DC gravis needs to be a thing

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

If brothers fall or begin to fall just before battle it doesn’t make sense that they don’t seem to fall if they wear gravis armor.

the excuse for not sending brothers in the DC into battle in TDA makes sense, but gravis is ancient or rare, so it doesn’t make sense that I can’t have DC aggressors, or DC inceptors.

[Jolemai]

Then make up a homebrew datasheet for them 

[Majkhel]

To be honest, each and every suit of any kind of power armor used to be a treasured thing. The advent of Primaris and the notion that every marine owns or can be issued with several types of armor lessens this to a degree. 

I would still imagine that Chapter's Armoury would keep the biggest stock of regular/Tacticus power armor because they're the most often deployed variants. For that reason also a number of repair parts or full spare suits would be greater and any loss would have lesser impact on the Chapter's fighting capabilities. Other variants on the other hand being used for more specific tasks and less often would be kept in smaller quantities. And so any losses in those would be more impactful. 

From this logistical point of view it has merit that a fallen brother is issued with the most common and relatively easy to replace gear. It's still being adorned to show respect, but the practicality is that DC members are expected to die (and die horribly). And their gear, if at all recovered, would be more often than not in a state that probably makes any Techmarine roll into a ball and sob quietly in a corner.

Still, there was a mechanic in 3rd edition where you would roll for each squad fielded and on a roll of 4+ a model of your choice would fall to the BR and join Death Company. There was a requirement that you are able to represent each marine with an appropriate model. That model actually didn't have a specific armor type defined (granted there were only 3 types in those days) only a Save characteristic.

I was actually thinking of expanding my DC units with an odd armor variant here and there. I think that as long as I keep their bases in the same size and weapon options roughly equivalent, any opponent would accept them.

[Jolemai]

There's no reason they shouldn't. I believe @Xenith has a Sanguinary Guard DC knocking around somewhere.

[Jolemai]

Anyway, from the fluff a Marine will fall on the eve of battle. They are taken away an inducted into the Death Company, so there is time to "change" out of their specialist gear and into their old PA. Same for Bikes, Tank crews, etc

With the exception of the odd novel, squads and squads of units don't fall so there wouldn't be a specialist DC unit running around (nor are they put in stasis until a whole unit could be formed) and as we aren't Deathwatch, GW don't want BA to mix models like that.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Jolemai said:

Anyway, from the fluff a Marine will fall on the eve of battle. They are taken away an inducted into the Death Company, so there is time to "change" out of their specialist gear and into their old PA. Same for Bikes, Tank crews, etc

With the exception of the odd novel, squads and squads of units don't fall so there wouldn't be a specialist DC unit running around (nor are they put in stasis until a whole unit could be formed) and as we aren't Deathwatch, GW don't want BA to mix models like that.

Most brothers don’t have/use power weapons, or specialized pistols, but we’ve had FB DC given access to special pistols and melee weapons, so gravis armored DC  makes just as much sense.

[Majkhel]

DC are shock troops. I would still argue that it make a lot of sense from the cost-to-effect point of view that they are given weapons with which they can spend their fury to the utmost.

Look at the tactical application - DC are being used against the most dire of foes. You don't deploy them to places where tactical or assault squads can do the job. Practicality of prosecuting a war requires that you use the right tool for the job. DC are not expected to survive so protecting them is less important than the destruction they are supposed to unleash. They still get power armor as this also increases their combat prowess with strength and speed enhancement. 

[Helias_Tancred]

8 hours ago, Jolemai said:

Then make up a homebrew datasheet for them 

You know, this is something that always surprised me about its lack of presence in Warhammer 40k!

It seems extremely rare that people either play older editions that were their favorite, or use house rules to address issues in the edition or current edition they play? I play with a set group of friends, so this is something we've done in the past. I understand you can't really do this if you tend to play random people in game stores, but for those of us who play with a set group it's definitely feasible.  My other hobby is D&D. I've been an avid D&D player off and on since 1982! Myself and my group of friends decided long ago our favorite edition was the first, AD&D, yep the one that came about starting in 1978 with all the hardbook covers that scared parents into thinking it was a satanic thing lol. We play a version thats been unsupported and out of print for 30 years. I have a time tested set of house rules for my campaign, etc. Anyways it always struck me as odd that 40k players always had a similar opportunity but its rarely taken in the hobby.

 

[Helias_Tancred]

5 hours ago, Jolemai said:

Anyway, from the fluff a Marine will fall on the eve of battle. They are taken away an inducted into the Death Company, so there is time to "change" out of their specialist gear and into their old PA. Same for Bikes, Tank crews, etc ....

That's always been my view on it as to why Death Company are always in their power armor, especially considering terminator armored DC, and now with primaris, gravis armor since I'm guessing its a bit more special and in smaller quantities?

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Eilio Tiberius

[Leonaides]

Added to the fact that their power armour is 'their' armour, while terminator armour is a chapter reluctant that they are 'allowed' to wear sometimes. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Eilio Tiberius said:

That's always been my view on it as to why Death Company are always in their power armor, especially considering terminator armored DC, and now with primaris, gravis armor since I'm guessing its a bit more special and in smaller quantities?

 

I’ve only read a very small number of books including primaris, but as I understand it gravis armor isn’t anything particularly special, and there’s plenty sets of armor to cover all of the fire support elements of a chapter as necessary.

between aggressors, inceptors, and HIs there seems like plenty of chance to have gravis armored brothers fall.

 

maybe in 10th you can mix and match armor types and weapons per armor type in DC.

[Sugarlessllama]

18 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

between aggressors, inceptors, and HIs there seems like plenty of chance to have gravis armored brothers fall.

While this is true, there is a difference between a brother falling to the Black Rage while wearing gravis armor, and leaving them equipped with gravis armor. I would agree with mejkhel and jolemai: it is likely the chapter would re-equip any astartes that falls to the rage rather than leave them equipped with gear that would be too hard to replace. If they have the ability to re-paint a set of armor, I would guess they would have the ability to re-equip the marine in question. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 10/1/2022 at 1:12 PM, Sugarlessllama said:

While this is true, there is a difference between a brother falling to the Black Rage while wearing gravis armor, and leaving them equipped with gravis armor. I would agree with mejkhel and jolemai: it is likely the chapter would re-equip any astartes that falls to the rage rather than leave them equipped with gear that would be too hard to replace. If they have the ability to re-paint a set of armor, I would guess they would have the ability to re-equip the marine in question. 

Lot easier to keep a couple gallons of paint and a spray gun on hand than a whole extra suit of armor.

darkness in the blood highlights how long it takes for an astartes to don their armor even when in a hurry. It would take quite a while to doff one set of armor and don another set.

Again there’s nothing special about gravis armor just like there’s nothing special about power swords or hand flamers.

It makes no sense to say they wouldn’t allow a marine who falls to wear gravis armor, but then say they’ll allow them to carry a powersword or a plasma pistol or a thunder hammer into battle. Jumppacks seem at least as difficult to replace as gravis armor but DC have been flying into battle for millennia.

[Arkangilos]

On 10/2/2022 at 5:52 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Lot easier to keep a couple gallons of paint and a spray gun on hand than a whole extra suit of armor.

darkness in the blood highlights how long it takes for an astartes to don their armor even when in a hurry. It would take quite a while to doff one set of armor and don another set.

Again there’s nothing special about gravis armor just like there’s nothing special about power swords or hand flamers.

It makes no sense to say they wouldn’t allow a marine who falls to wear gravis armor, but then say they’ll allow them to carry a powersword or a plasma pistol or a thunder hammer into battle. Jumppacks seem at least as difficult to replace as gravis armor but DC have been flying into battle for millennia.

Is Gravis armor standard issue or mission issued? 
It is my understanding that standard PA is standard issued and everyone gets it and keeps it all the time, where as Gravis and other specialized armor is reserved for specific tasks.  
 

It is like MOPP gear verses standard gear. Everyone has standard gear, but MOPP gear is issued on a per mission basis. 
 

Or for those of us who were in the Guard, we all had standard body armor, but were rotated through riot control and when things got sticky we would get issued riot gear for specific missions. It wasn’t a “trade your normal armor out for this stuff” it was a “bring your gear, we will issue you extra stuff when the mission requires it”.

 

so DC marines kept their standard armor and were just repainted, where as had they not fallen they’d just have been issued *for the mission* Gravis armor.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Arkangilos

[Majkhel]

Interesting point!
Considering how Gravis is described, it's just a variant of the mk.X. Potentially there might even not be any full suits of Gravis armor only upgrade parts to be attached to the modular frame of the Tacticus.

[Xenith]

On 9/30/2022 at 1:10 PM, Majkhel said:

There was a requirement that you are able to represent each marine with an appropriate model. That model actually didn't have a specific armor type defined (granted there were only 3 types in those days) only a Save characteristic.

 

Even then it was with a death company model which was assumed to be in power armour, from the 3+ save. It wasn't intil the rules lawyers argued that models didnt have power armour as they didn't have it listed in their wargear that GW started listing it. 

 

Personally I don't see why a heavy weapons platform type of armour is appropriate for DC. There are no assault-type versions of Gravis, just ones with lots of guns, which is the antithesis of what the DC are and how they operate. 

 

Even Terminator armoured DC is a once in a blue-moon thing for when the whole army is deployed then suddenly flips out and has no time to change their wargear - otherwise Chaplains observe all brothers "on the eve of battle" as they chant the Moripatris, and decide who should be taken into the Death Company - at which point there's plenty of time to don the appropriate armour. 

 

On 9/30/2022 at 1:32 PM, Jolemai said:

There's no reason they shouldn't. I believe @Xenith has a Sanguinary Guard DC knocking around somewhere.

 

Even my SG Death Company has returned their Artificer Armour to the Chapter's vaults and has just retained the Death Mask. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 11/1/2022 at 11:05 PM, Arkangilos said:

Is Gravis armor standard issue or mission issued? 
It is my understanding that standard PA is standard issued and everyone gets it and keeps it all the time, where as Gravis and other specialized armor is reserved for specific tasks.  
 

It is like MOPP gear verses standard gear. Everyone has standard gear, but MOPP gear is issued on a per mission basis. 
 

Or for those of us who were in the Guard, we all had standard body armor, but were rotated through riot control and when things got sticky we would get issued riot gear for specific missions. It wasn’t a “trade your normal armor out for this stuff” it was a “bring your gear, we will issue you extra stuff when the mission requires it”.

 

so DC marines kept their standard armor and were just repainted, where as had they not fallen they’d just have been issued *for the mission* Gravis armor.

Brothers are often inducted into the DC just before a battle.

i have no clue where I read but I recall a brother in a T-hawk or something being removed from their squad by the chaplain.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 11/2/2022 at 4:36 AM, Xenith said:

 

Even then it was with a death company model which was assumed to be in power armour, from the 3+ save. It wasn't intil the rules lawyers argued that models didnt have power armour as they didn't have it listed in their wargear that GW started listing it. 

 

Personally I don't see why a heavy weapons platform type of armour is appropriate for DC. There are no assault-type versions of Gravis, just ones with lots of guns, which is the antithesis of what the DC are and how they operate. 

 

Even Terminator armoured DC is a once in a blue-moon thing for when the whole army is deployed then suddenly flips out and has no time to change their wargear - otherwise Chaplains observe all brothers "on the eve of battle" as they chant the Moripatris, and decide who should be taken into the Death Company - at which point there's plenty of time to don the appropriate armour. 

 

 

Even my SG Death Company has returned their Artificer Armour to the Chapter's vaults and has just retained the Death Mask. 

…aggressors…sure they can have a decent bit of firepower, but it’s all close range firepower, and then there’s the double powerfist thing…something found in a picture of the 3rd edition supplement of DC.

 

all of that is fairly irrelevant because as of today at the end of 9th edition, gravis armor weapon options are primarily assault or rapid fire weapons. The only heavy options they have are also available (or essentially) to marines with lighter armor options.

 

we can have intercessors armed only with bolt rifles of any variant…including long range DMRs as DC

Edited December 21, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think it’s also worth noting there’s nothing in the supplement preventing us from taking either gravis captain as a DC captain.