How best to pair successor tactics

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Just curious on everyone’s thoughts about successor chapter tactics.

do you guys prefer a mono role style pairing, or a more well rounded pairing?

Do you guys wish there was more focus on tactics that buffed things aside from shooting, melee and movement like psychic tactics, or more debugging tactics?

[Blindhamster]

I think they may go the way of the dodo, considering how chaos went.

[WrathOfTheLion]

That's very well possible. As a design element, I think interactions with custom traits has been one of the biggest causes of various instabilities during 9E.

It's very difficult for them to playtest or gauge those, as the mathematic complexity of options starts compounding significantly.

Edited September 5, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[UnkyHamHam]

2 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

That's very well possible. As a design element, I think interactions with custom traits has been one of the biggest causes of various instabilities during 9E.

It's very difficult for them to playtest or gauge those, as the mathematic complexity of options starts compounding significantly.

Not to mention the fact that maybe only a quarter of them are impactful.  I really enjoy their presence, but it's so boring seeing the same 3 used over and over again. 

[The Emperors Champion22]

28 minutes ago, UnkyHamHam said:

Not to mention the fact that maybe only a quarter of them are impactful.  I really enjoy their presence, but it's so boring seeing the same 3 used over and over again. 

See i like seeing the same thing over and over again, as long as its not cancer to play against/with. It lets you improve each time you play.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, UnkyHamHam said:

Not to mention the fact that maybe only a quarter of them are impactful.  I really enjoy their presence, but it's so boring seeing the same 3 used over and over again. 

Maybe if they had a primary trait list and a secondary list.

primaries make big differences, while the secondaries are a bit more toned down.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The two most popular for melee are Master Artisans and the one procs more hits on rolls of 6s.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Black Blow Fly

[UnkyHamHam]

6 hours ago, The Emperors Champion22 said:

See i like seeing the same thing over and over again, as long as its not cancer to play against/with. It lets you improve each time you play.

Fair enough. For the record I wasn't referring to people trait hopping, but more like that only 2-3 are competitive. So like 90% of players choosing from those 3.  I respect anyone who chooses based on flavor and sacrifices the obvious advantage of master artisans. Not every chapter are master artisans, but you'd think that based on the community. 

[Kallas]

Yeah, one of the big problems with the Successor Traits is that some are clearly more useful than others. +1 Ld is not an attractive trait, or a 3" aura of -1 Ld for enemies it's just not good; whereas +1 to Advance and Charge rolls is adding reliability to something you can build around; or Master Artisans which gives that extra security and reduces the need to expend CP on rerolls.

I would not be sad if the removed Successor Traits and just made all Chapter Tactics (and the variously named traits for other Factions) actually all interesting. CSM Legion Traits are all interesting, especially considering that some were utter garbage prior to their Codex (eg, Word Bearers) but now have some serious value plus the glow up of the related subfaction boons.

If a similar level of thought and consideration is put into the subfactions like in the CSM book, then yes please, removed the awkwardness of combinations of Successor Traits. Hell, 4th Ed (or was it 5th Ed?) Chapter Tactics, and Guard Regimental Doctrines, had the same problems we have now: some are good and get taken all the time, and some are crap and only used occassionally in highly casual games, so it's not like it's a new, competitive-focused phenomenon, it's happened before and will happen again if they maintain it.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Kallas

[CCE1981]

I remember that terrible system, you could take a second trait if you took a negative.  One of the positive traits was the same as a negative trait.  The only difference was who got to decide if the game went on one more turn first.

[Kallas]

It was definitely something 

Like adding more Heavy Support slots but losing Fast Attack slots? Oh noes, I guess I'll just have to make do without the units I wasn't planning to run in this list anyway! 

[Cpt_Reaper]

I'm of mixed feelings.

On one hand running Long Range Marksmen and Fearsome Aspect, despite the tactical disadvantage I have for the latter, allows me to truly play my Chapter on the table. I will always take the chance to mechanically represent my Chapter/Regiment/Warband/Kabal etc. I have always lamented the removal of the ye olde Traits system from 3rd/4th Edition, warts and all. I think not including a Warband Builder system in the latest Chaos dex was a missed opportunity. At the very least not having the Renegade Chapters in the book and just saying "use a Legion closest or just use Red Corsairs" was a failure.

On the other hand, the amount of things I lose out on as a Dark Angels Successor not running Inheritors is huge. Grim Resolve is not only a better combination of traits it unlocks Inner Circle and Jink for Deathwing and Ravenwing respectively.

I don't want them to be removed, but I know GW prefers to remove things rather than improve them.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

I'm of mixed feelings.

On one hand running Long Range Marksmen and Fearsome Aspect, despite the tactical disadvantage I have for the latter, allows me to truly play my Chapter on the table. I will always take the chance to mechanically represent my Chapter/Regiment/Warband/Kabal etc. I have always lamented the removal of the ye olde Traits system from 3rd/4th Edition, warts and all. I think not including a Warband Builder system in the latest Chaos dex was a missed opportunity. At the very least not having the Renegade Chapters in the book and just saying "use a Legion closest or just use Red Corsairs" was a failure.

On the other hand, the amount of things I lose out on as a Dark Angels Successor not running Inheritors is huge. Grim Resolve is not only a better combination of traits it unlocks Inner Circle and Jink for Deathwing and Ravenwing respectively.

I don't want them to be removed, but I know GW prefers to remove things rather than improve them.

Yeah that’s something that doesn’t make sense.

like from a lore standpoint my successor still suffers from black rage and red thirst so it makes no sense for a BA successor not to get those bonuses regardless.

Maybe there should be the gene trait, that’s powerful and a lesser generic trait.

 

[TheNewman]

On 9/5/2022 at 5:51 PM, UnkyHamHam said:

Fair enough. For the record I wasn't referring to people trait hopping, but more like that only 2-3 are competitive. So like 90% of players choosing from those 3.  I respect anyone who chooses based on flavor and sacrifices the obvious advantage of master artisans. Not every chapter are master artisans, but you'd think that based on the community. 

Personally I look at that as a failure of imagination on the part of the community.  I like taking Warded and Stalwart paired with a parent chapter like Iron Hands or Salamanders with good defensive psychic powers and strats, you can make a unit or two in critical positions vastly harder to remove than they have any right to be.

Admittedly my opinion on the matter might be skewed because I've had almost no success at all trying to get Marines of any flavor to work in melee.  

[The Emperors Champion22]

On 9/5/2022 at 5:51 PM, UnkyHamHam said:

Fair enough. For the record I wasn't referring to people trait hopping, but more like that only 2-3 are competitive. So like 90% of players choosing from those 3.  I respect anyone who chooses based on flavor and sacrifices the obvious advantage of master artisans. Not every chapter are master artisans, but you'd think that based on the community. 

Thats fair, but across every game people will always use the strongest available option to them, so as long as the options arent too strong i dont mind seeing them a lot. There are some chapter tactics that are so reliably good that you get so much value out of that it would be crazy not to take them unless you were doing a cheese build.

[Tokugawa]

For this 9th marine codex, you don't need to pair successor tactic(S) for competitive lists. You just need to pick 1 successor tactic which fit your combat style. Eg. need to fire big guns? artisan. want to make more deep strike charge and need the charge rolls more reliable? hungry. expect many opponent psykers? warded.

 

The other half, whirlwind, is almost mandatory. Don't need to make decisions about this half.

[BrainFireBob]

On 9/5/2022 at 7:54 AM, UnkyHamHam said:

Not to mention the fact that maybe only a quarter of them are impactful.  I really enjoy their presence, but it's so boring seeing the same 3 used over and over again. 

Same thing happened every time they put something like this. And when removed, we hear kvetching until they do it again

 

I think the worst offender in 4th was "trust your battle brothers"- gained an attack. 

 

Or Tank Hunting Havocs/Devs. Why run any other option?