectation we can't still use them in the modern game beyond even Legends.

i'd say this example splits the difference. the rules for the old models have been retired, but as long as you used the new rules, the old models are still usable which to me means the old models are not retired.

46 minutes ago, lansalt said:

I don't get it. The old Calgar models have serviceable rules in Legends. It was because that tournament didn't allow Legends units?

BTW, this reminds me that the classic Tellion model and the Phobos captain are pretty much the same guy...

 

i dont believe legends is tournament legal. i have never played a formal event and don't particularly plan to (if one pops up nearby while my gf is on her business trip i might just for the experience thought) so i may be misremembering something i heard in a youtube video.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

49 minutes ago, lansalt said:

BTW, this reminds me that the classic Tellion model and the Phobos captain are pretty much the same guy...

Yeah, I will always believe that model began life as a Telion update.

[Orange Knight]

Telion and Chronos will probably be forgotten when the rest of the characters cross the Rubicon....

[Captain Idaho]

2 hours ago, lansalt said:

I don't get it. The old Calgar models have serviceable rules in Legends. It was because that tournament didn't allow Legends units?

BTW, this reminds me that the classic Tellion model and the Phobos captain are pretty much the same guy...

 

Legends is out of date. For example, Calgar is 250pts for the Terminator version, has an older version of Relic Blade and actually a slightly superior Master of the Chapter rule for rerolls, oddly enough.

He's definitely not 70pts better than the Gravis armoured Calgar however.

The funny thing about Legends, would someone who is a fan of Primaris be happy if Helbrecht, Mephiston or Calgar (Primaris) were retired because they were killed off, but GW said you can still use them in Legends?

If you're honest with yourself, you'd say of course not. Well that's how people who have and love the Firstborn Calgar etc of those models feel with Legends. It's not a convincing argument that's for sure.

Anyway, I agree with Inquisitor_Lensoven in that there isn't a problem if GW and thus trickling down to everyone else can use Firstborn as their updated Primaris counterpart in the rules.

It actually makes me very easy going on it really. Hell if they made everything Primaris, like Primaris Tactical squads, Primaris Vanguard etc but I could still use my Firstborn army, I'd not have a problem at all. Long as I can still play with MY toys, my hobby is happy