Sword Brethren since AoC

[Prot]

Hey folks,

A pretty simple question as I am contemplating revisiting the Templars…. As the title suggests, I’m wondering if the AoC rules added any real traction to the Sword Brethren. They are actually some of my favourite models in the line and would love a real reason to try them again… if not one, even two squads? Or are Bladeguard just that much better still?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They are a solid unit imo. You can take the Uphold vow and they still benefit from cover. Give them a go.

[Blade of Sigismund]

AoC plus being able to  use light cover makes them durable, and for the points, all power swords is a steal. Ran two squads of 5 in my last game and they were devastating, doing 20  power sword attacks at str 6 (hellbrecht) and Ap4 (Doctrine).

There's also a massive rule of cool factor. I like running Hellbrecht with his 'marshall's househould'

[Prot]

10 hours ago, Blade of Sigismund said:

AoC plus being able to  use light cover makes them durable, and for the points, all power swords is a steal. Ran two squads of 5 in my last game and they were devastating, doing 20  power sword attacks at str 6 (hellbrecht) and Ap4 (Doctrine).

There's also a massive rule of cool factor. I like running Hellbrecht with his 'marshall's househould'

That does sound cool! And thematic as well.

So all Power Swords? No fists/claws just because the swords are free?

And did they run on foot or Impulsors? (Helbrecht takes 1 slot in an Impulsor, correct?)

 

I'd really like to run something like this.

[Karhedron]

13 minutes ago, Prot said:

So all Power Swords? No fists/claws just because the swords are free?

I would be tempted to throw a single Hammer in there to help deal with tough targets. No idea if that is optimum but I like a bit of flexibility in my units and this unit has something most other Primaris units lack as they have usually been mono-loadout thus far.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I would take a hammer and pair of claws along with the power swords.

[Medjugorje]

honestly - they never used to be that bad like the Assault squad in early 8th edition (where your enemy had more of them then you). 

But they are still not a good unit and AoC is something which made other units (already better then SW) even better. 

I think it depends on what games do you play. If you play fun games --> run them. I had a few very solid games with them 3x5 in Impulsor with MMelta.

And because they are still not really tough, use all of fight last mechanics you can get (Judiciar, Holy orb,....)

[Prot]

Well typically I play fairly competitive games, but lately I've been playing all over the spectrum. Honestly sometimes I like playing a bit of 'hard mode' and I don't always like stepping on the gas full throttle. 

That being said I personally take a lot of enjoyment in playing an army closer to its fluff or history. This isn't to say Bladeguard aren't a fluffy choice, but obviously for modeling purposes I am attracted to the Sword Brethren.

AoC definitely makes a lot of units better, but that's kind of why I bring up Bladeguard. There's a lot of debate on how anything with a storm shield basically is affected. It feels to me like the points saved on Sword Brethren, combined with the realized advantage of AoC at least there's perhaps a crack in the door for this squad?

As mentioned we see an advantage in still retaining coverage, and I'm trying to remember but they do have a strat of their  own right? (Sorry been a while sine I played BT!)

For load out we have someone citing success with 2 x 5 with all powerswords. Pretty cheap unit to deal with. 

We have a few votes for at least one multi-damage weapon.

Also just curious about delivery method. Impulsors? Foot slog? Repulsor (!)? or Reserves?

 

[Medjugorje]

At first - you need one hammer in it because often they have problems with their 1dmg which is often not enough. Their Strat is xploding 6s which is okay but honestly not good enough to compete with our way more important things: Sword of Judgment, CotF, Strength of conviction, devout push, Transhuman ph. and autowounds on 6s Stat.

[templargdt]

Sword bros seem like they need serious strat help to do anything, and lack obsec.  There are so many better units in the Elites slot.  Almost everyone is taking Uphold and not getting cover in a CC unit is a very minor thing to ignore. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There’s a strat that makes them obsec if you really need it. I believe they have a strat that allows them to change their vow. They are definitely viable and better than assault Intercessors any day of the week.

Edited September 24, 2022 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Medjugorje]

1 hour ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

There’s a strat that makes them obsec if you really need it. I believe they have a strat that allows them to change their vow. They are definitely viable and better than assault Intercessor any day of the week.

The strat for Obsec counts for all CORE units.

There is no strat to change their vow. Their special rule ignores the passion. However there is a litany which gives one unit an additional vow ( one you can choose) and if you put it on SB then they have 2 buffs and ignores the 2 passions.

 

Assault Intercessors are way cheaper and are in the troop slot - while you have to take another troop choice if you take SB. That makes them very bad in comparison.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You can run a patrol detachment which is quite popular this edition. I’d never run assault Intercessors - the Primaris Crusader squad is the better choice. I mentioned assault Intercessors because they are the only current power armor (not Gravis) melee unit I can think of for comparison besides BGV. I realize that the strat to make unit obsec is for core units, not just SB… which in my opinion makes assault Intercessors even less viable.

A five man SB squad with thunderhammer, lightning claws and three power swords clocks in at 137 points, while a five man assault Intercessor squad with a thunderhammer is 115 points… iOve chainswords vs AoC really struggle to get wounds through.

Edited September 24, 2022 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Medjugorje]

2 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

You can run a patrol detachment which is quite popular this edition. I’d never run assault Intercessors - the Primaris Crusader squad is the better choice. I mentioned assault Intercessors because they are the only current power armor (not Gravis) melee unit I can think of for comparison besides BGV. I realize that the strat to make unit obsec is for core units, not just SB… which in my opinion makes assault Intercessors even less viable.

A five man SB squad with thunderhammer, lightning claws and three power swords clocks in at 137 points, while a five man assault Intercessor squad with a thunderhammer is 115 points… iOve chainswords vs AoC really struggle to get wounds through.

the assault intercessor squad costs 95 +20 points for Fist of baltus and can fight twice. BUT:

The main problem in a patrole detachment ( and in general for whole Codex SM) that ELITE slot have too much other strong units. Everything elese in that slot is far stronger for its points (output + input). Terminators, BGVs, VVs, Aggressors with Flamer Strat, Redemptors, Characters ...

 

IMO you can play SB relative successful, but then you need 2 things. Judiciar (Aurelian Shroud and Oathkeeper can be helpful) iand 3 squads SB in 3 Impulsors with MM.

thats 891 points which have all the dmg you need ( a lot of attacks with high AP and Anti Tank) - then you can build the list around. Everything else I tested was crap. 

I hear often from another tournament gamer in my WA group (which live in another city) that he play one squad as COUNTER for his shooty lists. But that is something I dont play.

 

 

But honestly: Chosen in the SCM codex have the same statline as SB except they have 3 wounds instead. And CSM are much more related to close combat then loyal marines. And still you dont see them in strong tournament lists. I think GW have to (and in any time they will) give SB 3 wounds too. Marines are trash in tournaments although AoC and our SB already are on 40mm bases. And of all early success in some tournaments there was just one guy who played SB. And I think he had won not because he played SB but although he played them.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Medjugorje

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’ve never used them but looking at the points for the squad I mentioned I could drop some terminators to include them if I had time to build them.

[Blade of Sigismund]

8 hours ago, Prot said:

Well typically I play fairly competitive games, but lately I've been playing all over the spectrum. Honestly sometimes I like playing a bit of 'hard mode' and I don't always like stepping on the gas full throttle. 

That being said I personally take a lot of enjoyment in playing an army closer to its fluff or history. This isn't to say Bladeguard aren't a fluffy choice, but obviously for modeling purposes I am attracted to the Sword Brethren.

AoC definitely makes a lot of units better, but that's kind of why I bring up Bladeguard. There's a lot of debate on how anything with a storm shield basically is affected. It feels to me like the points saved on Sword Brethren, combined with the realized advantage of AoC at least there's perhaps a crack in the door for this squad?

As mentioned we see an advantage in still retaining coverage, and I'm trying to remember but they do have a strat of their  own right? (Sorry been a while sine I played BT!)

For load out we have someone citing success with 2 x 5 with all powerswords. Pretty cheap unit to deal with. 

We have a few votes for at least one multi-damage weapon.

Also just curious about delivery method. Impulsors? Foot slog? Repulsor (!)? or Reserves?

 

I ran mine mechanized in impulsors. I don't personally worry about hammers and claws; partially for esthetic reasons, and partially because keeping them cheap is what gives them so much value.

Yes, assault intercessors are slightly cheaper, but they have no ap against imperial forces. Sword Brethren actually kill what they hit.

If I'm facing something that needs more damage against it, I'll use my guns or hellbrecht.

[Blade of Sigismund]

12 minutes ago, Medjugorje said:

the assault intercessor squad costs 95 +20 points for Fist of baltus and can fight twice. BUT:

The main problem in a patrole detachment ( and in general for whole Codex SM) that ELITE slot have too much other strong units. Everything elese in that slot is far stronger for its points (output + input). Terminators, BGVs, VVs, Aggressors with Flamer Strat, Redemptors, Characters ...

 

IMO you can play SB relative successful, but then you need 2 things. Judiciar (Aurelian Shroud and Oathkeeper can be helpful) iand 3 squads SB in 3 Impulsors with MM.

thats 891 points which have all the dmg you need ( a lot of attacks with high AP and Anti Tank) - then you can build the list around. Everything else I tested was crap. 

I hear often from another tournament gamer in my WA group (which live in another city) that he play one squad as COUNTER for his shooty lists. But that is something I dont play.

 

 

But honestly: Chosen in the SCM codex have the same statline as SB except they have 3 wounds instead. And CSM are much more related to close combat then loyal marines. And still you dont see them in strong tournament lists. I think GW have to (and in any time they will) give SB 3 wounds too. Marines are trash in tournaments although AoC and our SB already are on 40mm bases. And of all early success in some tournaments there was just one guy who played SB. And I think he had won not because he played SB but although he played them.

Speaking to your point on elites, I've actually been testing some lists where I just bite the bullet and run a vanguard. I pay in cp, but eliminate the troop tax entirely. 

With Strength of Conviction losing obsec hasn't been too bad. It has allowed me to make lists that play to the armies' strengths and really maximize damage potential.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I used to run vanguard when I played Custodes. It has it’s benefits.

I can see not taking the claws but the hammer is too good to pass up imo.

[Blade of Sigismund]

Player choice. I run chainfist terminators in almost every list, so my Sword Brethren have been mainly troop killers.

[Medjugorje]

after my playtesting i think so too. I would always run them with Hammers. But sadly the hammer is unriable because we have no real buffs. 

This is another problem. expl. 6s is good but do not help the "good" weopons with -1 to hit. 

@Blade of Sigismund - how do your SB "kill" everything they touch? I can be effective when you kill smaller stuff like other small Elite units or troop choices. I dont think they have a chance against any real thread like Chaos Terminators, 5 BGVs,... even with buffs (which they have no easy access to). 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s only 1-2 hammers so I would never expect much from exploding 6s.

[Blade of Sigismund]

22 hours ago, Medjugorje said:

after my playtesting i think so too. I would always run them with Hammers. But sadly the hammer is unriable because we have no real buffs. 

This is another problem. expl. 6s is good but do not help the "good" weopons with -1 to hit. 

@Blade of Sigismund - how do your SB "kill" everything they touch? I can be effective when you kill smaller stuff like other small Elite units or troop choices. I dont think they have a chance against any real thread like Chaos Terminators, 5 BGVs,... even with buffs (which they have no easy access to). 

My quote was 'kill what they hit'.

Take these guys for what they do. They do 20 power sword attacks for 110 points. That's great for killing troops and medium infantry.

They are not however, the only thing in the list. If you are facing something they might struggle against, use something else: shooting, mortals, heavy assault, etc.

If you find you don't have the right tools to pick matchups, I think that's an issue with the list, not the unit.

 

[Karhedron]

8 hours ago, Blade of Sigismund said:

Take these guys for what they do. They do 20 power sword attacks for 110 points. That's great for killing troops and medium infantry.

This! They are not a power house but they hit hard for their points against the right targets.

[Medjugorje]

even then they have no "inbuild" rerolls and no other buffs. Their variance is too high. Its happens too often that they do not kill what they should do while other counterparts can do.

Incubi, Khorneberserker, Sanguards, Vanguard Vets KILL stuff because their average (for example against normal intercessors) is usually more then the 5 existiing models while SB kill 3.5 per average( means too often just one or two opponent modells). So mathematicly they do NOT kill them - even normal Intercessors are not dead.

[viktim]

13 hours ago, Blade of Sigismund said:

 

Take these guys for what they do. They do 20 power sword attacks for 110 points. That's great for killing troops and medium infantry.

 

Why 110 points? don't the swords cost 3 points anymore? And if so, where can I find the rule/faq?