Speculative Discussion El'Jonson rumoured to return: what do you expect will happen?

[Orange Knight]

One point you make is that there are certain events that transpire in the official 40k canon. That is true.

You also argue and conclude that said events are bad. Your stance in the argument is unmoving.

To what "realistic" end do you argue the point so vehemently? And I'm honestly wishing to understand so a middle ground can be reached.

[DesuVult]

29 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Why have you moved on from reading Haley, exactly?

"Devastation of Baal", "The Great Work" and "Flesh and Steel: are all fantastic novels. Flesh and Steep in particular is extremely grim-dark and horrific, and has nothing to do with the main meta-plot. Easily one of the better recent novels.

Again, you dislike the direction of the main plot, evidently. Reasonable position, but you are arguing to make your viewpoint an objective fact. It is not.

Perhaps it's time to agree to disagree? You have the freedom to ignore any and all story elements in 40k. There's even a 30k game in plastic now.

The Great Work is down right shockingly good and rehabilitated some lore decisions I feel.

[Slave to Darkness]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

ADB, Wraight, French, are my holy trinity and its not close after that personally.

Pffft... Ian Watson, Bill King and ADB. 

[Scribe]

21 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

One point you make is that there are certain events that transpire in the official 40k canon. That is true.

You also argue and conclude that said events are bad. Your stance in the argument is unmoving.

To what "realistic" end do you argue the point so vehemently? And I'm honestly wishing to understand so a middle ground can be reached.

To achieve common understanding. I honestly mean that.

 

I love 40K, as much as someone can 'love' a loosely defined combination of various media formats, sometimes contradictory, often nonsensical, juvenile, or contrived. I love its British roots, I love the stew of culture, media, tropes, satire, and borrowed inspiration that was hammered into a semblance of something, as we entered the 2000's. I love that its as epic as Star Wars, or Star Trek, if not dramatically more so, but it is decidedly pessimistic, and utterly hopeless. I love that as the 9th Edition Necron codex states.

 

"... amidst the flames and madness of the galaxy's death throes..." right there, center page 1.

 

What other setting is so pointedly obvious, and yet the protagonists, the hero's and villains, persist? To quote a Canadian band, the characters, our characters if we choose, can continue to "kick at the darkness, 'til it bleeds daylight."

 

I love that every faction is flawed. That every faction is screwed. I love the premise, that one man was born, decided he needed to take it upon himself to save the species, and over 10's of thousands of years, he plotted, manipulated, and ultimately stumbled, damning the species through his own arrogance. I love that the setting obviously has its Christianity sign posts, but that the religion was for decades of lore (and I still hate to this day that it was forced back in) irrelevant, because well.... I love that its simply accepted fact by those in the know, that when we die, our soul is consumed by the powers of the Warp. There is no God of Peace and Solace here hell is real and the Gods hate us, and yet I love that the setting has a default state of inclusivity, your race is meaningless, your sex is meaningless, and what the characters do, is what defines them!

 

We have (yes, still have) a setting in which any story can be told, and I feel the psychological story of these factions, is part of it. The scope is SO VAST, and as is noted here, and in the 'Story vs Setting' thread, we can happily go on our merry way, head canon here, fan fiction there, develop our own little corner of the galaxy as it dies, or play in 30K, or anywhere in between. If someone wants to argue GW is or was limited in the scope of what story they could tell, what models they could push with a 'static' setting, simply prove it to me, make the argument, because I dont see it.

 

Sadly, I feel that scope, that size of the setting is decreasing. The metaplot is about Rob now, and his adventures. Its shrinking the setting when it simply didnt need to happen. Yes, we had stories before about named Characters, but we also had the Soul Hunter series, and what a fantastic story of a bunch of cowards and backstabbers we had there? We had Lord's of Silence, or the Spears of the Emperor, all setting EXPANSION.

 

When its about Rob coming back, Rob working with Cawl on Primaris, Primaris and Rob going out and saving the day, Rob showing up and helping Dante, Rob being a conduit for the Emperor waking up...that is when I have a problem.

 

I love the setting, because it is dark. I love that it is grim, comically so. I love that the humour is dark, that the comic relief of the setting is variously a priesthood that factually thinks it needs to revere a machine, for it to function, an intelligent type of fungus that trades in teeth, and believes in all its heart that might makes right and just wants to brawl, or killer robots which are various shades of senile, suffering from dementia, or full on insanity.

There was a short story, looks like it came in the box set, when the new Eldrad vs Death Watch box came out and it just perfectly gets it.

 

Quote

 

"If you slay me, Sir Knight," he said, his High Gothic perfectly enunciated, "the fates shall align to bless our mutual foes."

"Trust not the Eldar," said Artemis, his words thick with hatred.

"We are the sons of Death, you and I," said the Aeldari. "We bring oblivion, in order to deny Chaos. We cannot afford to thwart one another when the greater enemy stands on the cusp of victory."

The gilded finger bones lining the edge of the creature's cloak gleamed in the harsh light as crystal statues glowed bright all around. Artemis narrowed his eyes; a similar raiment was worn by the Chaplains of his own Mortifactors Chapter in their sepulchral celebrations. Strangely, he could not sense duplicity in this one.

"Walk away," said the Harlequin, "and a dire blow shall fall upon the Archenemy." Artemis recoiled at the term as the Aeldari spoke on. "Is your distrust so deep you would rather kill me now than spare the doom of a trillion human souls?" There was disbelief under his tone, and something else. Despair, perhaps.

"Yes," said Artemis, pulling the trigger to end the creature's life.

 

 

It is not because the grim darkness is 'like so edgy man lol' but because despite that pitch black darkness, the characters in our stories, continue to fight. That the war is lost, is irrelevant. The war is lost for all of them, except maybe the Orks. Imperium will be consumed or fail, Chaos is damned regardless, slaves to darkness, the lost and the damned. Necrons are insane, will never recover their prior selves. Eldar are a dead race, not only because of birth rates or some such nonsense, but because life now is one of war, and their young get lost on the Path. Dark Eldar? Well they are damned already, they know it, and once the Web Way cracks, its lights out. Nids? Eat themselves out existence. Daemons? Pretty much the same, and on and on. "... amidst the flames and madness of the galaxy's death throes..."

 

And yet...

 

We have nobility in characters like Rob, like Dante. We have novels that capture the concept of duty, so well, that its a gut punch to me every time I read Valdor. The setting is dark, and its unique! The issue is not that characters, individuals, try and make a difference for the better. The issue is that there is no other setting where to continue to blindly "rage against the dying of the light", is done not because you are going to change the outcome, but because of duty, because of nobility, because it is RIGHT to do so in the face of despair, in the face of sorrow, in the face of madness.

 

The end of Echoes of Eternity paints it all perfectly.

 

I love the setting because despite the doom awaiting them all, some still carry on, and fight against it.

 

So, why do I argue my point? Because I unironically think 40K is one of the greatest modern works we have left, I think its potential for story telling is nearly unmatched, and I want others to understand its greatness, and I do not want the core of the setting, to change.

 

I could keep going. I could link to art, to pictures, to tropes and related concepts, but ultimately I guess, thats it.

 

TLDR? I love the setting, I want others to see it for what it is, and share that common understanding.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Scribe
Forum formatting change 10/11

[Lord_Ikka]

I think this has gone fairly off of the main topic...

[Triszin]

A heavy salt rumor from valrak,

 

"Lion guard" body guards for lion.

 

To me, let's float this possibility, tin foil hat.

 

If it's somewhat accurate, I'd say it opens the possibility of gw testing using different  marine subfaction names, under the disguise as dark angels to test them, to spot leaks.

[Orange Knight]

I am now 100% convinced the Lion is returning.

There is a Dark Angel symbol behind the new Dark Mechanicus symbol from the new campaign book.

This to me indicated that these are the factions that will be the focus of these new expansions.

Guilliman returned in the climax of the gathering storm, so the build-up fits.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Orange Knight

[Lord Abaia]

15 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

There is a Dark Angel symbol behind the new Dark Mechanicus symbol from the new campaign book.

Can you post a link to the image, please? I haven't seen this and I can't find anything like it on War-Com.

[Redcomet]

Where is the Rock? Assuming that is where the Lion is still napping. 
 

 

[Orange Knight]

12 minutes ago, Magpie Knight said:

Can you post a link to the image, please? I haven't seen this and I can't find anything like it on War-Com.

 

[Skywrath]

3 hours ago, Triszin said:

A heavy salt rumor from valrak,

 

"Lion guard" body guards for lion.

 

To me, let's float this possibility, tin foil hat.

 

If it's somewhat accurate, I'd say it opens the possibility of gw testing using different  marine subfaction names, under the disguise as dark angels to test them, to spot leaks.

Where did he mention that? If so, that makes sense as the "victrix" guards of the Lion, plus the Lion guard were established lore wise, although I don't see why the Bladeguard couldn't fill that role. Or maybe the Lion Guard are special Primaris Bladeguard, like the Deathwing Knights being the elite for the Deathwing.

One interesting thought, I do wonder though with the return of the Lion, will the command structure of the Dark Angels change? Will the Lion assume the chapter master role, or will it be a copy paste of the Ultramarine one where Azrael remains the chapter master, but with the Lion at the head as the primarch? And If the first does remain true, will Azrael become the master of the Deathwing, while Belial takes a demotion? Seems would be too messy though.

 

[Marshal Reinhard]

The Rock can be pretty much anywhere it wants to be

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Skywrath said:

One interesting thought, I do wonder though with the return of the Lion, will the command structure of the Dark Angels change? 

That will probably depend on how (un)happy the Lion is with what actions have been taken in his absence. If the rumours of Azrael getting a Primaris glow-up are true then it implies the Lion will be leaving him in place.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Lion Guard will prolly be like Victrix Honor Guard.

[Kastor Krieg]

Huh, Lion, the custodian of Emperor's worst Destroyer weapons... possibly in cahoots with the Dark Mech all this time?
Luther was the "loyal one"? And the Fallen were... Lion's side?

I have to say that "neutral-evil" Lion with Dark Mechanicum backing would be a great added force between Imperium / Xenos / Chaos.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Kastor Krieg

[WrathOfTheLion]

I was thinking it'd make more sense for the Templars to go full evil, and join an Evil Dorn with the Dark Mechanicum, who've reconstituted his hand as a big chaos claw.

 

(/s, but this is basically the same thing :D)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So we finally get a loyalist Primarch and he goes full Dr Evil… not buying it, nope.

Edited October 11, 2022 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Lord Abaia]

49 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

Huh, Lion, the custodian of Emperor's worst Destroyer weapons... possibly in cahoots with the Dark Mech all this time?
Luther was the "loyal one"? And the Fallen were... Lion's side?

I have to say that "neutral-evil" Lion with Dark Mechanicum backing would be a great added force between Imperium / Xenos / Chaos.

I know that this is not super-serious and that there is precisely a 0% chance of this happening, but...
I'd totally collect that army.

There's just no way there would be enough customers like me to offset the (justifiable) outrage it would induce in the existing Dark Angels player base.

[jaxom]

17 hours ago, Scribe said:

The metaplot is about Rob now, and his adventures. Its shrinking the setting when it simply didnt need to happen. Yes, we had stories before about named Characters, but we also had the Soul Hunter series, and what a fantastic story of a bunch of cowards and backstabbers we had there? We had Lord's of Silence, or the Spears of the Emperor, all setting EXPANSION. When its about Rob coming back, Rob working with Cawl on Primaris, Primaris and Rob going out and saving the day, Rob showing up and helping Dante, Rob being a conduit for the Emperor waking up...that is when I have a problem.

^This. I, personally, like the Guilliman plotline and I still wish there had been less of a focus on him and more on the galaxy as a whole.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I personally have zero issues with primarchs coming back. If I'm going to accidentally read some bolter porn, I rather it be about Guilliman than Calgar. Now that there are primarchs back, there's no going back. The weakest primarch is still alot stronger than the strongest astartes. They need people to fight with.

 

I just don't want the emperor to come back in a physical sense. What happened at the end of Godblight was crazy and hopefully more of a blip on the radar than a sign of what's to come. Putting my next thought in spoilers as it pertains to the ending of Godblight.

 

Spoiler

I get the reason to not kill characters off in the story is to keep selling the model, it makes sense from a game perspective but then there is no stakes in the lore / books. If a Daemon Primarch dies a normal way, they regenerate in the warp. If when a loyalist primarch dies the emperor is just going to revive them like he did with Guilliman, then what's the point? Not saying we needed Guilliman to die or anything, but I'm hoping this is a one time thing. I think it's better story telling to just not kill the loyalist primarch then to have the emperor intervene, at least from here out. Don't need the same story twice with name swaps.

 

[The Emperors Champion22]

On 10/5/2022 at 8:32 AM, Special Officer Doofy said:

Guilliman was already "beat-down" and "saved" at the last minute from Mortarion in the end of Godblight. This is coming from someone who doesn't care for Guilliman, but I don't think they need to turn him (or any primarch for that matter) into a damsel in distress.

Original source/discussion thread: https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/376121-rumoured-big-hqs-next-year/

and against magnus, and fulgrim. he gets saved quite a lot.

[Noserenda]

Not read all 7 pages but personally id quite like Cypher and the Fallen to get to sleepy Lion first and spin him a line about remaining loyal and presenting the Sword, Lion cant quite place Cypher and there follows some drama between them and the Dark Angels plus successors that looks like Cyphers long planned diabolical scheme will work until right on the cusp the Lion has worked out the whole thing a while back and flips it back on them, possibly aided by Luther, possibly opposed by him, possibly both! Byzantine schemes and a casual disregard for human life are kinda his thing after all.

Azrael and possibly other characters (Luther!?!) get busted up and Primarised along the way perhaps. Enough of the Fallen are now in this time stream and working together to finally get them as a proper Chaos marines faction, albeit with small Imperium warband as an option, definitely not agents of the imperium though, let em sow discord! 

Either way the first arc for a returned Lion should be cleaning house in some form, then you can build up to him arguing with Guiliman/other brothers in future.

The best primarch return would be Vulkan though. Ghaz is poised to conquer Armageddon, all seems lost and ITS VULKAN OUT OF THE GREEN WITH STEEL CHAIR!

Edited October 13, 2022 by Noserenda
More greeeeeeen

[jaxom]

15 hours ago, Noserenda said:

the Sword

We've got the dangling plot thread of the broken Lion Sword (end of Imperium Secundus) currently carried by Holguin. I don't think it has ever been explicitly mentioned if the Lion used the Lion Sword to fight Luther or not. Going by miniatures, Cypher is clearly supposed to be carrying the sword that Lion El'Jonson broke in front of Guilliman. Holguin could easily die before of during the Battle of Caliban; it does mark the beginning of end of the Scouring (w/Guilliman going into stasis being the proper end of the Scouring), plenty of time for him to bite it and some else to take it up. Personally, I doubt we get a Battle of Caliban book before a 10th edition hits.

 

Admittedly, I am a lore fanatic and like everything to be consistent and neatly squared away. 

 

We also have the implicit concept that Luther and most (if not all) of the Dark Angels on Caliban were not deep members of the Hexagrammaton. For example, the Calibanite Dark Angels don't seem to know about the Firewing's role as counter-intelligence and doctrinal assessors. I think that more likely that it could also easily be chalked up to the poor excuse for consistency between various HH Dark Angel stories (which I've expanded on at length elsewhere). Simply put, the there were only two defined wings at the time Angels of Caliban was written.

[Noserenda]

Oh yeah they definitely didnt have an idea for Cyphers big plan back when he first appeared or Angels of Caliban was written, though id bet all the writers have headcanon about it. Similarly the extra wings only came about when the 1st legion got developed for Age of Darkness midway through the novel series. 

People always seem to expect far more consistency from GW than GW does :D 

[Slave to Darkness]

On 10/11/2022 at 8:30 PM, jaxom said:

^This. I, personally, like the Guilliman plotline and I still wish there had been less of a focus on him and more on the galaxy as a whole.

Then Emperors Children get a release and Fulgrim puts him back on his potty again.