Sword Brethren since AoC

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Aren't points updates free now? Check War Com?

[viktim]

My BattleScribe Shows them for 3ppm, online the Crusaders got. the free Upgrades

i think with free Power swords the are a viable Option 

Edited September 25, 2022 by viktim

[Toldavf]

I would skip lightning claws these days, they just aren't the weapon they used to be.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

In BattleScribe it’s 125 points for five Sword Brethren all armed with power swords. That’s a lot of value for the points… 20 attacks on the charge.

[Blade of Sigismund]

5 hours ago, Medjugorje said:

even then they have no "inbuild" rerolls and no other buffs. Their variance is too high. Its happens too often that they do not kill what they should do while other counterparts can do.

Incubi, Khorneberserker, Sanguards, Vanguard Vets KILL stuff because their average (for example against normal intercessors) is usually more then the 5 existiing models while SB kill 3.5 per average( means too often just one or two opponent modells). So mathematicly they do NOT kill them - even normal Intercessors are not dead.

Against marines it's 20a / 14 hits / 10 or so wounds average. If you're hitting rank and file, that's 4-5 meq down. The numbers get better with strat support, vows, or re-rolls.

Incubi, Khorne berserkers, and Sanguards are not options for BT. As they are not a possible choice, them being better is irrelevant for determining what BT option to take.

Vanguard veterans, if equipped with power sword, are equivalent to sword Brethren with the exception that they can't use primaris strats. If you equip them with other weapons, then you are paying a higher points cost for said privilege.

To me, that means that if you are going for minimum cost, they are functionally the same, and it comes down to player choice. To equip VV with more than SB, you are looking at anywhere from 8-15 pts more per model, and that's before jump packs. That puts this squad at roughly +30% over SB.

Finally, if your metric is that you require re-rolls to be relevant, BT have access to the best chaplains in the game. Adding one for support is a valid option.

[Medjugorje]

its 7,4 wounds means --> 3,7 dead on average which means that in most cases you dont kill them and often enough its far worst.

Our vows are not good enough to make them better ( we even calculated in assault doctrine). Autowounds make 8,9 wounds on average (still not 5 dead marines).

The point why VV are better is not just their movement - its their weapon choices AND how they can be buffed. Because get some buffs from characters and moving 12" is another level in the game. You have to move your models very optimal to receive the buffs you need against the units you want to attack  -  and good opponents can handle it much better. 

THe power sword is not as good as the weapon choices VV can have (although at the moment they are very expensive too)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

With the advent of LoV the lightning claw won’t be so viable, power sword will be better.

[Medjugorje]

I think already Sword are closer to claws after so many armies have the ability to not allow wound rerolls. But in many cases its just about a few special units and like you said.

We should compare the ability to kill small stuff very efficient - and thats a thing SB often not do well. 

[Medjugorje]

5 minutes ago, Medjugorje said:

I think already Sword are closer to claws after so many armies have the ability to not allow wound rerolls. But in many cases its just about a few special units and like you said.

We should compare the ability to kill small stuff very efficient - and thats a thing SB often not do well. 

and thats my big concern about them. It is a ELITE slot which takes the slot away from units which can kill more scary stuff and we already have better units that can fulfill that

 

And the point why I really suffer with our general rules is that other marines can do it much more efficent (although they have other -more often bigger- problems).

 

Ultramarines have access to reroll hits for normal assault intercessors which cost 105 points . With that they are even as efficent with their troop slot as we are in our ELITE slot.

(and very sadly they are much more efficent with the same squad in close combat).

 

So conclusion:

 

Sword Brethren have disadvanteges in

1. mobility 

- just normal movement without any other good support beside +2 to charge and reroll charges (which all armies have access to) and thats a big point if point 3 is also a weakness.

- Impulsors as transports are great if you have first round and deployed them very aggressive but thats often not a good idea with that huge output which exists in 40k (meaning if you have not first round the game is over already)

2. output

- theoretically there exists a lot of help to make them really good. But sadly they often have key problems if you look closer. Chaplains are characters which need bodies around them to be protected by opponent fast melee combats and overwhelming shooting. So characters can perform much better with units which have staying power (INPUT) like Terminators, Gravis, Dreadknoughts... and/or you dont have to commit them for sending them too close to the enemy lines when you buff faster units. Best excample here is Grimaldus which stays behind 2 Redemptors and a crusadersquad which protect him and buff the whole army around him with FnP and a squad of Plasma-Interceptors can use the 10"+3+d3 advance + 18" range from their weapons and dont have to commit. The fast opponents are no threat. So there is the only way to commit your whole Army if you want buffed SB.

3. input

- again they can have any buff other units can have too. FnP from chaplains/apos; -1dmg or icon of heinman. But comparing that to every other unit in our Elite slot shows that its always better to buff units which exploring much more. Transhuman for 1cp + 5up FNP and -1dmg for a BGV is so much better because the opponent wont kill that unit or have to put everyhing he have into that unit. There are 2 ways to play 9th editon --> to trade efficient (which Marines as a more costly ELITE army do not well) OR have units which have to perform more rounds and there we have the main problem: SB (even when they kill small stuff) are to ELITE to have success against cheap trading armies and are not tanky enough to hold markers efficient (at least there is always a unti in our codex which does that way better). GW do not price the "normal" MEQ unit well 

Another point why people always forget by compairing the SB vs BGV for example when they argumenting that SB are more efficient by killing Death Guard units or other units with -1 dmg is that even if you did some morre damage the outcome is often the fightback of those units KILL your entire SB squad and then they have free movement in their own round to move and charge your backfield (characters for example) which does not happen if your BGV squad di not  the same damage but still lives.

4. their place in list building.

- there are some SLOTS which can give a unit a really high elegibility to exist in strong lists although there better units to choose. There is A) HQ, TROOP, TRANSPORT slot which are often much more cost efficient because Battallion / Patrole dont cost CPs and you have those units anyway.(think about SB would be TROOP choices, you could play them instead of Intercessors without spending CP for obsec and the ELITE slot has still 6 units for you).

The other thing in listbuilding is their task what to do. And honestly we have so much units which can hold markers and cleaning small stuff. And even if SB deal better agaiinnnst armies with great access to -1 dmg OR no reroll wound abilities --> we have still weapons that can to that job much more better then our melee stuff like Eradicators or Dreadknouhgts

- lack of stratagems

- This is possibliy the most unimportant thing here but in general i am concerned that our supplmenent dont have access to real good output stratagems. Even exploding 6s i do not use that often as I use the autowounding 6s strat instead. But why i put this point´for discuss SB: They dont have any stratagem which allows units to have a task beside any statlines like Reivers can take turn your OBSEC ability off. Fight last is one of the strongest abilites for real close combat armies - the holy orb is very good on them but just for the offensive turn. If you are just a MEQ unit a strat which gives opponents "fight last" could turn SB into something which allows them to finally hit twice before they die - especially against small units it could be a game changer.

 

 

 

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I play a black tide list so there is that. I’m really loving the codex.

[Medjugorje]

1 hour ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I play a black tide list so there is that. I’m really loving the codex.

how do you run SB in that kind of list?

Like i said before, I know someone who plays SB in many lists as counter (especially in blacktide or shooty lists) and blacktide is still one of the stronger ways to play BT.

But that is the point. SB are not supposed to be good in blacktide lists imo ( at least I dont find a way to be honest)

Edited September 27, 2022 by Medjugorje

[Tokugawa]

SB is supposed as "chosen" equivalent of loyalists. It is in a 2021 codex. Chosen is in a 2022 codex and have 3W and 4A. Just a typical example of "power creep". 

[wict01]

I'm probably alone in this but planning on running the unit pure fluff, with all the weapon options (maul, axe, sword, claws and hammer). They are Squad Rolech for my upcoming crusade campaign with a friend, against his Iron Warriors. They are led by Champion of the Feast Alm Rolech, who has the thunder hammer which I have also made master-crafted after he managed to kill Ahriman in single combat as the last man standing in his unit against the Thousand Sons. 

I'm quite excited to get them on the board again now with AoC. Beautiful kit and I am desperate to find a way for them to work. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I recommend building a squad and start playtesting, experience is a great teacher.

[Mike8404]

If I had to choose between BGV and SB, I'd pick BGV, and I do.  My army is built around mechanized BGV's though, so I'm biased.  Our Impulsors are actually threatening too if built properly and used right so that adds further lethality to a BGV unit.

 

Honestly, SB aren't a unit I would ever really consider, unless I liked the models, especially when we can also take Comp Vets which have Primaris stats, the 'bodyguard' keyword, and are a lot more flexible for loadouts.  They may not have strats, but compared to SB they're superior.  I should add I'm not a competitive player, but I don't see why SB should be an option outside of fluff lists.

 

Also, Comp Vets are our Chosen.  Sword Bros are our 'zerkers or Rubric Marines.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Mike8404

[Medjugorje]

Comp Vets have no acess to autowounding on 6s and Transhuman AND the Rhino is not as good as an Impulsor. And they have +1 A.

 

Rhino can be cheaper and can transport 2x5 men.

btw: Very sad what AoW saying about BT and MArines in general (but something I said before SO MANY TIMES.

 

 

 

[Tokugawa]

AoW rating is based on : expectations of top skilled player(e.g. themselves)'s performance with said faction in big events. We could frequently see BT entered top4 of GT level events, but they are obviously not "hot meta choice" too.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

A BT player won top prize at the SN battle reports event just last weekend.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I should pinch myself… lol 

[Medjugorje]

15 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

AoW rating is based on : expectations of top skilled player(e.g. themselves)'s performance with said faction in big events. We could frequently see BT entered top4 of GT level events, but they are obviously not "hot meta choice" too.

they play every faction and especially Jack and John Lennon playing BT a lot. And the german WTC team think the same way. 

 

Although I could imagine that weaker players have more success because as better as players are the more Speed is key - the lower the experience and level of the two players (as long as they are close together)  the defensive stats are more important.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

When last time Jack Harpster or John Lennon fielded BT at a competitive event ?

[Medjugorje]

every game they play against each other on their channel is like playing on top table on great events. And they will test and play more often then we can see on their channel. 

 

But with new dataslate which is very close everything will change again.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m more interested to see how they fared at a competitive event… partly to see if they have the confidence, plus they play each other so much it’s more like playing the other player versus playing against the opposing faction.

[Medjugorje]

nontheless - rumors say that today is Data-Slate day.  And maybe we see a few point drops ( I have 30 SB and Repulsors + Gladiators + Stormspeeders which want to see the table)

[Emperor Ming]

+1 W +1A is probably what is needed on SB

Can't be many models on 40mm bases with such low stats

They could easily do that on a dataslate