Vindicator tactics 2.0

[Cadmus Tyro]

Hey all, 

I’m yet to use my IH vindicators in 2.0 but I’m interested whether anyone has experience using them yet. My initial impression is, like all blast weapons, they have been nerfed hard. Although they do have AP3 and brutal is an interesting rule as well. 

Apart from annihilating mechanicum units, I’m struggling to see what role they fulfill in 2.0. They used to be a great psychological threat coming in from the flanks in the HoG RoW. 
 

So frater, your thoughts please, are they still useful? 
 

Cadmus

Edited September 1, 2022 by Cadmus Tyro

[SkimaskMohawk]

Presumably they'll put in work against daemons once those are out at some point.

They seem to be a tech choice against marines if your opponent runs lots of speeders. Unfortunately,  they're bafflingly bad against masses of marines, elite units and vehicles. The fact that a vindicator can only hullpoint (unless you get lucky with chain immobilize rolls) down vehicles with its single shot is depressing.

[MARK0SIAN]

I’ve used them in 2 games so far as Iron warriors and they’ve been pretty disappointing to be honest. The blast is too small to be very effective against blobs of marines where the brutal is wasted anyway, the AP3 just means they bounce off more elite units like terminators and they can only cause 1HP of damage against vehicles and they can’t even make them explode.

Its a shame because I love them and they suit iron warriors very well in terms of theme and I’m happy to run quite middling units if they’re cool but they’re just not particularly good at anything. IMO they either need a bigger blast template or AP2. 

[Cadmus Tyro]

Yes, that was my fear theorising over the rules. I understand the reason for the design choice in limiting the affect of blast weapons, but I think they’ve gone too far and I can’t quite believe non of the play testers picked up on that. 
 

Essentially they are consigned to a niche role and the demolisher cannon is no longer the answer to all of your battlefield problems. Perhaps they should have renamed it…..

Any other thoughts? 
 

Cadmus

[Lord Krungharr]

Hmmm, yeah, AP3 is a big nerf bat.  Didn't think about that vs the multi wound infantry that I'd want them to blast.  Guess I don't want them now.

[MARK0SIAN]

42 minutes ago, Cadmus Tyro said:

Yes, that was my fear theorising over the rules. I understand the reason for the design choice in limiting the affect of blast weapons, but I think they’ve gone too far and I can’t quite believe non of the play testers picked up on that. 
 

Essentially they are consigned to a niche role and the demolisher cannon is no longer the answer to all of your battlefield problems. Perhaps they should have renamed it…..

Any other thoughts? 
 

Cadmus

Yeah it’s a very disappointing weapon now, I really think it needs AP 2, particularly as its blast so heavy infantry reroll their failed saves against it anyway so it’s got almost no chance of inflicting serious damage on any with a 2+ save. 

It’s basically a vehicle without a role now as pretty much everything it does can be done better by other things in the same points bracket. 

One thing I have noticed though is that people still have a bit of a psychological reaction to them. If they don’t run them in their own lists people just remember them as being a serious threat from the previous edition so they either focus fire on them or try to manoeuvre around them. You could maybe try and use that to your advantage but it’s a short term bonus at best, once people actually realise they’re not that potent it won’t work.

[Marshal Mittens]

With large blast they might be ok, but yeah, small blast is a huge nerf.

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Cadmus Tyro said:

Yes, that was my fear theorising over the rules. I understand the reason for the design choice in limiting the affect of blast weapons, but I think they’ve gone too far and I can’t quite believe non of the play testers picked up on that. 
 

Essentially they are consigned to a niche role and the demolisher cannon is no longer the answer to all of your battlefield problems. Perhaps they should have renamed it…..

Any other thoughts? 
 

Cadmus

Well in v3 of playtest, brutal actually did spill over (albeit at d3 instead of a flat value). The vindi shot made sense then, as you could feasibly hammer a unit that was tightly clumped.

They changed brutal into being purely single model damage and left the vindi hanging. It's unfortunately far from the only thing to feel not very well thought out with the final version, like how contemptors went from str 8 murderous strike 6+ to str 9 brutal 3 lol. Or the grav flux on the leviathan being very confused as to its point.

[Laughingman]

2 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

Yeah it’s a very disappointing weapon now, I really think it needs AP 2, particularly as its blast so heavy infantry reroll their failed saves against it anyway so it’s got almost no chance of inflicting serious damage on any with a 2+ save. 

It’s basically a vehicle without a role now as pretty much everything it does can be done better by other things in the same points bracket. 

One thing I have noticed though is that people still have a bit of a psychological reaction to them. If they don’t run them in their own lists people just remember them as being a serious threat from the previous edition so they either focus fire on them or try to manoeuvre around them. You could maybe try and use that to your advantage but it’s a short term bonus at best, once people actually realise they’re not that potent it won’t work.

 

I've run a squadron of two in some DA eskaton imperative lists. There niche appears to be smashing  Iron Hands Medusan Immortals (or any sort of 3+ armor  models that  rely on FNP).  Losing AP2 and large blast hurt, took away there *universal utility*....  That said, I probably will keep playing them, I rarely have trouble finding stuff for them to target and the vindicator itself is pretty resilient (they have the reinforced sub-type).

 

 

[bluedestiny]

Ran 2 vindis for my IW and they are very very subpar. Considering that IW now lost its additional heavy slot, the fight for heavy slot is real with many more things which outshines it.

Str 12 sounds good on paper and that's about it, with the small blast and AP3, good luck trying to get their points worth or really make an impact on enemy forces. Yes they have 4 HP and reinforced armor and better side armor.....and that's it, hey are as useful as a mobile cover. Don't mind if it is gonna stay small blast, but at least making it AP2 or even breaching 3+ will give the vindicators a reason to be taken.

[MARK0SIAN]

6 hours ago, Laughingman said:

 

I've run a squadron of two in some DA eskaton imperative lists. There niche appears to be smashing  Iron Hands Medusan Immortals (or any sort of 3+ armor  models that  rely on FNP).  Losing AP2 and large blast hurt, took away there *universal utility*....  That said, I probably will keep playing them, I rarely have trouble finding stuff for them to target and the vindicator itself is pretty resilient (they have the reinforced sub-type).

 

 

At least you’ve found a niche, I’ll keep an eye out for those kind of targets but to be honest I think I’m going to drop them which is sad. But, as Bluedestiny says, IW have a crowded heavy support slot (our two legion specific units, including our legion terminators, are in the heavy slot) so if you want them you’ve only got one other choice and sadly vindicators are hard to justify for it. They certainly will be once the plastic predators come out :)

[Cadmus Tyro]

I think VS mechanicum it will really pull its weight, it’s going to ID anything T6 or below (which now includes Castellax) but in a TAC list it seems to have really lost its place unfortunately. 

 

[Mandragola]

It's hard to disagree with the assessment that the demolisher cannon vindicator isn't going to work in this edition. It's managed to find itself a weird niche where it has hardly any good targets - basically just javelins and Castellax.

The hull is decent though, with 3hp and respectable armour. I think I quite like the laser destroyer version. Those 3 twin-linked ordnance shots are pretty likely to remove 3hp from a vehicle and they'll quite often do more than that, with exoshock (albeit only on a 6) and AP1. Unlike the demolisher cannon it's a gun you can happily point at things like dreadnoughts. To be honest it'll probably kill at least as many tactical marines too, if that's all you have to aim at.

My favourite HS tank right now is the melta predator. That also has 3 twin-linked ap1 shots at 36" range, but instead of Ordnance it gets armourbane at 18"... and you can strap a couple of lascannons on the side. Actually though the laser vindicator competes well with the melta predator, thanks to being tougher. But the predator clearly hurts things like dreadnoughts much more, with the two extra sponson shots.

[The Scorpion]

12 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Hmmm, yeah, AP3 is a big nerf bat.  Didn't think about that vs the multi wound infantry that I'd want them to blast.  Guess I don't want them now.

What about the Laser Destroyer vindicator?

[Xenith]

Used 4 in a game recently, other than sucking up incoming weapons fire with AV13 4HP, their guns didnt do much. 1HP per turn from a tank, and pretty useless v heavy infantry. My opponent had a VLD though, and as above, the 3 shots, twin linked was pretty decent. Exoshock 4+ or something on this would have been a great boon. 

[Gorgoff]

I can only agree to the assessments made so far. I play as well Iron Warriors and my Vindicator did nothing in three games. Contemptors laugh at it with 2+ armor and for killing infantry the blast is to small. 

[Mandragola]

Out of interest, what do people think about the Typhon and Cerberus? Are they just more expensive vindicators or do they bring something special?

At the moment I think the Cerberus brings something extra, with its ability to prevent enemy LoWs from firing. The Typhon has all the problems the vindicator has, though maybe having rending 4+ and a 5" blast is better. 

[Lord Krungharr]

I considered making a Typon...but then I'd never get to use Perturabo /:(

[Gattopardo]

Strength 12, rending 4+, a large blast and brutal (4)? I'd say the Typhon absolutely still has a place. It's not an auto delete button like it arguably was before, but it's far from useless I reckon.

I could see a good use for one with my Dark Angels actually. I could park it next to Marduk Sedras's Spartan and give it preferred enemy, which could be pretty good.

[Laughingman]

16 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

At least you’ve found a niche, I’ll keep an eye out for those kind of targets but to be honest I think I’m going to drop them which is sad. But, as Bluedestiny says, IW have a crowded heavy support slot (our two legion specific units, including our legion terminators, are in the heavy slot) so if you want them you’ve only got one other choice and sadly vindicators are hard to justify for it. They certainly will be once the plastic predators come out :)

The sad thing is they are "close" to being playable, but they are unlikely to be fixed rules wise. I suspect there utility in this edition will be largely against Mechanicum and daemons of the Ruinstorm.

[Mandragola]

I think that probably the laser is the best option both for the vindicator and the Cerberus/Typhon. A gun with several shots is just more useful than having a single blast. 

It’s particlarly annoying that they’re so useless against fortifications, as that’s their alleged role according to the fluff. I think giving vindicators and Typhons ignore cover would be good, though I suppose their Brutal rules partially make up for that. 

[Laughingman]

27 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

I think that probably the laser is the best option both for the vindicator and the Cerberus/Typhon. A gun with several shots is just more useful than having a single blast. 

It’s particlarly annoying that they’re so useless against fortifications, as that’s their alleged role according to the fluff. I think giving vindicators and Typhons ignore cover would be good, though I suppose their Brutal rules partially make up for that. 

 

The demolisher cannon  I imagine actually works pretty well at stripping HP and shaking Fortifications. But that is testament to how terrible GW is at writing rules for fortifications. They suffer from being the red headed stepchild of GW game systems, and HH 2.0 is no exception.

 

 

 

 

[2gud2bbad]

Sorry guys, I might overlook something.

 

The gun has brutal (3), i.e. if no Rending is triggered, a model has to roll 2+ saves. Wounds are taken on rolls of 1. If you hit cataphractii terminators with this thing without rending, it is equivalent to AP2. 3 Rolls that trigger ID on a 1 are the same as triggering ID on a 1,2 or 3. Also against Contemptors you have the potential to trigger multiple wounds or to cause flat 3 wounds against box dreadnoughts. 

 

So the AP isn't the issue, but the small template is, no?

 

I still have 3 unopened vindicators and contemplate using them for my DG. 3 of them cost 345 and give 12 HP that can move 12 inches and fire 3 small blasts. Is this really that bad?

 

EDIT:

 

I mean, looking at the value against other units in the heavy support like Scorpius, Executioner Predator with Culverins or even the LD variant of the Vindicator their value for points looks a little dire...

Edited December 27, 2022 by 2gud2bbad

[The Scorpion]

Also, they're still resin unless we usin' the Mars-pattern.

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, 2gud2bbad said:

Sorry guys, I might overlook something.

 

The gun has brutal (3), i.e. if no Rending is triggered, a model has to roll 2+ saves. Wounds are taken on rolls of 1. If you hit cataphractii terminators with this thing without rending, it is equivalent to AP2. 3 Rolls that trigger ID on a 1 are the same as triggering ID on a 1,2 or 3. Also against Contemptors you have the potential to trigger multiple wounds or to cause flat 3 wounds against box dreadnoughts. 

 

So the AP isn't the issue, but the small template is, no?

 

I still have 3 unopened vindicators and contemplate using them for my DG. 3 of them cost 345 and give 12 HP that can move 12 inches and fire 3 small blasts. Is this really that bad?

 

Well cataphractii get to rerolls failed armour saves against blasts, cutting the math to about an 8% chance to fail against the brutal 3. The Scorpius rending on a 4+ leaves them with only their invul. 

 

The small template is definitely an issue. Going from a 5" to a 3" is actually going from ~19.6"² to ~7.1"², which is rather wild. 

 

And finally, no, you can't go 12" and shoot any more. You used to be able with potms, but that mechanic has been removed. Now, you can only shoot ordnance weapons if you combat speed, which is half the movement characteristic. So 6" in this case. You add the 24" range of the gun, the centreline mount, the really small blast, and you start to see how the normal Vindicator adds up to being bad. You can take the magna laser destroyer and have a similar wounds ceiling while also being able to burn down vehicles and dreads a lot easier.