How to make loyalist traitors and traitor loyalists: lore, painting and modeling

[Gamiel]

Since we seems to lake a thread about discussing how to make our traitor members of Loyalist Legions or loyalists members of Traitor Legions. There are lots of other threads where the discussion have appeared but more as a derailing or side discussions.

So here we have a thread for explicit talking about how to make you Traitor Ultramarines stand out from their Loyalist brothers, or your Loyalist Night Lords form their traitors and cowards kin on the other side. And how to explain their existance.

 

With that said, here are links to some of the threads where this discussion have happened before:

 

 

 

Will poste some of the thoughts and suggestions from those threads here later.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Gamiel

[lost_angel]

One of the things I love about the lore provided is that the there are a lot of grey shades when it comes to defining what a traitor actually is. In the case of loyalists legions with a traitor faction the obvious ones would be White Scars and  Dark Angels. 

Where it gets interesting for me are the  greyer areas where factions may not have explicitly declared for Horus but may have acted in a way that was contrary to the goals of the loyalist camp or kick started a direction which may have seen them ultimately turn away from the imperium.

There’s a ton of scope here and GW have already given us some hints on how this could play out. For example, the loyalist book gives some indication on how an Ultramarines force might be motivated to turn.  

A couple of other examples that spring to mind are the dominant faction of Iron Hands who, after practically gifting Meduson to the SoH, quietly seemed to retire from the heresy.

Another would be the salamander promethean extremists under xiaphus Jurr who, according to forgeworld, are walking down a very shaky path.

It’s not much of a stretch to say your dudes have taken these starting points to a nasty conclusion and build your army accordingly.

[Etruscan]

Super interesting thread. The lore has so many blanks to fill that there is space for some imaginative takes on things, within certain parameters. If I had the time and inclination I’d love to do a force of loyalist Iron Warriors. Also loved the couple of instances where some of the old guard of the World Eaters and Death Guard were disgusted by the transformation of their legions so there is ample room there for quasi-loyalist Death Guard/World Eaters.

Where I have to disagree personally, and this is purely a personal interpretation, is the whole notion of traitor Salamanders as a concept. My understanding was that they eschewed all advances from the Word Bearers chaplains because of the strength of their Promethean belief system, therefore they had none of the insidious Lodges that infiltrated so many other legions. My own take on the whitewashing of the Promethean extremists was not that they turned to Chaos but that they probably went too far down the path of worshipping Cassian Dracos. His image was a notable part of the armour markings of the Promethean extremist in one Forgeworlds Black Books. Of course this is just my opinion and the beauty of the setting is that in some instances there is ambiguity.

[Gamiel]

Regarding Traitor Loyalists so are here some thoughts regarding possible lore/reason why they decided to side with Horus, previously posted in the threads linked to in the first post.

By me: 

- the easiest reason I can think of is that they were turned to Horus side before the big traumatic event and now have made their bed. Or just consider daddy stupid for not siding with Horus and deserving what he got

- one easy way is to go the Iron Warrior rot: they are part of a force put in a position of garrison duty which may be highly important and their presence is what have discouraged many attacks or the spark of rebellion but for them it feels like they have been cast aside while their brethren and primarch reap glory. And then somebody representing Lorgar or Horus appear and begin to stroke this resentment, and then offers them a chance for glory and revenge themselves on the Legion/Empire they feel have betrayed them. You don't even need for the Primach to dislike them or meaning to make them feel unwanted, just that they belive that it's so Alt. the same premise but an explorer fleet that found little in the way of glory or vorthy enemies. 

- They believe themself betrayed for some reason, and the traitors are the ones they see as showing them the light or came to their rescue when their fellow loyalist did not (this from their perspective, if you ask the loyalist proper they may have another version).

- They were part of a united force togheter with one of the Traitor Legions' forces, that was part of a explorer-fleet/similar and during that time they did things they feel ashamed for and feel it easier to just side with the Traitors (who has no problem with that they have done) than return to their Legion and admit what they have done.

- they are old guards and non-[Primarch's homeworld] recruits (maybe from a bastion force or an explorer force) that don't like what their Primarch and/or the Emperor is doing to their Legion and belive that Horus will return things to how they were.

- in deep danger, and believed lost to the Legion, they made pacts with things the Imperial Truth deny exist, those new allies/masters have told them to fight alongside Horus forces

- they were fighting alongside the Word Bearers and the WB was able to turn them into the worship of the Chaos gods (those that was not turned was likley killed off)

- they belive that their Primarch will side/have sided with Horus and are only doing his will by fighting alongside fellow Horus sworn

- they were seconded to one of the Traitor Legions for a very long time and find themselves feeling more loyal toward the Legion they were seconded to than to their kin or Primarch. And when the Legion they were seconded to turned traitor they turned with them.

- they are not real traitors-from-Lolalist-Legion but Alpha Legion marines pretending to be.

 

by others:

On 11/5/2021 at 3:33 PM, Noserenda said:

I mean there is plenty of good reasons for Loyalists to side with Horus, exactly the same reasons all the Traitors took for one thing, plus Lodges, long term secondments or cooperation or personal grudges against their Primarchs/leadership. 

For example my traitor Salamanders are formed around a core of Terrans who were horrified by Vulkans changes to the legion when they came back from a Expedition fleet which was a mix of them and Luna Wolves and pulled strings to keep themselves off and away from the main Legion wherever possible, often alongside the Sons of Horus with whom they had built a strong bond. When the Heresy came they sided with Horus without hesitation and turned their guns on their "brothers" at the dropsite massacre with little hesitation, before striking their colours and taking up the Eye of Horus instead.

I use blackshields because i think that represents a force that has rejected their Legion culture and is in a bit of a tight spot regards logistics better :) 

On 11/29/2021 at 9:57 PM, StrangerOrders said:

As for traitor Loyalists... there is stuff in the Black Books about at least one Space Wolf company and a White Scar company that were seconded to the Warmaster for some reason or other and got turned. You also have examples of insane Iron Hand groups doing random and extremely questionable stuff left and right (thinking about the guys with the necromancer swords).

On 12/22/2021 at 11:36 PM, LameBeard said:

In the absence of this, my best ideas for 'Loyalist Legions siding with Horus' would be witnesses to the Emperor's atrocities.

 

Example 1: An Ultramarine captain, who was brought up in Ultramar (the relatively civilised part of the galaxy), is present at Monarchia.  A legion is shamed and a people dispossessed, blinded and killed, just to teach a Primarch a lesson? This is a collective punishment of innocents and a war crime on a huge scale. On what is, essentially, the most compliant planet in the galaxy. The captain is sickened and ashamed for having taken part, disgusted at his own Primarch for such disinterest. Brooding on this for years, slowly turning his company, he takes the chance when he hears about an alternative, the true honourable warrior that is Horus. Naturally he has to be the other side of the galaxy and utterly ignorant of Calth and the Shadow Crusade until he's in way, way too deep ...

 

Example 2: Someone present at Nikaea, sympathetic to Magnus. Perhaps a Librarian or other officer, or a group of marines. I think Sanguinius was sympathetic, so perhaps they are Blood Angels. They see the Emperor's hypocrisy this day.  Then, through coincidence, they also witness, or see the aftermath of Prospero. They know nothing about Magnus breaking the webway, they take the Emperor at his word - this is the consequence of Magnus maintaining a Librarius.  They see an act of violence and betrayal by the Emperor, and the savagery of his wolves. For Magnus was only seeking enlightenment and following his nature.  And if this group of Blood Angels know of the flaw, and of Sanguinius's own fears about that empty plinth on Terra, then they reason it is only a matter of time before the Emperor turns on them.  Horus's offer is a chance of salvation - both their honour and survival depend on joining him.

On 12/29/2021 at 2:58 AM, Indefragable said:

Not to trample your idea, but personally I would take it that one step further and say:

Hidden Content

the UM Captain is in fact so horrified that he seeks atonement from the Word Bearers for Monarchia and sees his former Legion has complicit and deserving of WB retribution...but the WB would just gladly sacrifice him as part of a dark ritual, so instead some part of Traitor command sees the UM Captain for the asset he is and says "yes yes you will get your atonement, but we need you in sector B instead."

B. Generic to all legions: How would that sort of sentiment not be handled internally within a Legion? Isstvan III was essentially the culmination of internal dissent; disagreements on direction of the participating Legions (whether overtly stated or not). So there would have to be a compelling reason such dissent was not and could not be sorted out within the Legion ; there would have to be a reason they not only turn their back on their Legion, but on their genesire specifically, most especially for the ones with cults of personality or extreme personal loyalty like the BA. Especially since in every single case other than perhaps the DA and WS, the Loyalist Legions are betrayed. Thus the rational self-interest course of self-preservation would be to stay Loyal or bug out and go Blackshield...but openly siding with the Traitors would be a bold move and essentially have to be determined pre-betrayal. 

 

C. Blood Angels specifically:

  Reveal hidden contents

Book 8: Malevolence goes into great detail of just how much of a transformation Sanguinius enacted with the IX Legion when he reunited with them. The pre-Sangy BA were essentially a living, self-replicating fire-and-forget bio weapon. They were the bottom of the barrel in terms of Legion standing and rather literally when it came to recruiting practices as the IX geneseed could work with the widest range of aspirants including many mutants and abhuman strains. From this army of "Eaters of the Dead" that was kept at arm's length by the rest of the Imperium, Sanguinius raised them up into a coherent fighting force, perhaps the single most potent one in the eyes of Horus himself. And beyond that, Sanguinius instilled in each BA a sense of personal worth and self-confidence; a combo of martial pride to engender both unity of purpose and individual prowess and humanistic value. As if that's not enough, the psychic and genetic bond Sanguinius had with his sons was unmatched by the other Legions. Oh and 80% of the Legion was sent to Signus Prime where they were further bonded to each other and their genesire through that shared betrayal and baptism by (hell)fire. If they survived...

 

...put that all together and it would have to take a serious something for a Blood Angel to turn against his brethren. 

 

 

 

Again, not to trample your idea, but how I would tweak it:

 

Hidden Content

The Traitor BA:

1. know about their genetic flaw

2. feel their dad is not taking it seriously enough

3. feel particularly comfortable/bonded with Horus, in a reflection of the deep bond between Horus and Sanguinius

4. via 3 they come to know both what happened on Prospero and designs for Signus Prime

5. are deceived into thinking that Signus Prime is essentially an isolation move rather than an annihilation move

6. ...feel that Signus Prime is for the best as it will isolate Sanguinius/the bulk of the Legion while Horus can remove the Emperor and thus find a cure for them

 

Essentially, they think the best way to deal with dad's problem is to lock him in the basement to give uncle joe time to stage a proper intervention. 

 

...or of course there's the classic "we liked our Legion better before our Primarch showed up, Horus promises to turn back the clock" motif. Aka the Traitor Raven Guard way. 

 

Again, I want to emphasize that I'm not trying to overshadow or bang on your ideas, but rather refine them to make them a bit more plausible given that one of the community's chief complaints about the HH series as a whole is how implausible many core decisions are. Aka. Horus had a single bad dream on Davin and that set off the entire thing. 

On 12/29/2021 at 3:09 AM, WrathOfTheLion said:

I could see some other reasons, like maybe some of the Destroyer squads or organizations dealing with all of that are isolated in some Legions or treated with general disdain, allowing them to feel distant. I could see some sort of traitor Salamanders that way.

 

Or perhaps there's a transition of blackshield to traitor. Especially later on in the heresy, perhaps a band that started out deserting ends up having to align with Chaos out of desperation in some way. Maybe they come across some Xenos, and would be wiped out except a bargain is brought to them now that they're isolated and have nowhere to turn.

 

This is a concept that I think could work. Instead of creating a rationalization of why they would want to make that choice, craft the scenario where they don't have a choice anymore.

On 12/31/2021 at 5:07 PM, Catullus said:

Re traitor members of the loyal legions...

For the Iron Hands, I'd play up the camaraderie and connections to the IIIrd, with lodge membership and the embrace of the perfection of the machine standing in conflict with Ferrus Manus' rejection (and pending censure) of that interpretation of doctrine. Placing Fulgrim-as-deliverer right as the ruling caste of the legion are wiped out on Is(s)tva(a)n, I think there's some grist for the story-mill there.

On 5/2/2022 at 3:16 PM, dicebod said:

I've always had a hankering to do a traitor space wolves force. I imagine they were a Great Company seconded to the Luna Wolves and as that legion changed, so did they, embracing their more feral aspect and discarding Leman Russ in favor of a darker Wolf King.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Gamiel

[Gamiel]

Regarding how to design your Traitor Loyalists so they stand out from their loyal brethren so are here some general ideas: 

- Go back to their pre-Primarch colour scheme 

- Paint over their Legion symbol with the Eye of Horus/similar

- Show that they have thrown away the Imperium's rules by giving them xeno or esoteric weapons 

- have them bearing grisly trophies

- use CSM parts, even if you remove/don't use any parts with mutations or Chaos stars will they still look different compared with normal marines in the same colours

- have them invert their Legion's colour scheme

- have their symbol scratched off and their armour covered in scratches and repairs that have not been covered with fresh paint (showing that they no longer have respect for their old colours)

- maybe they are on the way to fall to one of the Chaos gods (or greater unaligned deamons) and that have begun to show in how they have begun to paint their armour and how they pic their wargear

- they have begun to give their armour "rad" decorations that is not common among their loyal brethren (was thinking symbols and pattern that are classic teenage/rebellion, those that you find on cars or jackets, ex. flames, skull-n-crossbones, graffiti, the anarchy A, etc.)

- if they joined Horus' side because of hanging around one of the traitor Legions a bit to much/long could you and some symbols, colour/s, bling, armour-parts and/or wargear from (or associated with) that Legion to your models.

- Pick one of the canon name-n-colour-n-little-else CSM warbands - like the Children of Purgatos or Extinction Angels - and declare that your traitors will one day become that warband, and make nods toward their colours and/or symbol in your painting while still keeping your traitors Legion origin visible.

 

[Kizzdougs]

This is a really interesting topic. I feel like it's much easier to do loyalists from Traitor Legions compared to traitors from Loyal Legion. 

When you're making loyal marines from Traitor Legions the obvious answer is just to paint and model them in their uncorrupted Great Crusade form. We all know what the Legions looked like before the Heresy, so that's easy enough. They see themselves as the last true members of their once loyal Legion and proudly display their uncorrupted heraldry for all to see. Alternatively you could go down the route of defiling or removing their Legion heraldry, as a sign of their shame at their Legion's betrayal, but this approach leads pretty quickly to a more Black Shields type of aesthetic. 

Painting and converting traitors from Loyal Legions takes a bit more thought. Obviously the nature of their betrayal will have a big influence on the appearance of the individual marines. Are they corrupted by Chaos? Are they loyal to Horus or just out for themselves? How long have they been traitors? etc. Personally if I was to do some traitors for Loyal Legions I'd probably go with the loyal to Horus approach, rather than corrupted by Chaos. I'd add in some Sons of Horus heraldry to show their new allegiance and maybe incorporate some of the SoH traditions such as trophy taking or the displaying of lodge and mirror coins. I think this kind of approach would work especially well for an army like traitor White Scars. 

 

My personal EC army is a Loyalist force. I took the more straightforward approach of just trying to replicate their Great Crusade colour scheme and heraldry. Personally I feel like when most people paint and model their Traitor ECs they don't make enough effort to show the Legion's corruption and fall from grace.

 

[Mike8404]

This post is super helpful and has given me more than a few ideas to use for my Traitor Dark Angels army I'm building

[Gamiel]

8 hours ago, Kizzdougs said:

When you're making loyal marines from Traitor Legions the obvious answer is just to paint and model them in their uncorrupted Great Crusade form.

But what if their uncorrupted Great Crusade look is more or less the same as their HH look? Or if you want to make loyalist Sons of Horus or Death Guards, not Lunar Wolves or Dusk Raiders? And if the later, how do you do your lore?

 

Re. possible lore for loyalist Sons of Horus: we know that the Sons do have a notable gang structure where many officers are in many ways gang-leaders and warrior-lords, having their subordinates loyalty through charisma and deeds. Leading to a strong loyalty to the officer as a person, more so than the office or the organisation.

This would likely makes it easy for a group of SoH that had been cut of from the main force until after the start of the Heresy to stay loyal to Terra, as long as the marine leading them decide to side with the Emperor rather than their primarch. 

This could be used to create loyalist SoH that are not just old Lunar Wolves, but mostly/fully of Cthonia origin.
 

 

[Kizzdougs]

37 minutes ago, Gamiel said:

But what if their uncorrupted Great Crusade look is more or less the same as their HH look? Or if you want to make loyalist Sons of Horus or Death Guards, not Lunar Wolves or Dusk Raiders? And if the later, how do you do your lore?

If their GC look is pretty much the same as their HH then there's no issue. Having said that, most if not all of the Traitor Legions started showing signs of corruption pretty quickly, some more than others of course.

If I wanted to make Loyalist DG or SoH I wouldn't go with the Dusk Raiders or Luna Wolves. I'd probably stick pretty closely to the GC scheme for the DG, but the SoH might need a bit more work. Maybe removing the eye of Horus symbol etc, but I don't think you'd need to change their sea green armour.

 

 

[Brofist]

Aesthetically, you can play with your color scheme or with how the models are represented. Pragmatically speaking, the harder you go into one of those directions the less your models will 'read' like the legion you're trying to represent. Go hard with both conversions and an alternative color scheme and your guys won't resemble their legion anymore. For something like blackshields this is desirable, but if you're doing traitor loyalists or loyalist traitors you want them to still be visually associated to the parent legion.

I'd say, as a rule of thumb, pick one direction to lean into while touching the other one lightly. Cover your ultramarines with spikes... but paint them the way you'd expect loyalists to look. Go with a bloody color scheme for your IFs... but limit yourself to IF bits that are in everyones IF army. That way you're making them different, but keeping the overall aesthetic within your legions wheelhouse.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Brofist

[Gamiel]

@Kizzdougs think you need to do an EDIT

[Gamiel]

On 8/29/2022 at 12:57 PM, Kizzdougs said:

If I wanted to make Loyalist DG or SoH I wouldn't go with the Dusk Raiders or Luna Wolves. I'd probably stick pretty closely to the GC scheme for the DG, but the SoH might need a bit more work. Maybe removing the eye of Horus symbol etc, but I don't think you'd need to change their sea green armour.

Adding the double headed eagle, eagle heads, lightning bolts, the imperialis, and similar symbols of the Emperor/Imperium instead of the Eye of Horus (or the Black Legion's eye) would likley make them stand out a bit more than just removing the eye. But keep the rest of the SoH markings (coin tokens, tropies, Cuthonian markings), if you really want to say loyal SoH/Cuthonians.

[Gamiel]

Here is another existing thread about traitor Loyalists, in this case Ultramarines:

 

Have also added it the original post.

 

[NinjaBadger7]

On 8/29/2022 at 1:09 AM, Kizzdougs said:

This is a really interesting topic. I feel like it's much easier to do loyalists from Traitor Legions compared to traitors from Loyal Legion. 

When you're making loyal marines from Traitor Legions the obvious answer is just to paint and model them in their uncorrupted Great Crusade form. We all know what the Legions looked like before the Heresy, so that's easy enough. They see themselves as the last true members of their once loyal Legion and proudly display their uncorrupted heraldry for all to see. Alternatively you could go down the route of defiling or removing their Legion heraldry, as a sign of their shame at their Legion's betrayal, but this approach leads pretty quickly to a more Black Shields type of aesthetic. 

Painting and converting traitors from Loyal Legions takes a bit more thought. Obviously the nature of their betrayal will have a big influence on the appearance of the individual marines. Are they corrupted by Chaos? Are they loyal to Horus or just out for themselves? How long have they been traitors? etc. Personally if I was to do some traitors for Loyal Legions I'd probably go with the loyal to Horus approach, rather than corrupted by Chaos. I'd add in some Sons of Horus heraldry to show their new allegiance and maybe incorporate some of the SoH traditions such as trophy taking or the displaying of lodge and mirror coins. I think this kind of approach would work especially well for an army like traitor White Scars. 

 

My personal EC army is a Loyalist force. I took the more straightforward approach of just trying to replicate their Great Crusade colour scheme and heraldry. Personally I feel like when most people paint and model their Traitor ECs they don't make enough effort to show the Legion's corruption and fall from grace.

 

Can I ask how you did your purple? it's exactly what I'm looking for :)

[Gamiel]

An idea for a Loyalist Sons of Horus that have returned to their old colours and name could be that they want to show that they are truly wolves not Sons. And do that by using the Space Wolves wolf helmets, either from the HH head set or from the Grey Hunter/Blood Claws box, and if you get the later do you also have lots of other armour parts, weapon and such with wolf decorations.

 

A similar thought but to the other way could be that you have your traitor loyalist show that they are loyal to Horus by wolf-based symbols (the wolf and the moon as symbols was still associated to Horus and the SoH even after they changed name after all), as in using wolf stuff from the Grey Hunter (or similar) box. Even if I would suggest clipping of the parts with rune-tokens or fang/claw bling since that’s not really something that just say wolf and more nod toward Viking and barbarian

Edited September 21, 2022 by Gamiel

[LameBeard]

There was a thread somewhere where we agreed loyalists have blue eye lenses and traitors have red eye lenses. Job done!

[Gamiel]

Regarding Loyalist Traitorous, since there are fanon theories that some of the canon successor chapters we know of are of Traitor gene-seed could you paint or kitbash your Loyalist Traitorous in ways that suggest that they will be the foundation on which those successors will be created from. Personally I find many of those theories weak (most of them boil down to “they are not like daddy” and/or “their colours, symbol and/or name is similar to one of the Traitor Legion ones”) but that don’t mean I’m against people having fun by using those theories to mark out their Loyalist Traitorous. And yes some of them are established as being created in notably later Foundings but that’s something we can just ignore for this, or declare that “everything you have been told is a lie” (even if I have decided to ignore the ones from the Ultima Founding). The chapters that I mention are based on lists of “possible traitor successors” that I have found on the internet, many of them are based on the flimsiest of evidence and/or wishful thinking. And I say that, by those suggestions I’m making here, I’m not saying that any of those chapters are of Traitor gene-seed or that I believe they are.

III – Emperor’s Children – Death Eagles, here you could just use their first colour scheme or make nods to it instead of using it for every marine, or use their secund one but have purple instead of black (Green Stuff Flu have done that for his DE who are EC successors in his canon). Maybe nod toward that they written down as RG successors by using some RG bling/upgrade kit parts for them. Red Scorpions, have the scorpion as a returning iconography, maybe as their company/such symbol. Have extra Apothecaries. Maybe ad some black areas (since the RS originally was black, not grey) – maybe use praetorian-chan’s colouring as a suggestion – or use plain yellow instead of gold.

IV – Iron Warriors – Minotaurs, either blink to the current incarnation by having bronze (and maybe some dark red) as the spot colour, maybe as the pauldron colour, or their original design (even if Eadwin Brown, who was the one that stated that the Min’ are IW successors also said that the current Min’:s are possibly not the same as the original) by having red and yellow as the spot colour (or have all the hazard stripes in yellow and red). You could also go full bronze but keep the yellow/black hazard stripes and all other IW paraphernalia. Silver Skulls, have no idea here, the SS have not to my knowledge been given anything that visually mark them out from any other chapter beside their couleurs and that is a bit to similar already to the IW, maybe nod toward that they written down as Um successors by using some Um bling/upgrade kit parts for them. Or since Sarah Cawkwell original thought to have them as WS successors (mentioned in the replies to this tweet, among other places) maybe use WS bling/upgrade kit parts, or both. Have them being led by a Librarian. Maybe no hazard stripes, or colour them silver instead of iron.

VII – Night Lords – Carcharodons Astra, grey as spot colour or whole grey areas. Polynesian-ish markings. Bling based on aquatic animals and/or equipment.

XII – World Eaters – Minotaurs (the original red and yellow incarnation), red and yellow stripes or red and yellow areas, maybe do one of the red n white version of the WS armour we have seen but with yellow instead of white. Blue bull/bull’s head as returning iconography. Storm Wardens, use a lot more blue, power swords for your praetors, swords instead of axes, white lightning bolt as a returning symbol.

 XIV – Death Guard – Sons of Antaeus, have no idea here, the SoA have not to my knowledge been given anything that visually mark them out from any other chapter beside their couleurs. Maybe nod toward that they written down as Um successors by using some Um bling/upgrade kit parts for them. Since Antaeus is from Greek/Berber mythology, maybe try to make nods toward Greek and/or Berber culture if you can.

XV – Thousand Sons – Blood Raven, use bone as the colour to mark out officers’ helmets, and as spot colour, maybe for the pauldrons also. Could make a nod toward Gabriel Angelos by giving the preator a hammer as weapon (even if Angelos’ hammer is not some chapter relic but instead was gifted to him by the =][=). Maybe go with showing the blood raven monic on their sleeves by giving them blooddrop and raven skulls/feathers bling, but that don’t really fit with the Blood Ravens look, since they (unlike e.g. the Blood Angels or Space Wolves) don’t wear their name on their sleeves.

XVI – Lunar Wolves/Sons of Horus – Shadow Wolves, the Wolves have been described with two different colour schemes, one silver and dark grey, the other purple. Nod toward one of them by using silver and dark grey, or purple colour as spot colour. Use lots of Space Wolves parts.

XVII – World Bearers – Don’t know of any.

XX – Alpha Legion – Sons of Orar, red as spot colour, and/or white pauldrons. Red omega as a returning symbol. Maybe nod toward that they written down as Um successors by using some Um bling/upgrade kit parts for them. Sons of Jaghatai (have not appeared in any list I have seen but since the Sons of Orar have been suggested as being AL successors more or less just because they have an omega as symbol do I think we can throw in the Sons of Jaghatai since they have an alpha as part of their symbol), white right pauldron, purple as a spot colour (if you use one of the HH-era AL colour schemes that’s not purple). Maybe nod toward that they written down as WS successors by using some WS bling/upgrade kit parts for them. Omega Marines (have not appeared in any list I have seen but as with the Sons of Jaghatai, if the Sons of Orar have been suggested as being AL successors more or less just because they have an omega as symbol do I think we can throw in the Omega Marines who not only have an omega as a symbol but it’s also in their name), white omega (with or without a skull in it) and/or skull as a returning symbol, white and black as spot colours, but at different sides. Maybe the armour colours split (green/blue, green/purple, or similar) as a nod to the OM’s split colours.

 

Any thoughts, suggesting or comments? Any chapters I have missed? Any of my suggestions you would do differently?

Edited September 21, 2022 by Gamiel

[Claws and Effect]

You missed: 

Raven Guard - Ashen Claws. 

Some of the exiled Terran Raven Guard adopted the Ashen Claws moniker during the Heresy and conducted raids against both sides. This is actually canon and they still exist in the 41st millennium. 

Unlike the Carcharodons who are hinted at having Raven Guard/Night Lords/World Eaters chimeric geneseed, the Ashen Claws are strongly hinted as having pure Raven Guard geneseed.

(Source: Outer Dark novel by Robbie McNiven)

[Gamiel]

 

On 8/28/2022 at 11:41 PM, Gamiel said:

Regarding how to design your Traitor Loyalists so they stand out from their loyal brethren so are here some general ideas: 

- Go back to their pre-Primarch colour scheme 

Here the White  Scars have many options with all their Pioneer Companies. We know of the cognomen of five of them - Soul Hunters, Grey Ghosts, Void Devils, Lions of Thapsis, and The Enders - non which are clear counterparts to any of the current known WS successors, or sucessors of unknown lineage to my understanding.

 

 

On 9/20/2022 at 10:30 AM, Claws and Effect said:

You missed: 

Raven Guard - Ashen Claws. 

Some of the exiled Terran Raven Guard adopted the Ashen Claws moniker during the Heresy and conducted raids against both sides. This is actually canon and they still exist in the 41st millennium. 

Unlike the Carcharodons who are hinted at having Raven Guard/Night Lords/World Eaters chimeric geneseed, the Ashen Claws are strongly hinted as having pure Raven Guard geneseed.

(Source: Outer Dark novel by Robbie McNiven)

Would not say I missed them since my post was about Loyalis Traitors and using fan-theories about possibly successors among loyalist chapters. And the Ashen Claws are (as you said) likley of Raven Gard (Loyalist) origin .

[Gamiel]

 

On 8/28/2022 at 11:41 PM, Gamiel said:

Regarding how to design your Traitor Loyalists so they stand out from their loyal brethren so are here some general ideas: 

[...]

- Pick one of the canon name-n-colour-n-little-else CSM warbands - like the Children of Purgatos or Extinction Angels - and declare that your traitors will one day become that warband, and make nods toward their colours and/or symbol in your painting while still keeping your traitors Legion origin visible.

And for Loyalist Traitors you could do the other way around:  Pick one of the canon name-n-colour-n-little-else chapters - like the Heralds of Vengeance or Emperor's Shields  - and declare that your traitors will one day become that chapter, and make nods toward their colours and/or symbol in your painting while still keeping your loyalists Traitor Legion origin visible.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I'm painting up some of my Raven Guard in Deliverers colors to represent terrans. Red armor, black arms full raven transfers.

This way I can give homage to the terrans and play them as Loyalists or Traitors.

Edited October 3, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten

[WrathOfTheLion]

Liber Hereticus gives some direct advice for Loyalist Emperor's Children. It mentions the Terran ones would paint certain panels/trim/armor pieces white, and then says that this was then adopted by the Loyalist remnants after Istvaan III. It gives a couple shots showing examples.

Furthermore, for traitor Emperor's Children, it mentions they should start adopting elements of black in their main paint scheme. For some vehicles, approaching the SoT, they could even be entirely black with no purple elements to their main color.

[Gamiel]

Some warband colours and concepts, some which are of loyalist traitors and traitor loyalister, from: Horus Heresy Legion and Black Shield alternate schemes : ImaginaryWarhammer (reddit.com) 

Quote

Something a little different today. Came up with some variant schemes for units within the Legions

 

Salamander 13th Siege Batallion: Pictured in pyre dune camouflage that would later appear in the Badaab war Istvaan Massacre Survivor: Many of the destroyed legions grabbed what armor they could as the fled the defeat at Istvaan, some warriors chose to continue to wear this mixed armor as a sign of remembrance

 

Jade Sons: Elements of the White Scars remained loyal to the war master and often marked themselves as such with Sons of Horus Iconography in place of Scars

 

The Betrayed: one of the many Istvaan III loyalists that survived the Istvaan III attack, the Betrayed wore blood red armor up to their chest to signify the horrific battles fought on istvaan III

 

The Stricken: Black shields that harried the traitors on the way to terra, possibly 3rd legion in origin Imperial Fist 20th Sappers: dedicated siege unit for the fists, relished the destruction of fortifications and generally looked down on by other fists, they remained a close knit group throughout the heresy

 

Gut rippers: one of the ultramarines destroyer squads, there Gut rippers were notoriously brutal during Calth

 

Iron Warriors 55th Siege Battalion: Pictured in a dazzle camo pattern used in trench warfare

 

Mud stompers: during Istvaan III many units had little time to identify themselves as loyalists, a quick shoulder swap was often the fastest and easiest way.

 

Omnissian Cogs: One of the various splinter groups from the Istvaan massacre these warriors became much more religious over machines

 

Rampagers: Many world eaters renounced their status and returned to warhound iconography once the escaped Istvaan

 

95th siege Regiment - loyalist elements of the iron warriors who painted their armor bright yellow and replaced their legion insignia with the Terran portcullis

 

The flayed: abandoned their prim arch and brothers when they discovered their deceit, the leader of the flayed was killed by Conrad while harrying the night lords, the warriors of the war band recolored their armor in his honor

 

Brothers of Set - Loyalist elements of the Sons of Horus who refused to join the warmasters traitors. They escaped before Istvaan and returned to help the loyalists at the siege of Terra

 

Kraken company: Traitor space wolves in league with Horus, they later abandoned their legion and joined up with the traitors.

 

Wardens of Bastet: A few of the wiser Thousand Sons saw what their legion was heading for and a small war band of loyalists escaped via a rogue trader ship before the burning of Prospero

 

Harald Blue Beard’s Hunters: Space wolves seconded to the Ultramarines as scout elements

 

Iron Ravens: Istvaan survivors from the iron hands and raven guard who banned together and raced to terra

 

Blood Eagles: Space wolves fallen to bloodlust after the butchery of Prospero

 

Converted: some of the weaker willed Ultramarines were converted to the traitors cause

 

Salamander 115th “Magma Guards” - used delta weapons almost exclusively, their armor also glowed red hot from unknown means.

 

[Marshal Mittens]

On 8/29/2022 at 5:15 AM, Gamiel said:

But what if their uncorrupted Great Crusade look is more or less the same as their HH look? Or if you want to make loyalist Sons of Horus or Death Guards, not Lunar Wolves or Dusk Raiders? And if the later, how do you do your lore?

 

Re. possible lore for loyalist Sons of Horus: we know that the Sons do have a notable gang structure where many officers are in many ways gang-leaders and warrior-lords, having their subordinates loyalty through charisma and deeds. Leading to a strong loyalty to the officer as a person, more so than the office or the organisation.

This would likely makes it easy for a group of SoH that had been cut of from the main force until after the start of the Heresy to stay loyal to Terra, as long as the marine leading them decide to side with the Emperor rather than their primarch. 

This could be used to create loyalist SoH that are not just old Lunar Wolves, but mostly/fully of Cthonia origin.
 

 

 

 

There was that line from the book about the siege of Cthonia with some of the Imperial Fists from there singing songs of Cthonia and Lost Prosperio, insinuating I think that the marines from the loyalist SoH and Thousand Sons on Cthonia after the siege were absorbed into the Imperial Fists. The Thousand Sons scheme there looks a lot like the exorcists of 40k. 

 

Seems like there is a lot of openings for heresy era loyalists from traitor legions.