Speculative Discussion El'Jonson rumoured to return: what do you expect will happen?

[sarabando]

reports of a huge brutal warrior leading a legion of black clad astartes massacring entire planets.  Bobby G is sure its abaddon starting a new black crusade and mobilises a huge crusade to meet them in battle. They race through the gauntlet to be greeted by the newly reformed 1st legion, lead by a very very VERY angry Lion. 

[Orange Knight]

If things were stable and mankind was not besieged then yes, it would be a good time to challenge the orthodoxy.

Guilliman has addressed that he has plans to make changes if mankind's safety was secured. The galaxy itself is being ripped apart, and Daemons stalk the shadows. Now is not the time to break apart the institutions that guard against these threats, corrupt and terrible as they are.

[Scribe]

8 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

If things were stable and mankind was not besieged then yes, it would be a good time to challenge the orthodoxy.

Guilliman has addressed that he has plans to make changes if mankind's safety was secured. The galaxy itself is being ripped apart, and Daemons stalk the shadows. Now is not the time to break apart the institutions that guard against these threats, corrupt and terrible as they are.

Yes, sacrificing morals, truth, for the sake of the current need.

Exactly how we got the Heresy. 

I just hope when Haley hamfists the Emperor back into 40K, it comes at horrible realization that the God Emperor is not what the Emperor was, and that he's quite insane after fragmenting his mind over 10K years.

But I doubt it.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I just don't see Jonson being an idealist trying to restore the Imperial Truth or whatever.

He knew the Imperial Truth was false even back in the Great Crusade. The 1st Legion's primary job was to make things that obviously proved the Imperial Truth false disappear, so that others wouldn't see it and it was swept under the rug.

So he'd probably just roll with it, especially given he would have some very immediate issues to address with regards to Luther, Marbas, etc.

[Orange Knight]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

Yes, sacrificing morals, truth, for the sake of the current need.

 

Perhaps.

The Imperium is a brutal, squalid empire. Complaining about that aspect of the Imperium is as wasteful as pointing out that water is wet.

What makes the 40k setting so interesting is that this evil empire is all that stands between humanity and it's annihilation, because the 40k universe is even more terrible.

There are aliens who want to torture you so they can feed off your pain.

There are others that want to consume the entire galaxy.

There is a literal God that wants to add your skull to his throne. It doesn't matter where the blood flows from, as long as it flows.

 

No one is saying the Imperium is good, and it shouldn't be held to our standards of morality because it does not exist in our world.

It's the necessary evil needed to keep humanity going. And indeed there are degrees of evil.

 

So, the Lion would be the worst possible individual if, in all his great intellectual capacity, he decided to condemn humanity to extinction because the squalid existence it finds itself in is not to the original design. People's lives can't be improved if those people are all dead.

[Scribe]

49 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Perhaps.

The Imperium is a brutal, squalid empire. Complaining about that aspect of the Imperium is as wasteful as pointing out that water is wet.

What makes the 40k setting so interesting is that this evil empire is all that stands between humanity and it's annihilation, because the 40k universe is even more terrible.

Dont get me wrong. I'm not complaining that the Imperium is bad. I'm saying that the lore should match it. Rob should not have been accepted by all, and it should have lead to a wider schism of the Imperium. Thats what makes sense.

I cut the quote here, because whats more terrible?

An Alien 'Other' that wants to use you for its own ends, or your own 'people' who will turn you into this because you dissent?

I've said it before, and I believe it still to be true. The Imperium is the most horrific faction of the setting, its in fact the point.

Once that changes? Once the Imperium is no longer a dystopian, dysfunctional hateful ignorant hopeless mess?

Its simply no longer 40K.

[Special Officer Doofy]

8 hours ago, Skywrath said:

Is that so? I distinctly recall Horus making plans to keep Dark Angels and the Lion specifically busy during the events of the HH, so he wouldn't have to contend with him. If that doesn't imply fear, I don't know what does.

No, that's not fear. That's strategy. I'm not afraid of heights, but I know if I fall from one I can die. Horus did what he could to try and win the heresy. The dropsite massacre wasn't about being scared of the Salamanders, Iron Hands and Raven Guard, it was about taking out a bulk of three loyalist Legions early on and trying to win a civil war with less resources. Let's not turn this into a my dad can beat up your dad debate like primarch talk always does.

[Cpt_Reaper]

As a Dark Angels fan...I don't think I want The Lion to come back. It won't be a case of his return being liked by some and disliked by others, it will be a case of [Everyone hated that]. Sure, we know it's a meme (and a tired, played out and frankly unfunny one at that), but I fully expect him to be written as some sort of secret traitor all along. Not just "the Fallen were right" but on a whole other level.

Honestly, we don't need another Primarch. We don't need Guilliman, but he's here now. Don't upset the fans of the other Primarchs, put that effort into making Guilliman the best character he can be and then put the effort of another into Dante.

[Slave to Darkness]

1 hour ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 Let's not turn this into a my dad can beat up your dad debate like primarch talk always does.

Aye, we all know Russ is best boy. 

[Scribe]

7 minutes ago, Slave to Darkness said:

Aye, we all know Russ is best boy. 

He crawled. ;)

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

As a Dark Angels fan...I don't think I want The Lion to come back. It won't be a case of his return being liked by some and disliked by others, it will be a case of [Everyone hated that]. Sure, we know it's a meme (and a tired, played out and frankly unfunny one at that), but I fully expect him to be written as some sort of secret traitor all along. Not just "the Fallen were right" but on a whole other level.

Doubt they would make the Lion a secret traitor, but Dark Angels stories definitely lean WAY too far into the whole "look how bad they are while keeping their secrets" nonsense. Hell, they even had the Dark Angels send Tau into an Unforgiven fortress monastery in a recent book.

Stuff like that makes me very worried about the Lion's return.

[MegaVolt87]

Ideally Lion will just be disgusted with the Imperium and just leave RG to it while going in a xenocide. So basically what he was doing pre HH plus settling the housekeeping with escaped Luther. Beat down Magnus for bullying the SW or something. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s hard to say how they will spin if Lionel is brought back. He’s had such a long nap I see him being refreshed and a true son of the Emperor. To me it’s exciting if we get another loyalist Primarch back again.

[spessmarine]

7 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Let's not turn this into a my space dad can beat up your space dad debate like primarch talk always does.

[Skywrath]

Stat wise what do we expect the Lion to have on the tabletop, as well as ability wise? Yes, I know it's too early to speculate, but for fun. 

 

Here's my prediction:

M6, WS2, BS2, S6, T6, W9, A7, Ld10, 2+ sv, 3++ (or 4++ with the first instance of damage being 0). Points cost: 400-500ish.

 

Weapons:

Fusil Acteneus (however you spell that), Pistol 1, - S8, -3, 3D damage, beam weapon like the Lantern?

Lion's Sword - +4S, -4AP, 3D with 6's doing (an unspecified amount of mortals, probably DD3)

 

Abilities:

Lion's Choler - pretty much a copy paste from HH - for every wound he loses gain +1 attack up to a maximum of 2(3) attacks.

Primarch of the Dark Angels: Nominate on Dark Angel unit (non core) for full re-rolls to hit.  Re-roll 1's to hit and 1's to wound in an 6" aura.

The Protector: 3++ invuln or 4++ invuln with first instance of damage being 0. Inner Circle keyword. 

WL Traits: 2 from the Dark Angel one - Calibanite Knight (wounds on 2's) , and -1 damage perhaps (Inexorable)?

<Another new ability here>

Edited October 6, 2022 by Skywrath

[Emperor Ming]

Dad says I should have the sword 

[Captain Idaho]

In my view, GW releasing a new Primarch, notably the Lion, would be a massive show and tell whether they care and are competent enough to handle the background material respectfully or whether they regard it as a mere plaything to increase the share price. (The company as a core, not just the upper brass...)

What I mean by this is the division within the Imperium for Heresy should be rife. The deposed High Lords should be plotting and scheming. Primaris should have upset everyone as if they were the Chapter Master of the Flesh Tearers as a rule, rather than the exception.

Any returning Lion would be outraged by Guilliman's meddling in the Astartes project set by the Emperor, whom he was always loyal to first and foremost.

There absolutely should be whispers of civil war and localised flashpoints between opposing philosophies. Primaris (and their Firstborn allies) SHOULD be set opposing Firstborn renegades.

If GW hand waves acceptance AGAIN with the Lion's return, then it shows all the respect for the setting has been disregarded in favour of "new toys at all costs!"

****

Now having said what I said above, GW would actually positively grow the setting if they did set up a Lion vs Guilliman in a philosophical struggle. They don't need open conflict of course, but more like rival power struggles.

The player base get to have their cake and eat it too - want Primaris? Embrace it! Build an entire Company just like old days! Mix them into your "Guilliman" Chapter of Ultramarines with Firstborn if needed.

Want Firstborn Renegades affiliated with Gabriel Seth and the Lion? Or themed historical 40K engagements? Take Codex Firstborn Ultramarines who splintered away from Guilliman.

2 cleaner Codex books potentially, with the prospect of freely mixing them together if you use the Keyword system, with perhaps all sorts of balance aspects added.

You can release new kits as needed for both and EVERYONE would be happy. The background material is tied up nicely too.

[WrathOfTheLion]

29 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

You can release new kits as needed for both and EVERYONE would be happy. The background material is tied up nicely too.

Everyone except the Dark Angel players? Nobody playing Dark Angels wants to be the butt end of yet even more 'DA are Traitors' for this kind of stuff.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

Just now, WrathOfTheLion said:

Everyone except the Dark Angel players? Nobody playing Dark Angels wants to be the butt end of yet even more 'DA are Traitors' for this kind of stuff.

But but the meme... :(... Its tiresome as much as the primaris hate.

[phandaal]

3 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Everyone except the Dark Angel players? Nobody playing Dark Angels wants to be the butt end of yet even more 'DA are Traitors' for this kind of stuff.

Yep. Hard pass on that.

All Guilliman would have to say if the Lion had a problem is "go talk to Pops, he said it was fine."

The Lion goes to commune with the Dad-Emperor, Papa says "yeah," conflict over.

[Bryan Blaire]

The Lion doesn’t need to bring more schism - the DA have shown to be accepting the Primaris based on the latest I had been reading - he could be set to going into the Imperium Nihilis and helping out there, working to ensure a more secure set of paths to the rest of the Imperium, reinforcing worlds and generally assisting in mitigating the degradation/falling of worlds that should be happening there.  They can even do a “fighting through to Baal” to meet up with whatever Dante has going on out from there for a “Angels of Death Redux” - a meeting between the Lion and the Sanguinor (or a Dante inhabiting Sanguinor/spirit of Sanguinius) might be interesting.

It can still be an interesting story, even while the Imperium is still ultimately doomed, without the additional internal strife others have suggested - the Imperium very much still has problems that would have to be overcome to actually have a chance - they already have plenty of internal strife.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Bryan Blaire

[Orange Knight]

The Emperor doesn't care if someone meddles with the Astartes to improve them. He let Corax do it without any push-back, after all.

He is pragmatic, and wants results. The same is true of the Lion.

 

Guilliman is a patrician with a shrewd political mind. I would like to see a Primarch who is a lot less... gentle with the people who irk him. I can imagine the Lion cutting his way through officials that get in the way.

In one scene of the Dark Imperium novel, some planetary lords are being coy with Guilliman in regards to unifying their planets under the umbrella of Ultramar. Understandable, as they could potentially lose their power, but short sighted in the grand scheme of things. Guilliman shows restraint as he debates with them (before ultimately overruling them).

How would the Lion conduct himself in the same situation?

 

Edit:

Also, the Lion could surprise us all. He might wake up, meet with Roboute, and then blurt out that he always knew the Emperor was a divine being and hiding that fact was some plan that has ultimately not planned out. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Orange Knight

[Scribe]

2 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Everyone except the Dark Angel players? Nobody playing Dark Angels wants to be the butt end of yet even more 'DA are Traitors' for this kind of stuff.

That won't change regardless. The Fallen and the DA behavior especially after, is all that's needed.

3 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The Emperor doesn't care if someone meddles with the Astartes to improve them. He let Corax do it without any push-back, after all.

And before a horrifically poor retcon how did that go?

[Emperor Ming]

Yep, any returning Primarch will most likely get a chat with the Emperor to bring them in line with how things are

Look son/tool/number, Ive just been to the warp to tell the chaos gods I'm going to kill them, so shut up and do what your told.... something like that, but in a more mystical and terrifying fashion

[Bryan Blaire]

I’d be more interested in the potential internal conflict in the Dark Angels that the Lion’s return and his edicts he could issue afterward might cause than what he’d do to engender additional strife in the rest of the Imperium.  He was the least tolerant of dissent among his Marines, and how would he interact with the larger group of Unforgiven, etc.  What does he do with the revelation that it was the DA that caused the loss of their own home world would also be an interesting question to see answered by the Lion’s return.

It will be more telling in how they handle the small and internal to the Dark Angels and their hidden and questionable war/shame cover up questions than in what they use the Lion’s return to do in the overall setting.