Goodbye Rubicon, it's been nice

[lansalt]

Then the real problem lies with Legends units not being properly updated by GW, despite probably being quite easy once each main codex is finished. It's not like they're hundreds of pages or something.

Since I'm not interested in competitive or tournament games, I would probably house rule any critical problem of a Legend datasheet, like let's say giving old Calgar the same price as the primaris one.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh that's totally a different topic but I agree - if GW produces rules for something they should update it and treat it like a supported product.

But that's just it, Legends isn't a supported product...

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

Legends is out of date. For example, Calgar is 250pts for the Terminator version, has an older version of Relic Blade and actually a slightly superior Master of the Chapter rule for rerolls, oddly enough.

He's definitely not 70pts better than the Gravis armoured Calgar however.

The funny thing about Legends, would someone who is a fan of Primaris be happy if Helbrecht, Mephiston or Calgar (Primaris) were retired because they were killed off, but GW said you can still use them in Legends?

If you're honest with yourself, you'd say of course not. Well that's how people who have and love the Firstborn Calgar etc of those models feel with Legends. It's not a convincing argument that's for sure.

Anyway, I agree with Inquisitor_Lensoven in that there isn't a problem if GW and thus trickling down to everyone else can use Firstborn as their updated Primaris counterpart in the rules.

It actually makes me very easy going on it really. Hell if they made everything Primaris, like Primaris Tactical squads, Primaris Vanguard etc but I could still use my Firstborn army, I'd not have a problem at all. Long as I can still play with MY toys, my hobby is happy 

I think there’s a huge difference between killing a character off and allowing them in game and primarisizing a character and allowing their FB model to be used.

most people in this hobby enjoy the lore nearly, equally or more than the actual game. So if they kill a character off there’s no new lore with that character in it.

a character crossing the rubicon means they’re still in the lore, and from what I’ve seen the personality or character of these characters doesn’t change. So I don’t see why anyone would be upset as long as they can use the model they already have.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

The funny thing about Legends, would someone who is a fan of Primaris be happy if Helbrecht, Mephiston or Calgar (Primaris) were retired because they were killed off, but GW said you can still use them in Legends?

 

I think I am an outlier here... It would not bother me.

I don't play. I do make my stuff game legal.

Taking one example if Calgar did die his replacement might be Sicarius now that would make me angry :P

[phandaal]

21 minutes ago, Wolf Guard Einar said:

Taking one example if Calgar did die his replacement might be Sicarius now that would make me angry :P

Cato Sicarius assumes his rightful place. Cato Sicarius crosses the Rubicon again, just to prove he can, and becomes a Super Primaris Space Marine.

Chaos gods are defeated, Tyranids go on a diet, Orks take up guided meditation, Eldar stop being perverts.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, phandaal said:

Cato Sicarius assumes his rightful place. Cato Sicarius crosses the Rubicon again, just to prove he can, and becomes a Super Primaris Space Marine.

Chaos gods are defeated, Tyranids go on a diet, Orks take up guided meditation, Eldar stop being perverts.

I have put people on my ignore list for less you monster :P

[Captain Idaho]

26 minutes ago, Wolf Guard Einar said:

I think I am an outlier here... It would not bother me.

I don't play. I do make my stuff game legal.

Taking one example if Calgar did die his replacement might be Sicarius now that would make me angry :P

I did like Sicarius in Knights of Macragge. Really matured as a character. Good development. Needs new rules to reflect his superior swordsman abilities though.

I don't often use special characters unless I really like them. Guilliman for a narrative and Calgsr I just loved the Terminator armoured version.

30 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I think there’s a huge difference between killing a character off and allowing them in game and primarisizing a character and allowing their FB model to be used.

most people in this hobby enjoy the lore nearly, equally or more than the actual game. So if they kill a character off there’s no new lore with that character in it.

a character crossing the rubicon means they’re still in the lore, and from what I’ve seen the personality or character of these characters doesn’t change. So I don’t see why anyone would be upset as long as they can use the model they already have.

You're nitpicking. OK, would you have a problem if Calgar gets updated to a new model, Primaris Omega where he gets super powered through the "Belarsarian procedure", resulting in the Gravis armoured model getting sent to Legends?

Or he gets an armour change and the Gravis armoured model gets sent to Legends?

Mephiston earns his Terminator Armour and the Primaris power armoured one gets sent to Legends.

Anon.

[Blindhamster]

4 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I did like Sicarius in Knights of Macragge. Really matured as a character. Good development. Needs new rules to reflect his superior swordsman abilities though.

I don't often use special characters unless I really like them. Guilliman for a narrative and Calgsr I just loved the Terminator armoured version.

You're nitpicking. OK, would you have a problem if Calgar gets updated to a new model, Primaris Omega where he gets super powered through the "Belarsarian procedure", resulting in the Gravis armoured model getting sent to Legends?

Or he gets an armour change and the Gravis armoured model gets sent to Legends?

Mephiston earns his Terminator Armour and the Primaris power armoured one gets sent to Legends.

Anon.

Fwiw, I generally don’t have issues with my characters getting an update. If mephiston went back to his terminator roots, I’d use my current mephiston as a display piece and use the new version. 
 

the only exception I can think of, is a move to dread, because that’s basically narrative death

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I did like Sicarius in Knights of Macragge. Really matured as a character. Good development. Needs new rules to reflect his superior swordsman abilities though.

 

Well you have me here I just could not make it through that novel.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

13 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I did like Sicarius in Knights of Macragge. Really matured as a character. Good development. Needs new rules to reflect his superior swordsman abilities though.

I don't often use special characters unless I really like them. Guilliman for a narrative and Calgsr I just loved the Terminator armoured version.

You're nitpicking. OK, would you have a problem if Calgar gets updated to a new model, Primaris Omega where he gets super powered through the "Belarsarian procedure", resulting in the Gravis armoured model getting sent to Legends?

Or he gets an armour change and the Gravis armoured model gets sent to Legends?

Mephiston earns his Terminator Armour and the Primaris power armoured one gets sent to Legends.

Anon.

I don’t care what happens to Calgar at all really.

 

if mephiston got a muscly gravis armor I’d be all over it lol.

But the difference between primarising a character and killing a character off is not knitpicking. It’s a massive difference.

I liked Tycho, he’s still playable, but I’m disappointed there won’t be any new lore for him without a massive retcon.

that is hugely different from “I don’t like primaris mephiston, and I’m angry there’s a new model out for him!”

[Blindhamster]

Picture this:

primaris tycho, the procedure fixes death 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Blindhamster said:

Picture this:

primaris tycho, the procedure fixes death 

As stupid as this sounds I could forgive them for it...

I think Tycho is one of the best special characters ever and I don't collect Blood Angels.

 

[Captain Idaho]

But I didn't say I was angry with any of the Primaris models. I stated I didn't like Legends and it was where rules for my models went out to die without support.

It's hard to work out what your position is there, I'm presuming you have no problems with any of your models going to Legends and that's cool.

Not me though. I want to play my models. Legends is not the solution to that. But like I said earlier, I think being able to use older models freely as newer versions is a solution that meets people in the middle for a bit of a compromise at least.

I'd prefer to be able to teleport Calgar of course, but using the Terminator version as the Gravis version is at least doable according to the events team at GW, which trickles down to accepted practice of all of us. (My local group wouldn't have a problem with that I reckon anyway)

Edited August 22, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[Blindhamster]

I think for friendly games, there’s also much more room to agree more reasonable points etc. useless for pickup games though. 
 

Using old models as new versions of the character is a reasonable middle ground, as you say. Tbh, as they’re special characters, it’s also much easier for gw to just say use the latest rules for your model.

16 minutes ago, Wolf Guard Einar said:

As stupid as this sounds I could forgive them for it...

I think Tycho is one of the best special characters ever and I don't collect Blood Angels.

 

He is my favourite blood angel and I’m not going to lie, I’d probably just accept him not being dead. Tbf the third war of Armageddon happens about the same time as cadia I thought so they technically could tweak events haha.

 

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

And I’m not going to lie, I’d probably just accept him not being dead. Tbf the third war of Armageddon happens about the same time as cadia I thought so they technically could tweak events haha.

 

 

Well they did it with Eldrad so its not impossible.

But I think its wishful thinking.

Plus And I am going against what I have said... His death story is just so good too.

[Blindhamster]

Just now, Wolf Guard Einar said:

Well they did it with Eldrad so its not impossible.

But I think its wishful thinking.

Plus And I am going against what I have said... His death story is just so good too.

100% 

for a character that came from something of a random joke, he was very cool, and tragically written. I’d love there to be more lore about him, but it would be a shame to lose his iconic death. 

[Guest]

Just now, Blindhamster said:

100% 

for a character that came from something of a random joke, he was very cool, and tragically written. I’d love there to be more lore about him, but it would be a shame to lose his iconic death. 

So as much as we both would love him to be alive. It would cheapen that short story, and even if i had creative control I am not sure I would bring him back and that makes me sad.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

55 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

But I didn't say I was angry with any of the Primaris models. I stated I didn't like Legends and it was where rules for my models went out to die without support.

It's hard to work out what your position is there, I'm presuming you have no problems with any of your models going to Legends and that's cool.

Not me though. I want to play my models. Legends is not the solution to that. But like I said earlier, I think being able to use older models freely as newer versions is a solution that meets people in the middle for a bit of a compromise at least.

I'd prefer to be able to teleport Calgar of course, but using the Terminator version as the Gravis version is at least doable according to the events team at GW, which trickles down to accepted practice of all of us. (My local group wouldn't have a problem with that I reckon anyway)

My position is this.

GW of today is not the GW of yesteryear.

the GW of today are greedy SOBs and we need to accept that, or take a stand and boycott them.

GW is no longer in business to sell games despite their name. They’re in business to sell plastic toys.

this means we buy the new stuff for army when it replaces the old stuff and we move on, or we simply stop engaging with the game in any meaningful way. if we accept those as the only two options we’ll be happier, and eventually one by one, GW will start to realize they’re losing money, and have to figure out why. 
 

if people are crying because they can’t use the rules for their old models, even though they can use the new rules for their old model, that’s beyond me to even see as a valid complaint.

[Kallas]

9 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

if people are crying because they can’t use the rules for their old models, even though they can use the new rules for their old model, that’s beyond me to even see as a valid complaint.

Competitive, balanced play is important to quite a lot of people. Not even talking specifically tournaments, but Matched Play is pretty much the standard - even if people play Narrative games, they'll often use Matched Play's current, updated rules as their baseline, not just make up whatever because people generally dislike units being over/underpowered. As a knock on of this, people generally don't go with homebrew units for retired models, and models being pushed out (eg, Legends) are often disregarded on the level of pick up games because they're not "core" any longer.

So units that are being pushed out of Codexes are being pushed out of mainstream games, and some people don't exactly enjoy models/units being made unviable (either as accepted by their gaming group(s) or in organised play, like a local league, for example) for many gaming spaces. You can disagree if you think X units are being removed from the game in the near future, or not, but the concern about that kind of future is there: it's literally happening with Legends, whether the scale of it justifies the concern is personal.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Kallas said:

Competitive, balanced play is important to quite a lot of people. Not even talking specifically tournaments, but Matched Play is pretty much the standard - even if people play Narrative games, they'll often use Matched Play's current, updated rules as their baseline, not just make up whatever because people generally dislike units being over/underpowered. As a knock on of this, people generally don't go with homebrew units for retired models, and models being pushed out (eg, Legends) are often disregarded on the level of pick up games because they're not "core" any longer.

So units that are being pushed out of Codexes are being pushed out of mainstream games, and some people don't exactly enjoy models/units being made unviable (either as accepted by their gaming group(s) or in organised play, like a local league, for example) for many gaming spaces. You can disagree if you think X units are being removed from the game in the near future, or not, but the concern about that kind of future is there: it's literally happening with Legends, whether the scale of it justifies the concern is personal.

It can be important to us, but it’s not remotely important to GW.

they don’t care about the health of the game. We as a community need to accept that, and move on, or just stop interacting with GW and it’s products in any meaningful way.

[Captain Idaho]

We don't though. That's not how consumer power works. Negative feedback can get a corporate entity to change its tune, as an example the awful head on the limited edition Ventris model, or Sonic the Hedgehog feedback in other industries. 

And many of us HAVE bought less and less, moving to 3D printing, recasters or just ebay. It's off topic but GW had seen a decline in sales and share price.

Should GW listen to its fan base? Of course. And GW could easily make fans of Primaris happy AND fans of Firstborn happy, it doesn't have to be an either or situation. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

28 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

We don't though. That's not how consumer power works. Negative feedback can get a corporate entity to change its tune, as an example the awful head on the limited edition Ventris model, or Sonic the Hedgehog feedback in other industries. 

And many of us HAVE bought less and less, moving to 3D printing, recasters or just ebay. It's off topic but GW had seen a decline in sales and share price.

Should GW listen to its fan base? Of course. And GW could easily make fans of Primaris happy AND fans of Firstborn happy, it doesn't have to be an either or situation. 

And yet no matter what :cuss:ty things GW does to us, the community still dumps out their wallets.

the ventris model, ohh good job GW on fixing the model, since that’s their stated goal selling models.

GW doesn’t care about us, and nothing will change their minds except for disassociating with them and their product.

They have no motivation to change anything if people just keep buying the models any way.

 

[Captain Idaho]

I agree. And that's the point, people aren't buying their models in the numbers they were. I'm not saying it's down to Primaris, of course. But not listening to your customers contributes to any decline. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Captain Idaho
Words for the word god

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

13 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I agree. And that's the point, people aren't buying their models in the numbers they were. I'm saying it's down to Primaris, of course. But not listening to your customers contributes to any decline. 

Where are you getting that people aren’t buying their models?

pretty sure sales were at like an all time high a year or two ago

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

I agree. And that's the point, people aren't buying their models in the numbers they were. I'm saying it's down to Primaris, of course. But not listening to your customers contributes to any decline. 

I don't think this is true, and even if there is a drop in Primaris sales over thr last few months, it will simply be due to their codex being the oldest in the edition.

A new edition or a new codex will lead to big purchases from the hobby community.