New rumors - updated 12-Oct

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

26 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

Heavy is -1 to hit that's the problem on inf, it should have been assault really

That’s why he said brutal strength there’s no debuff for moving heavies

[jaxom]

Interesting. Has there been any mention of the regiment-regiment rules? The stream last weekend talked about how each army would have to pick a theme (what the rumors are calling regimental doctrine), but that there are still special rules for being Catachan, Cadian, Krieg, Tallarn, etc.

[Lord_Ikka]

2 hours ago, duz_ said:

Heavy does seem an odd choice 

It's also an odd trade off vs double rapid fire 

 

Worse at half range better at long range. I'm not sure how it comes out in the wash though

Probably better- having IG infantry at half range is not where you want them in terms of survivability. Having them pump out an extra shot at 12+ means you can possibly stop that enemy unit from charging and wiping you the next turn.

Fluff-wise, I assume that they are upping the charge on the lasgun shots (ala the Vitrian Dragoons in Gaunt's Ghosts) and that shooting at such a high charge requires more careful aiming?

[duz_]

Possibly? 

Although the take aim one seems like it might be better? +1BS and -1AP. 

Although useless against armour of contempt. So I guess volume of fire wins out there? 

[Lord_Ikka]

Take Aim seems directed at Scions, moving them to BS 2+ and the hot-shot lasguns to -3 AP, which would be decent in the scheme of things.

[duz_]

17 minutes ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Take Aim seems directed at Scions, moving them to BS 2+ and the hot-shot lasguns to -3 AP, which would be decent in the scheme of things.

That is a juicy combo... 

 

I ran the numbers of FRFSRF vs Take Aim at max range. If AOC wasn't a thing theyre fairly close damage wise. Which still isn't a dead marine, but confirms my suspicion they were fairly close. 

[MrKoolPants]

58 minutes ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Take Aim seems directed at Scions, moving them to BS 2+ and the hot-shot lasguns to -3 AP, which would be decent in the scheme of things.

Oh my word 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, jaxom said:

Interesting. Has there been any mention of the regiment-regiment rules? The stream last weekend talked about how each army would have to pick a theme (what the rumors are calling regimental doctrine), but that there are still special rules for being Catachan, Cadian, Krieg, Tallarn, etc.

Emperor I hope not.

just sounds like a lot of bloat

[sairence]

I think the rumours were that regiment keywords would unlock strategems.

[TCC]

26 minutes ago, sairence said:

I think the rumours were that regiment keywords would unlock strategems.

and units (eg shock troops and Creed for Cadian).

[apologist]

Thanks for the rumours, @Inquisitor_Lensoven. I've got a a home-made Regiment from Lamb's World, but haven't played them very much, because it felt weird having to use a specific Regiment's rules. The return of a custom doctrine system is very welcome.

 

 

Doctines:

None of the rumoured doctrines particularly fit with the 'bog-standard' Guard feel I wanted for my army, so I guess I'll probably opt for things that don't require much 'brainspace' to make things easier to play: Elite Shock Troops and Mech Infantry, as I've got some Chimeras that I've had hanging around, and would like to paint up for the new edition.

 

Orders:

Nice to see that transported officers get to issue orders after disembarking. Cool to see an expansion of orders for tanks and Commissars, though I think I'll have my head spinning trying to remember the options! 

 

Psychic powers: 

I've got various psykers and things that have been a bit underwhelming for the past few years, so it'd be nice to see how these work.

 

Warlord Traits:

Interesting to see the option to allow officers to order themselves – I must confess that I thought they could anyway; whoops. I think I'll probably take that option just to avoid making a mistake in future.

 

Other specifics:

 

• Scions are now elites but may be taken as troops if your whole detachment is scions (+2 other keywords)

Interesting! I've got a couple of squads of Stormtroopers from back in an earlier edition, when certain squads could be issued carapace. They didn't feel quite right in more recent editions, so they haven't seen much tabletime. Perhaps I'll drag them out of retirement.

• Platoons are kinda back, different to how we have seen them before (not like back in 2nd/3rd ed). Special Deatchment rules (kinda like Dark eldar) and there is a platoon keyword

Interested in seeing how this works. I run out of Troops slots fairly frequently, so I hope there's some help in fielding more basic infantry. 

• Cadian shock troop squads can double up on SW. Snipee rifles are Tanith specific now, or elite if in a different army..

I've got a special weapon squad with sniper rifles – well, had, as it looks like SWS are gone. Not quite sure I understand the rumour. Can I field them any more? In an infantry squad that then counts as Elites(?), or as a counts-as Tanith special unit?

• new lord solar charachter he has a movement of 12 so he is a Calvary model. (Supreme commander)

Awesome. Horses are awesome.

• No conscripts (but whiteshields have a datasheet)
• No Veteans

Sorry for anyone whose army background was themed around these. Happily doesn't affect me too much, as I always preferred the 'regular' infantry squads for theme reasons.

• No special Weapon squads

Bit of a downer here – I've got two (melta and sniper) that will now sit in cases 'til next edition, unless the Platoon rules allow me to paint up some more infantrymen and split them across new infantry squads.

• Rough riders confirmed to be back

Single best rumour. Delighted to see Rough Riders back, and excited for the potential new models.

• command squads are back. You attach people to them like the old days. Officer 4 guardsmen. Then a officer of fleet / ordnance / astropath. They all have 1 wound.

Ah, that makes much more sense. Being a big fan of the advisors, it's nice not to have to gobble up Elites slots for them.

• You can also attach Ogryn body guard which has the “big rule” do if you target the unit you have to use his toughness etc. same as the one previewed in the chaos Ogryn

Cool! A close second to the Rough Riders rules. Having cool weird stuff in a Command Squad is a nice opportunity for aesthetics.

• Preachers / engineers are still independent and have more wounds etc

Again, nice to hear that these units will (hopefully) have a bit more utility. I always like to field a few priests (tech and otherwise), but they rarely do much currently.

• Orders still spread

Not sure I understand this, I'm afraid.

 

Again, thank you!

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The Bombadiers rule seems a little bit underwhelming.

if you could daisy chain voxes so to speak that would make sense and be much better.

 

for example

+1 to hit if artillery targets a unit that is within LoS of a friendly unit with a vox caster, and there is a friendly unit with a vox caster within “6 of the artillery.

 

this way you could set an infantry squad, mostly barebones, just a mortar and vox up near the artillery in question, and any vox equipped unit could then relay firing data to the artillery via the nearby vox man.

[Captain Caine 24th]

I love my heavy weapons on scenic bases, but it's time to thank them, and wish them well in retirement. As to my death riders, we shall see what the base size is - they may yet be saved (well... assuming the new rumored ones are krieg not atilla right?!). 

 

Warlord. I've got my eye on MASTER TACTICIAN. I'm always a fan of redeploy (be it strat, warlord, or relic). Unnecessary for savants, but deployment is just so important and I'm not good at it. It's usually pure chaos for me (figuring out terrain rules, learning new enemy army rules, paying attention to who's rolling for what, etc.). Redeploy saves lives. But, this might be 'infantry' or 'tanith' only or some odd thing. LEAD BY EXAMPLE would seem to (by implication) mean that officers can no longer order themselves. 

 

Relic. AUTO RELIQUARY depending on wording and keywords, an extra order can be crucial. BARBICANT'S KEY - i'm not familiar with the reference to veil of shadows, but I'm taking this to be a transport exploit. Depending on keywords could be really great. 

 

Command Squad. Better durability + strategic reserve exploit + specific secondaries. 

 

Orders. I took the 'orders still spread' to mean that FAQ would still work. So an order to unit #1 could be made to unit #2, even though unit #2 is further away, assuming the officer has the ability to issue 2 orders. So it's not an extra order, but that orders can be disseminated or spread out further. Could be totally wrong here though. 

 

Movement Suppression/Interference. Adding a -2 (tank order PINNING FIRE); or -1 to hit (infantry order SUPPRESSING FIRE); or psychic MENTAL SHACKLES for -2 move, adv/charge, all sound really interesting - especially if the first two here are based on hits, not wounds, or kills. Even if I can't kill something, in a larger strategic picture, I can mitigate enemy potential movement, charges, objectives, etc. You might say this isn't much, but little things adding up is often the AG/IM strategy. So, like 9th edition wounding anything on 6's, and Hammer of the emperor getting auto wounds, this type of ability can add utility to otherwise misplaced, mismatched, nearly dead, or irrelevant units. And maybe more directly, having a bag of tricks for an enemy that includes movement mitigation measures might help against those unkillable units some armies will field.  

 

Regiments. Getting a new codex and debating the best new regiment choices is like christmas morning on the B&C. I look forward to the full release. Still, I think some of these rules are going to be workable straight away. Some maybe not, as the old jump out of a chimera and light 'em up with plasma or melta might not work with new infantry unit organization, or elimination of special weapon teams (or even be cost-jus contempt' marines). If it turns out true that you have to give up hammer of the emperor there's a real choice to be made. Maybe just really skewed lists would for go HotE for specitified damage output towards 'armor offic traits. Presently I like what I see, but want more than two at a time... 

 

So, while I'm not really playing cadian these days, I really hope the Dorn is cool looking. Lord Solar is interesting from a historical perspective on the Macharian Crusade. Rules-wise, any leader with 12" movement is really interesting, and something potentially very helpful for guard. However, being the greatest mortal leader in recent memory, I suspect points will be rather high, and extra CP. 

[jaxom]

5 hours ago, apologist said:

• Orders still spread

Not sure I understand this, I'm afraid.

Guard got a change to how orders work in one of the match-play balance updates. An order is issued to a single unit, but will also affect eligible units within 6" of that single unit.

Quote

Each time a <Regiment> unit with the Voice of Command ability issues one of the following orders to a <Regiment> Infantry unit, that same order can be issued to one or more other friendly <Regiment> Infantry units (excluding Officer units) that are within 6" of the unit that order was originally issued to: Take Aim!; First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!; Bring it Down!; Forwards, for the Emperor!; Get Back in the Fight!; Fix Bayonets!.

And there's a similar update for tank orders. 

 

1 hour ago, Captain Caine 24th said:

I love my heavy weapons on scenic bases, but it's time to thank them, and wish them well in retirement.

My HWT in Infantry Squads may have to be reorganized into a heavy weapon squad. I think they all have autocannons. Honestly, it's been forever since I took my Guard out. I have a lovingly converted Veteran Squad with so much plasma and they may end up as a Kill-Team. I guess their HWT is just get retired.

 

I'm annoyed at myself about the rumored Scion special weapon changes. I understand why they are very likely true, but I also spend a lot of time and effort to convert my Scion squads. I painted each squad a bit differently, so splitting off the special weapons to make new squads is going to be a pain.

[domsto]

I am very curious about the Statschanges we will receive. Particular the Battlecannon. As i understand it, tank Commanders lose their bs+3 and doubleshoot so at least the Weapons have to get some sort of buff to compensate these major nerfs. But as the Battlecannon is featured in the Knight Codex as well and there it has no better statline as it currently has...

 

[sairence]

Knight and Chaos Battlecannons have flat damage 3, like Gatekeeper. And I think the Chaos Vindicator has D3+3 shots for its Demolisher?

 

So I expect our turrets to fall on similar stats. Battlecannon stays with random shots at long range, but flat damage, Demo gets more reliable shots but still swingy damage and has to get close. It's the other turrets that need significant glow ups, to actually have viable roles again. The Executioner for example, should have its overcharged profile as the baseline, with the option for more oomph. Other turrets are mostly useless. And beyond all that, our vehicles need a way to fall back and shoot/fire while engaged.

 

And what has been a consistent rumour is that doubleshots go away in favour of +1BS on turrets. Which would make the baseline Russ much better and would shift the balance away from a few elite tanks to lots of cheaper, regular ones.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, sairence said:

Knight and Chaos Battlecannons have flat damage 3, like Gatekeeper. And I think the Chaos Vindicator has D3+3 shots for its Demolisher?

 

So I expect our turrets to fall on similar stats. Battlecannon stays with random shots at long range, but flat damage, Demo gets more reliable shots but still swingy damage and has to get close. It's the other turrets that need significant glow ups, to actually have viable roles again. The Executioner for example, should have its overcharged profile as the baseline, with the option for more oomph. Other turrets are mostly useless. And beyond all that, our vehicles need a way to fall back and shoot/fire while engaged.

 

And what has been a consistent rumour is that doubleshots go away in favour of +1BS on turrets. Which would make the baseline Russ much better and would shift the balance away from a few elite tanks to lots of cheaper, regular ones.

I’m just hoping the exterminator is the cheapest option by far. Kinda want to see the annihilator come back too.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Mordian glory says he’s heard rumors the wyvern and death strike will be going away.

[Emperor Ming]

Thats just into the realms of fantasy

 

Wyvern is one of the newer kits

[duz_]

That sounds extremely unlikely retiring 2 relatively new kits

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Guess it depends on how well they’ve been selling.

[The Pounder]

Yeah, I’m calling bs on this too! I can’t see them dropping (relatively) new kits.

 

I’m hoping Inquisitor_Lensoven is right about the Exterminator getting a huge improvement. 
 

I reckon GW could do a lot more to make all the turret weapons both viable and distinct.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Jud Cottrell said:

Yeah, I’m calling bs on this too! I can’t see them dropping (relatively) new kits.

 

I’m hoping Inquisitor_Lensoven is right about the Exterminator getting a huge improvement. 
 

I reckon GW could do a lot more to make all the turret weapons both viable and distinct.

Yep, hopefully the vanquisher will go up to S9 maybe even S10.

they just aren’t different enough from the battle cannon to be worth if.

[domsto]

6 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Yep, hopefully the vanquisher will go up to S9 maybe even S10.

they just aren’t different enough from the battle cannon to be worth if.

You are thinking to small my friend.

The Vanquisher cannon must get a similar statline as the Tau Railgun to be lore accurate and viable. 

[Bonzi]

11 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Mordian glory says he’s heard rumors the wyvern and death strike will be going away.

I'm gonna be honest, stuff like this makes me really doubt that a lot of the rumors coming out are more than 50% accurate.  The Wyvern is a newer dual kit with the hydra.  Same with the Death strike being a dual kit with the Manticore (one of the MVPs of recent guard meta).  GW isn't going to axe half of a kit they've already made when they could just tweak rules and points to make those models popular.  A rename or a major rework of their rules maybe, but no booted from the dex.

 

While most of the rumors seem plausible, stuff like this makes me wonder if the frenzy isn't starting to muddy the waters a lot.