Speculative Discussion El'Jonson rumoured to return: what do you expect will happen?

[Captain Idaho]

I said the Lion would care about the changes Guilliman has introduced, not the Emperor 

Regardless, every story needs conflict to be interesting. Hand waiving "all is fine and great" is just ham-fisted and boring. Hacks do that. Come on GW, you aren't hacks right?

[Scribe]

That story would be good to see for sure. It's the wider metaplot,  which I don't trust GW (Haley) with...

[Orange Knight]

6 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I said the Lion would care about the changes Guilliman has introduced, not the Emperor 

Regardless, every story needs conflict to be interesting. Hand waiving "all is fine and great" is just ham-fisted and boring. Hacks do that. Come on GW, you aren't hacks right?

 

Sure, but not if that conflict has already happened. We don't want them to delete, or ever worse - repeat, existing character progression.

Guilliman and the Lion have already argued, come to blows, made up, fought side-by-side, formed a mutual respect, etc. Erasing this would be a disservice to the characters, story and setting.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Orange Knight

[phandaal]

25 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I said the Lion would care about the changes Guilliman has introduced, not the Emperor 

Regardless, every story needs conflict to be interesting. Hand waiving "all is fine and great" is just ham-fisted and boring. Hacks do that. Come on GW, you aren't hacks right?

Conflict should be smart though, not something that can be solved by conflicted characters having an IQ higher than room temperature.

[Special Officer Doofy]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

I said the Lion would care about the changes Guilliman has introduced, not the Emperor 

Regardless, every story needs conflict to be interesting. Hand waiving "all is fine and great" is just ham-fisted and boring. Hacks do that. Come on GW, you aren't hacks right?

This. The Lion coming back and being like o hey look you're the new lord of the imperium with all these new fancy marines, high five bro! Is 10 times worse then the lion coming back and butting heads. That's bolter porn cranked to 11 and no one I know wants to read books about that. I have no idea why some some people have a hard time differentiating between sibling rivalry with differences of opinion and horus heresy 2.0. Like they can't argue about how they want things done? That's going to go straight to another galactic civil war? None of the people thinking it will lead to heresy 2.0 have argued with their siblings when their parents weren't home growing up? Did it end up with war and murder or just some family mischief and fun stories later in life? I find it more insulting to the Lion's IQ that he would come back and just be submissive, and not know how to disagree, argue and manipulate without it coming to blows. 

This whole IP was built upon grim dark. Without conflict it's boring. The Lion coming back and there being no issues with it would be so lack luster. I don't think anyone wants horus heresy 2.0, just some more strife for the imperium to keep the setting grim dark. 

Edit: I can't stress enough I never cared for the whole DA traitor memes or alpha legion loyal memes. The teams are already set. Chaos warbands constantly fight with eachother though. Loyalist ones can't even flex or chest bump on eachother from time to time? My favorite GW novel is lords of silence, while the climax takes place on a loyalist chapter's planet, the main conflict comes from two chaos warbands turning on eachother. Made for such a good story. Again, not expecting any loyalist coming to blows against eachother, but there could be some internal conflict instead of external conflict.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Special Officer Doofy

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Bryan Blaire said:

I’d be more interested in the potential internal conflict in the Dark Angels that the Lion’s return and his edicts he could issue afterward might cause than what he’d do to engender additional strife in the rest of the Imperium.  He was the least tolerant of dissent among his Marines, and how would he interact with the larger group of Unforgiven, etc.  What does he do with the revelation that it was the DA that caused the loss of their own home world would also be an interesting question to see answered by the Lion’s return.

It will be more telling in how they handle the small and internal to the Dark Angels and their hidden and questionable war/shame cover up questions than in what they use the Lion’s return to do in the overall setting.

Asmodai losing his head...

[Scribe]

4 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Again, not expecting any loyalist coming to blows against eachother, but there could be some internal conflict instead of external conflict.

The entire premise of the game, and therefore setting, is that everyone, could find cause to come to lethal blows, with everyone. Its again, so deeply ingrained into the setting, that it should be an assumed default.

As to the comment that 'well the Lion isnt dumb', yes he and is. EVERYONE, is 'dumb' in this regard. The idea that people should put aside their differences for the common good, has literally no place in this setting, by definition.

[Slave to Darkness]

Just now, Scribe said:

The entire premise of the game, and therefore setting, is that everyone, could find cause to come to lethal blows, with everyone. Its again, so deeply ingrained into the setting, that it should be an assumed default.

As to the comment that 'well the Lion isnt dumb', yes he and is. EVERYONE, is 'dumb' in this regard. The idea that people should put aside their differences for the common good, has literally no place in this setting, by definition.

My Little Primarch - Broship is Magic.

[Scribe]

I mean are we going to pretend that all these games between Imperial factions are just joint exercises, with dummy rounds? Thats it right? Its not that various segments of the byzantine organization (term used loosely) that is the Imperium come to blows, skirmish, or open hostility?

Certainly that never happens in 40K, a setting where pragmatic, logical application of military wisdom is paramount, right? I mean who would think of such a thing. Certainly not the factions which have operated a shadow war for 10K years, at the cost of the very Imperium itself.

No no..that makes no sense at all.

 

[Orange Knight]

@Special Officer Doofy

Oh I think the Lion absolutely will play political games, will make power plays, will annoy Guilliman (and visa versa) and that the setting and "meta plot" will be all the better for it.

But a Civil War? Heresy MK2 Electric Bugaloo? That's silly and childish. 

 

[Lexington]

My guess is that the Lion’s going to have some sort of external threat to settle. Like maybe Angron.

I would also not underestimate GW’s ability to just unfurl whatever they anticipate to cause fan chatter and then hand-wave away whatever contradictions or disjuncts it causes. It’s the BL’s job to fix that kind thing anymore. Let’s remember, like, the entire Gathering Storm.

[Kastor Krieg]

On 10/5/2022 at 6:50 PM, sarabando said:

reports of a huge brutal warrior leading a legion of black clad astartes massacring entire planets.  Bobby G is sure its abaddon starting a new black crusade and mobilises a huge crusade to meet them in battle. They race through the gauntlet to be greeted by the other half of Black Templars, led by a very very VERY angry + DORN +. 

M'yes, that will do.

[jaxom]

On 10/5/2022 at 12:04 PM, Orange Knight said:

Given an immediate choice, with an outlook to the short to medium term, between defending an Imperium which has fallen far from the vision of the Emperor, but is still loyal to him, or instead causing a further dispute that potentially leads to the extinction of the human race and the certain fall of the Empire, which would the Lion chose?

Loyalty is its own reward.

For 10,000 years, the forces of the Warmaster have raided out from the Eye of Terror, bring fear and Chaos to the people of the Imperium. Finally, they have their empire; half the galaxy riven by the Cicatrix Maledictum. Let them know the burden of Rule. The Tower of Angels is mobile and has shields strong enough it survived being at the center of a warp storm. Let the Lion hunt the foe in its lair. Let the First Legion teach the lost and the damned who the true Angels of Death are; for they shall know fear.

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

I mean are we going to pretend that all these games between Imperial factions are just joint exercises, with dummy rounds? Thats it right? Its not that various segments of the byzantine organization (term used loosely) that is the Imperium come to blows, skirmish, or open hostility?

Certainly that never happens in 40K, a setting where pragmatic, logical application of military wisdom is paramount, right? I mean who would think of such a thing. Certainly not the factions which have operated a shadow war for 10K years, at the cost of the very Imperium itself.

No no..that makes no sense at all.

 

I'll be honest, I almost missed that last part. Agreed, and *laughs at Mantis Warriors, Executioners, Lamenters, Fire Hawks, and everyone who looked at the Minotaurs funny*

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

11 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

The deposed High Lords should be plotting and scheming.

Have you not read The Regent's Shadow?

Edited October 6, 2022 by Lord Nord

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

I mean are we going to pretend that all these games between Imperial factions are just joint exercises, with dummy rounds? Thats it right? Its not that various segments of the byzantine organization (term used loosely) that is the Imperium come to blows, skirmish, or open hostility?

Certainly that never happens in 40K, a setting where pragmatic, logical application of military wisdom is paramount, right? I mean who would think of such a thing. Certainly not the factions which have operated a shadow war for 10K years, at the cost of the very Imperium itself.

No no..that makes no sense at all.

 

It doesn't matter if you want to call them joint exercises or open war. Games between players (with very rare exceptions that generally only count as far as which side won) are not part of the canon.

If they were, every single named character would be dead a thousand times over.

[Scribe]

48 minutes ago, Lord Nord said:

It doesn't matter if you want to call them joint exercises or open war. Games between players (with very rare exceptions that generally only count as far as which side won) are not part of the canon.

If they were, every single named character would be dead a thousand times over.

I mean, do we really need to find Canon of Imperium forces fighting?

[Lord_Ikka]

As a DA fan, I'd be happy to see the Lion become the second Loyalist Primarch back (we're in a big imbalance with 3 Daemon-Primarchs about to be running around and just Bobby G on his own...). As a fan of good writing however, I'm worried about how GW will/would approach this- while the last few entries have been good/decent, the handling of the Primaris issue (and the dropping of the Ynnari narratively) still taints my opinion of their overall plans in a negative light. As of right now, as long as they don't have the Lion be a secret Traitor or something, I'll be at least pleased with the development, but I'll also be reserving my judgement to see how it all plays out. 

[Slave to Darkness]

Just now, Scribe said:

I mean, do we really need to find Canon of Imperium forces fighting?

The Inquisition daily. 

[Scribe]

39 minutes ago, Slave to Darkness said:

The Inquisition daily. 

Thats simply the easy one.

I dont even have my old codex books. Heck, other than a select set of novels (and the majority of them have an author starting with A, and ending with DB because he is factually the best BL has) I downsized considerably over the last few years.

That said, it takes a minimum of effort to 'justify' Imperial factions coming into lethal conflict, and it has nothing to do with them being 'dumb' and everything to do with how the factions, and setting, operate. 

I mean I'm dumbfounded that it even needs to be discussed, because its so plainly part of the settings history.

[Slave to Darkness]

4 minutes ago, Scribe said:

Thats simply the easy one.

I dont even have my old codex books. Heck, other than a select set of novels (and the majority of them have an author starting with A, and ending with DB because he is factually the best BL has) I downsized considerably over the last few years.

That said, it takes a minimum of effort to 'justify' Imperial factions coming into lethal conflict, and it has nothing to do with them being 'dumb' and everything to do with how the factions, and setting, operate. 

I mean I'm dumbfounded that it even needs to be discussed, because its so plainly part of the settings history.

I wish they would go into the Age of Apostasy in greater detail. But thats a discussion for another time. 

[Bryan Blaire]

Scribe, you are going into exactly why I think it’s a misinterpretation of the current setting to think that because Guilliman has returned, it’s somehow made the entire Imperium into a monolith all going one way and that the introduction of the Lion needs to add to the internal strife to make the story better.

 

The Imperium won’t and has not drastically altered course in a single decade, much less century, and will not matter how many Primarchs are introduced for the Imperium - there is no monolith entity there - it’s already riven with cracks and factions within factions that have existed in tension, hostility, or open conflict for millennia.  They aren’t all coming together just because Guilliman has been proclaimed returned.  The Lion doesn’t have to come out of hibernation to have a slap fight with Roboute to change the trajectory of the Imperium or somehow “increase the strife” - that beast is still obliviously kicking itself in the nuts for all it’s worth regardless of the actions of two Primarchs while the ravening hordes just keep stabbing it repeatedly in every body part.  It will fall eventually simply because of what the Imperium is - it’s doomed because it already wasn’t a monolith, and really never was, even when the Emperor was walking around - what the latest lore introductions of the Primaris, Cawl, Guilliman, and all that jazz, are merely a shot in the arm with a stim - it ain’t going to turn the tide forever.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Bryan Blaire

[Scribe]

8 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Scribe, you are going into exactly why I think it’s a misinterpretation of the current setting to think that because Guilliman has returned, it’s somehow made the entire Imperium into a monolith all going one way and that the introduction of the Lion needs to add to the internal strife to make the story better.

The Imperium won’t and has not drastically altered course in a single decade, much less century, and will not matter how many Primarchs are introduced for the Imperium - there is no monolith entity there - it’s already riven with cracks and factions within factions that have existed in tension, hostility, or open conflict for millennia.  They aren’t all coming together just because Guilliman has been proclaimed returned.  The Lion doesn’t have to come out of hibernation to have a slap fight with Roboute to change the trajectory of the Imperium or somehow “increase the strife” - that beast is still obliviously kicking itself in the nuts for all it’s worth regardless of the actions of two Primarchs while the ravening hordes just keep stabbing it repeatedly in every body part.  It will fall eventually simply because of what the Imperium is - it’s doomed because it already wasn’t a monolith, and really never was, even when the Emperor was walking around - what the latest lore introductions of the Primaris, Cawl, Guilliman, and all that jazz, are merely a shot in the arm with a stim - it ain’t going to turn the tide forever.

Ultimately I agree with you, but my issue is, I want GW to show it. I want GW to make it crystal clear, that no the Imperium is not a monolith, united. I want the Church to call Rob a pretender, a heresy in the flesh. I want the Inquisition to call into question his relationship with the Eldar, and I want it in the books, in the campaign books, and on Warhammer Community in short stories.

I get that its not a monolith, you get it, others here get it (sadly, not all), but I want GW to do its part, because Primaris, Cawl, Rob? They actively worked against that, and did not reinforce the setting, but detracted from it.

So I get it. I even bought some of Haley's books to see what all the fuss was about, and yes, you are right, nothing has changed, but thats why I want the Lion's return, to be more.

I want it to make clear the divisions, the strife, the yes even foolish and self destructive behavior of the Imperium? Its bred into the bones, and instead of a bro hug and 'Lets go kill Abaddon, for old times sake.' I want GW to take the opportunity to make it clear once again, and then over and over, that the Imperium is flawed, and in terminal decline.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

7 hours ago, Scribe said:

The entire premise of the game, and therefore setting, is that everyone, could find cause to come to lethal blows, with everyone. Its again, so deeply ingrained into the setting, that it should be an assumed default.

As to the comment that 'well the Lion isnt dumb', yes he and is. EVERYONE, is 'dumb' in this regard. The idea that people should put aside their differences for the common good, has literally no place in this setting, by definition.

Sure anything could happen but then again that’s a poor premise that anything would happen.

[gideon stargreave]

I agree with Scribe here. It's clear from the decades of lore, games design and ephemera that the various factions in the game are designed to fight within themselves. It's made clear time and time again that there is no true chain of command inside the imperium, and that space marine chapters (for example) obey commands from ranking officials only when it suits them. Generals in teh roman empire would spend plenty of time fighting amongst themselves, especially as it stagnated, and the same was true in feudal europe, despite the "ultimate authority" of the pope. It makes sense that the imperium is fighting itself - without the need for genestealer cults or whatever - by design

[Orange Knight]

Yes, but the official narrative and tabletop sandbox are not fully connected.

You can have Calgar and Azrael fight on the tabletop and one of them will fall. This obviously has not and very likely will never happen in the official lore.

We shouldn't try and have a GW supported narrative reason for everything that takes place on the tabletop. And if you REALLY want to, just say it's a training exercise. I believe that in official lore, Guilliman once dressed up as Horus and had his chapter (or Legion?) at the time run scenarios in which they try to defeat him.