Goodbye Rubicon, it's been nice

[Captain Idaho]

The shareholder's report goes into how the covid lockdown boom/bubble burst. It doesn't talk about Primaris at all, nor did I mention that either.

 

[jimbo1701]

I agree with many that while I think the models are great, the lack of grimdark and the lore were my bugbears. That and all the firstborn armies I have in boxes. But things need to move on. 
 

One recent nail in the coffin for the firstborn is the chaos marine codex. Chaos could largely be seen to have been comparable to marines in that their sorcerors largely had the same stats as librarians, etc etc. sure chaos were lagging with the extra wound for over half an edition, but one thing I’ve noticed is the chaos marines have had their characters and elite units put more on par with primaris marines than with firstborn marines in terms of wounds and attacks. 
 

This makes me very suspicious that the relegation of firstborn to legends status is just around the corner ie next edition. They can retire pretty much everything at this point and introduce any gaps in the range (neophytes, jump troops, terminators) either in a late 9th shadowspear style wave or the initial wave release of 10th. 
 

I can’t see it not happening at this stage. I think 10th will be the edition of fleshing out the non generic chapters also. Grey knights just looks tiny now compared to the rest of the marine range so I expect them to be upgraded, along with sanguinary guard etc. some legacy units may persist such as drop pods and wulfen, but anything with a visible firstborn on it (even the mighty land raider) I can’t see surviving. 
 

I also anticipate that we will see some retcons with the primaris range and there are hints at that already in the form of assault intercessors. I suspect ‘intercessors’ will become tactical intercessors and gain a sprue with sergeant and special / heavy upgrades to appease the transition. ‘Veteran intercessors’ may also get the upgrade sprue treatment to make them actually be fielded by someone. I also suspect one of the few (iconic) unit names to survive the transition along with the hq designations and dreadnoughts will be terminators. 
 

it will be a sad day (made all the more sad by seeing some of the amazing firstborn sculpts toward the end of the run / in heresy) but an inevitable one. The disappearance of the blood angels tactical squad was the first sign things were going that way. Fans have plenty of options to either go primaris, go heresy or go eBay so all is not lost. And after the Templars release I do have faith that GW can do primaris justice and that the best is yet to come. 

[phandaal]

If Primaris end up having all the same options as OG Marines, people could at least use their armies for "counts as."

Setting aside the lore aspect for a moment, people would not have had as much of a problem if they had the option to keep using their old models.

Yes, people can use their old models now. However, that is not going to be true in the long term. Unless there are Primaris equivalents for OG units, eventually the originals are going the way of the dodo.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

7 hours ago, phandaal said:

If Primaris end up having all the same options as OG Marines, people could at least use their armies for "counts as."

Setting aside the lore aspect for a moment, people would not have had as much of a problem if they had the option to keep using their old models.

Yes, people can use their old models now. However, that is not going to be true in the long term. Unless there are Primaris equivalents for OG units, eventually the originals are going the way of the dodo.

you can use a lego figure for 'counts as' whats stopping them from using their FB models for counts as?

[phandaal]

8 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

you can use a lego figure for 'counts as' whats stopping them from using their FB models for counts as?

Please do take your Legos to a game and tell your partner they are Primaris Marines, and be sure to film their reaction for the rest of us. 

[Blindhamster]

Think the proxying of models is very much an individuals issue. But most stores will probably be against the Lego example. Don’t think any would be against proxying firstborn as primaris (wasn’t there a thread about this recently when the mk6 stuff came out for HH? General consensus was it was fine so long as they only represented primaris)

[Gamiel]

19 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

The shareholder's report goes into how the covid lockdown boom/bubble burst. It doesn't talk about Primaris at all, nor did I mention that either.

 

But were are we compared to the pre-covid numbers? 

[RWJP]

5 hours ago, Gamiel said:

But were are we compared to the pre-covid numbers? 

Up, significantly.

2018-2019 Operating Profit: £81.1 Million
2019-2020 Operating Profit: £90 Million
2020-2021 Operating Profit: £151.7 Million
2021-2022 Operating Profit: £157 Million

The hits GW have taken to their financials are categorically not because people are buying less minis. GW's core revenue for 2021 to 2022 was £386 Million (excluding revenue from licensing like video games and other partnerships). For 2020-2021 their total revenue (including licensing revenue as GW didn't separate out core and licensing last year) was £353 Million.

The report goes into things in more detail: https://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/2021-22-accounts-Final-NoM.pdf but in essence GW's "slower" growth and "smaller" increase of profit over the last 12 months was due to the ongoing impacts of increased costs, the war in Ukraine and stopping selling to Russia along with extra bills as a result of Brexit etc.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Captain Idaho
Political element removed

[SickSix]

There are no consequences in 41k. Where @Captain Idaho is frustrated with the change and progress they have put into the Imperium, I say they didn't go far enough. It's so half arsed. They had a chance to really shake things up, and they were cowards. They wanted to have the cake and eat it. 

The Galaxy gets split in two and not one major character dies (that I am aware of). They come up with this "really risky" Rubricon farce yet every single named character waltzes right through. 

They build all this tension between First Born and Primaris all to just hand wave it away. What maybe one Chapter resisted and was made an example of? (Or did that not even happen?) Again, build up, no payoff.

So, in one sense the key players haven't freaking changed at all, but they still somehow crap all over 30 years of lore and hobby. I don't know if I am conveying my thought well, but basically they are committing genocide of First Born Marines, for nothing. 

So why not just release MkX armor models and just say they are official truescale models for Marines and eventually the old models will be phased out? Would have saved us all of this horrible patchwork lore introduction that is just, bad when scrutinized. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

27 minutes ago, SickSix said:

There are no consequences in 41k. Where @Captain Idaho is frustrated with the change and progress they have put into the Imperium, I say they didn't go far enough. It's so half arsed. They had a chance to really shake things up, and they were cowards. They wanted to have the cake and eat it. 

The Galaxy gets split in two and not one major character dies (that I am aware of). They come up with this "really risky" Rubricon farce yet every single named character waltzes right through. 

They build all this tension between First Born and Primaris all to just hand wave it away. What maybe one Chapter resisted and was made an example of? (Or did that not even happen?) Again, build up, no payoff.

So, in one sense the key players haven't freaking changed at all, but they still somehow crap all over 30 years of lore and hobby. I don't know if I am conveying my thought well, but basically they are committing genocide of First Born Marines, for nothing. 

So why not just release MkX armor models and just say they are official truescale models for Marines and eventually the old models will be phased out? Would have saved us all of this horrible patchwork lore introduction that is just, bad when scrutinized. 

Sorry but you’d probably have raged if they killed off one of your favorite characters off.

 

[SickSix]

6 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Sorry but you’d probably have raged if they killed off one of your favorite characters off.

 

That's what you got? Wow. No I would not have. I play successors with no named characters. So nice try at a personal affront but you whiffed.

[phandaal]

8 hours ago, SickSix said:

So why not just release MkX armor models and just say they are official truescale models for Marines and eventually the old models will be phased out?

Someone wanted to End Times 40k just like they did for WFB. Maybe because of the Chapterhouse stuff, maybe some other reason.

Assuming the bulk of these plans kicked off around the end of 2014, that is a lot of time for things to change. Companies have started marketing more heavily towards nostalgia over the last couple of years, for example.

So we end up where we are today, with a pause on the steamroller deletion of the faction that made Games Workshop and a halfway-told story. Next couple of years should be interesting!

[WrathOfTheLion]

Yeah, that's my opinion, that they intended to WFB the whole thing and someone nipped that in the bud before it exploded spectacularly, so they had to quickly make up the lore and all behind it and come back and fix it later.

Now that things are more like just an update or a continuation, we end up with the topic of the thread where the Rubicon doesn't really matter, as these characters are just getting new models and they happen to be in the new armor designs basically, so they're not going to just scrub them without consideration.

[Marshal Reinhard]

2 hours ago, SickSix said:

That's what you got? Wow. No I would not have. I play successors with no named characters.

So that means everyone's free game from your POV 

That said, I think there's a fair point made in that it's easier to codemn someone else's favourite characters to death rather than one of your own that you've purchased models for. Not saying you're doing this, mind. 

My point is more along the lines of: does erasing a few named character models really add so much to the tone of the setting (or take away less as it were) that it's worth it to squash the hopes and dreams for those who DO like these characters and want them to remain? Is it really justified to just remove a few characters at random so as to satisfy some grimdark quota. Cutting storylines short with "then they died on the operating table" may be grim dark, but doesn't seem very satisfying narratively.

I will agree with you that introducing the rubicon as a really dangerous method, then showing no real proof of this, feels fairly lacklustre. But so does giving anyone that end. Nevermind that the named characters are all supposed to be the very best and noteworthy space marine heroes, most chapters having only one. Heck even killing one of the ultramarines 9(+?) characters will step on the toes of someone.

[SickSix]

25 minutes ago, Reinhard said:

So that means everyone's free game from your POV 

That said, I think there's a fair point made in that it's easier to codemn someone else's favourite characters to death rather than one of your own that you've purchased models for. Not saying you're doing this, mind. 

 

Its not easy, that's the point. Oh and boo hoo for one model, when our entire armies will soon be relegated to 'legends' status. GW made ZERO hard choices. And now we have the same old setting with some new mascara. Nothing has truly changed. IMHO that's worse than an 'End Times' scenario. Something about luke warm being worse than hot or cold.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Ultimately though, having a character die that way is stupid and sucks though. They're not going down in a blaze of glory like Tycho, no real story to it, nothing. Just offed.

Unceremoniously deleting a character like that is only going to make people mad.

Edited August 25, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Iron Father Ferrum]

9 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Sorry but you’d probably have raged if they killed off one of your favorite characters off.

 

I remember when they killed Eldrad at the end of the EoT campaign in 3rd Edition.  He had rules in the 4th Edition Eldar codex even though he was dead for use in "historical" games.  Same for Tycho in the 5th Edition BA codex.

 

Killing characters in the lore does not eliminate them from use in games, which softens the blow.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

The thing is, they didn't even have to kill named characters with models - the Space Wolves have lost three Wolf Lords and one stand-in Wolf Lord in the last few years. Yes, two of those were right before the Primaris launch but close enough that GW knew the Primaris and the Rubicon were going to be a thing when they made the choice to kill them off.

So GW kills Company Captains frequently enough. They also killed the Novamarines Chapter Master in Plague War and he's not a guy with a model. For that matter, the Imperial Fists Chapter Master was killed off and not only did he also not have a model but they haven't even detailed how he died yet other than a vague mention that it was at the battle on Terra (which doesn't really make sense canonically and will probably be retconned when and if they mention it again).

All it would have taken is a few stray lines here and there, especially in the 8th-Ed supplements, about how this Captain you've never heard of took over this company after this other Captain you might have heard of once gave his life attempting the Rubicon crossing.

No feelings hurt on the part of people who follow a particular chapter in the lore and no one's model gets taken away... ironically unlike SUCCESSFUL Rubicon crossings, where Firstborn-only players lose their models unless they're playing a friendly game or are willing to go the "counts-as" route, which still means they lose Terminator armor in the case of Calgar.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Lord Nord

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

11 minutes ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

I remember when they killed Eldrad at the end of the EoT campaign in 3rd Edition.  He had rules in the 4th Edition Eldar codex even though he was dead for use in "historical" games.  Same for Tycho in the 5th Edition BA codex.

 

Killing characters in the lore does not eliminate them from use in games, which softens the blow.

and yet, it's the lore that makes people actually like the characters, i've never used a special character in a single game ever since '98. i still like them though. i'm sure plenty of other people do to, and just as we know there are people who collect build, and paint, there are people who only engage with the IP through the lore. killing off a character but keeping their rules in the codex doesn't help them any.

[SickSix]

2 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Ultimately though, having a character die that way is stupid and sucks though. They're not going down in a blaze of glory like Tycho, no real story to it, nothing. Just offed.

Unceremoniously deleting a character like that is only going to make people mad.

You may not be speaking to me, but I do want to clarify that when I criticize the fact that no named characters have died, I mean that in the entire Gathering Storm story line and the splitting of the galaxy.

 

I agree killing Dante through the Rubricon would be dumb. But as @Lord Nord said they could have killed some unmodelled captain or something to show that the Rubricon was actually risky. Maybe even have some old war digs refuse due to their chance of death. Like Telion, but they basically gave him a Primaris model without his name anyway.

But they could have let anyone of the dozen+ modelled characters die in glorious battle. Signify how dire the Cicatrix Maledictum really was. 

[Blindhamster]

2 hours ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

I remember when they killed Eldrad at the end of the EoT campaign in 3rd Edition.  He had rules in the 4th Edition Eldar codex even though he was dead for use in "historical" games.  Same for Tycho in the 5th Edition BA codex.

 

Killing characters in the lore does not eliminate them from use in games, which softens the blow.

Tbf, Eldrad got better :D

[spafe]

Bit late to this, but I fall into the 'dislike primaris' camp. The models are ace, like, objectively better than the old ones. The lore though, I dislike, because it feels small now. I group them coming with the coming of the primarch, and cawl. I must admit I dont know the latest lore amazingly well, but the idea of ecverything going to pot, then primarch saving the day, it just makes the galaxy feel small.

The other thing I dislike is the 'vague' reference to legions of old, with entire units matching a loadout. Someone several pages ago stated that 'of course primaris were accepted everywhere, marines are pragmatic fighting forces'...well... in the 40k setting of chapters not legions, it doesnt make sense to have entire units of a single load out, it makes sense to build in versitility, which primaris dont do. Theres just .... things that dont sit right for me with how they are.

BUT, the idea of the rubicon going, all marines just being marines... well if that means that you get 'tactical' primaris... or whatever crud they call them (also get fed up with the daft naming conventions), so you get nicely scaled, awesome looking models, which have the same load out as a tactical squad, and they whip up some jump packs for the 'new' assault squad chaps. I would love this, it would be (to me) what gw should have done at the start, just said 'hey guys, heres our new marine range of truescale epic new scuplts, dont worry, these are all going to be mk10 fancy power armour to start with, so your old models arnt invalidated, but be aware over the next 5 years or so the old range will be phased out', that would have been amazing, and if they get there now, I will be happy.

Otherwise... eh, I'll continue to mostly ignore the new lore, which will mean I'll likely continue to only play a handful of games of 40k with my guard, and not really buy any new models for 40k. It's basically what I've been doing since primaris dropped so hey ho, guess I'm not their target for it anymore.

[Felix Antipodes]

Astartes are pragmatic, especially when the Primaris are delivered by a Custodes squad saying accept them or else.

Once the custodes head off to their next destination I would bet the Chapter Master/Company Captain says to the new boys “right, you Intercessors report to the Tactical Squad X, you Hellblasters report to 9th Company, etc.”  “Oy, you!  Yes the Lieutenant!  Fetch me a cuppa stat!”

[Kallas]

5 hours ago, Felix Antipodes said:

Astartes are pragmatic, especially when the Primaris are delivered by a Custodes squad saying accept them or else.

I mean, making it so that it is incredibly black-or-white is a reduction of the setting. Yes, Astartes are pragmatic, but they're not entirely - they still perform numerous rituals and ceremonies, and they're not all the same: there are Chapters that are more religious than others (eg, Black Templars vs Ultramarines) and some will make decisions based on their own beliefs.

The Custodes Delivery Service was one of the things that always felt very bleh to me; it was part and parcel of the whole, "Oh everyone accepted them," which just didn't feel very good. Sure, the Emperor's dudes showing up and saying, "take these or else" makes it more impactful, but it also just kind of cheapens the whole system of separation between the different branches of the Imperium.

[Doghouse]

One aspect that I would not like if First Born were done away with would be you could no longer play historical battle settings without proxying. It pushes you towards sticking to the current setting and anything post rift which defeats one of the core ideals of 40k gaming and exploring the ten thousand years between the Heresy and now. That era is such an important sandbox to play in to me. Making 40k an advancing story shouldn't come at the cost of limiting your creativity.

I'm more inclined to hope they don't especially now that the Astartes line is being vastly expanded with the addition of Heresy kits.