Speculative Discussion El'Jonson rumoured to return: what do you expect will happen?

[Slave to Darkness]

34 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I believe that in official lore, Guilliman once dressed up as Horus and had his chapter (or Legion?) at the time run scenarios in which they try to defeat him.

Guilliman dressed up as Horus would be hilarious, trynna cosplay a better fighter. Bet the armour would be 5 sizes larger than him as well. 

[Scribe]

44 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Yes, but the official narrative and tabletop sandbox are not fully connected.

You can have Calgar and Azrael fight on the tabletop and one of them will fall. This obviously has not and very likely will never happen in the official lore.

We shouldn't try and have a GW supported narrative reason for everything that takes place on the tabletop. And if you REALLY want to, just say it's a training exercise. I believe that in official lore, Guilliman once dressed up as Horus and had his chapter (or Legion?) at the time run scenarios in which they try to defeat him.

And so we return to the root of the issue.

The Setting, did not demand an overarching Metaplot or narrative, and is actively degraded by it. :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Magnus and Mort are definitely on opposite sides of the table due to the council of  Nikkea and what went down but you don’t see anything about them going at it now. I just think that if Guilliman and Lionel are portrayed as adversarial to each other we will end up with some going ‘there you see how bad they are’ which in my mind is both needless and detracts from the current setting. With everything going on they need to support each other and obviously the dynamic will change.

[lansalt]

35 minutes ago, Scribe said:

And so we return to the root of the issue.

The Setting, did not demand an overarching Metaplot or narrative, and is actively degraded by it. :)

That ended 20 years ago with the 13th Black Crusade/Eye of Terror campaign in 3rd edition. Since then GW has being slowly building a metaplot and narrative. First across each 40k faction, and then inevitably to its origins in the Heresy and beyond (The Fall of the Eldar, War on Heaven). That doesn't mean the setting is going to "end" at some point, just that GW will keep adding stories to it while the doomsday clock is perpetually two minutes to midnight. Everything changes so everything remains the same in practice.

 

 

[Lexington]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

And so we return to the root of the issue.

The Setting, did not demand an overarching Metaplot or narrative, and is actively degraded by it. :)

Not disagreeing with the spirit of what you’re saying, here, but I think it’s a stretch to call what 40K has anymore a “plot.” Did a longer post about that here.

[Scribe]

31 minutes ago, lansalt said:

That ended 20 years ago with the 13th Black Crusade/Eye of Terror campaign in 3rd edition. Since then GW has being slowly building a metaplot and narrative. First across each 40k faction, and then inevitably to its origins in the Heresy and beyond (The Fall of the Eldar, War on Heaven). That doesn't mean the setting is going to "end" at some point, just that GW will keep adding stories to it while the doomsday clock is perpetually two minutes to midnight. Everything changes so everything remains the same in practice.

 

 

Funnily enough I've come to conclude that 3rd edition was the narrative peak. 

[Slave to Darkness]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

And so we return to the root of the issue.

The Setting, did not demand an overarching Metaplot or narrative, and is actively degraded by it. :)

Just ignore it and pretend it didnt happen. In my games the Eye of Terror is still there, Cadia hasnt blown up (gutted lol) and Guilliman is still on the toilet with a sore throat. Im head cannoning a Conclave of Inquisitors heading an anti Guilliman movement (Strange men sat in wheelchairs distributing swords is no basis for a system of Imperial Regency) for when I get around to playing in the current setting but that will be when Guard get a boost and they sort out the damn rules.  

[Scribe]

28 minutes ago, Slave to Darkness said:

Just ignore it and pretend it didnt happen. In my games the Eye of Terror is still there, Cadia hasnt blown up (gutted lol) and Guilliman is still on the toilet with a sore throat. Im head cannoning a Conclave of Inquisitors heading an anti Guilliman movement (Strange men sat in wheelchairs distributing swords is no basis for a system of Imperial Regency) for when I get around to playing in the current setting but that will be when Guard get a boost and they sort out the damn rules.  

I'm big on the concept that the setting is a shared playground, its what enables us to find common ground across the globe.

I get you though. :)

[Lord Abaia]

The big question I have is will the Lion paint his armor green or will he keep it black?

[Nephaston]

8 minutes ago, Magpie Knight said:

The big question I have is will the Lion paint his armor green or will he keep it black?

Quartered Black, Green, and Bone White with Red accents

[Orange Knight]

15 hours ago, Scribe said:

And so we return to the root of the issue.

The Setting, did not demand an overarching Metaplot or narrative, and is actively degraded by it. :)

But in this case your complaint is about 25 years late?

Since the moment GW created named characters and narrative plots such as the Black Crusade, the setting has evolved to include story and "canon" elements.

The example I gave, of Calgar fighting Azrael, would be applicable in 3rd edition 40k, never mind 9th or 10th.

 

Edit:

In fact the entire premises of the grievance doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Let's take it back to 2nd edition. The moment GW created a list of official chapters (as a very basic example) they became the architects of the "canon" lore of those chapters. 

If you create a campaign in which the Imperial Fists are wiped out to the last man, it would contradict official lore as that chapter continues to exist.

Despite this, you still have creative freedom within the setting because you can create your own chapter, and take their story in whatever direction you want.

Even now, in 9th edition, with all the lore flying around and all the stories involving heroes from legend, you can still create your own chapter in some random corner of the galaxy, and tell whatever story you want that can ignore everything that GW has written in the last 20 years.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Orange Knight

[Kastor Krieg]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

If you create a campaign in which the Imperial Fists are wiped out to the last man, it would contradict official lore

Fists were wiped out in the War of the Beast.

[Cyrox]

2 hours ago, Kastor Krieg said:

Fists were wiped out in the War of the Beast.

 

I still can't get over the decision to allow that from a narrative point of view - I've just deleted it from my headcanon, or at the very least imagined some small element of Fists on a ship somewhere else while the War of the Beast was going on.

That way it wasn't the IF wiped out to the last man (chapter), it was just to the last man (in that war), which would still require the Last Wall protocol to rebuild.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Cyrox

[Kastor Krieg]

1 hour ago, Cyrox said:

I still can't get over the decision to allow that from a narrative point of view - I've just deleted it from my headcanon, or at the very least imagined some small element of Fists on a ship somewhere else while the War of the Beast was going on.

That way it wasn't the IF wiped out to the last man (chapter), it was just to the last man (in that war), which would still require the Last Wall protocol to rebuild.

Yeah, I'm pretty much in the same spot.

[Scribe]

8 hours ago, Kastor Krieg said:

Fists were wiped out in the War of the Beast.

That never happened. That whole series, was actually never written, and is an elaborate troll. (Head Canon).

 

9 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

But in this case your complaint is about 25 years late?

Since the moment GW created named characters and narrative plots such as the Black Crusade, the setting has evolved to include story and "canon" elements.

The example I gave, of Calgar fighting Azrael, would be applicable in 3rd edition 40k, never mind 9th or 10th.

 

Edit:

In fact the entire premises of the grievance doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Let's take it back to 2nd edition. The moment GW created a list of official chapters (as a very basic example) they became the architects of the "canon" lore of those chapters. 

If you create a campaign in which the Imperial Fists are wiped out to the last man, it would contradict official lore as that chapter continues to exist.

Despite this, you still have creative freedom within the setting because you can create your own chapter, and take their story in whatever direction you want.

Even now, in 9th edition, with all the lore flying around and all the stories involving heroes from legend, you can still create your own chapter in some random corner of the galaxy, and tell whatever story you want that can ignore everything that GW has written in the last 20 years.

I dont think I can agree.

The story was filled out, in a backward's compatible manner often enough, though of course retcon's did take place but its not nearly on the same scale as the Gathering Storm and resulting mess.

This isnt about us losing our creative freedom, the universe is a big place (and we will not be missed) but is instead about how these changes were forced in, and how they did not fit but even worse, the perception by segments of the community being wildly inaccurate. 

The perception, that this was improvement, that this was progress, that the Imperium was striking out winning. As I said in the thread that kicks this off. "I hope the lore isnt terrible, needing 10 novels to fix." because thats exactly what happened. The lore was bad, some novels were written many of average quality, and you now have people calling for the Emperor to wake up.

We are on the road to ruin of this setting, and Haley will be the deliverer.

[Orange Knight]

You don't like the new stories and plots. Perfectly valid, but also subjective opinion.

No one can force you to like something. As long as the hobby still allows you to have freedom with your personal army, then you can also ignore the novels and lore that are being released.

 

15 hours ago, Kastor Krieg said:

Fists were wiped out in the War of the Beast.

Lol yes, it's a bad example. But OK, in that very particular event in M32, yes they were wiped out.

Outside of that, any homebrew mission or narrative campaign set in the current timeline that you create that ends with the chapter being wiped out would be non canon.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Orange Knight

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The Fists were not entirely wiped out. The Chapter Master survived the onslaught.

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

No one can force you to like something. As long as the hobby still allows you to have freedom with your personal army, then you can also ignore the novels and lore that are being released.

This again misses the original point.

I hope the lions return is handled better, with lore which fits 40K, and doesn't require 10 novels to correct.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The same can be said potentially about the new campaign - so often it seems the Black Crusades were bungled. Really it can be quite subjective.

[Special Officer Doofy]

All I got to say is if the world eaters are getting a new version of this guy:

Then the imperium will need at least 2 more primarchs to combat chaos's superior engineering... 

[Doghouse]

I still have three of those somewhere along with the original ugly Berserkers.

On 10/7/2022 at 10:51 PM, Magpie Knight said:

The big question I have is will the Lion paint his armor green or will he keep it black?

I'd rather he kept it black but to be honest I can see him getting an entirely new green armour made for him in a similar way Guilliman did, maybe with some new gimmick to it.

[Karhedron]

According to his Primarch novel, Johnson always perceived the Emperor as wearing green armour (rather than the gold he is usually depicted in). I wonder if this is setting up a reason for a change. 

[jaxom]

On 10/6/2022 at 9:24 PM, Bryan Blaire said:

what the latest lore introductions of the Primaris, Cawl, Guilliman, and all that jazz, are merely a shot in the arm with a stim - it ain’t going to turn the tide forever.

^This. GW, to my constant surprise, has been intensely subtle in representing the scale of threat the Imperium is under. 

• The Golden Throne is failing.
• The Indomitus Crusade (logistically larger than the Great Crusade) retook half the territory in same period of time.
• The Warden of Imperium Nihilus has united control over three systems.
• The Thousand Sons have a 15 system 'empire' within the Imperium.
• The Death Guard have a three system 'empire' within the Imperium... and it took all 500 worlds of Ultramar to keep them contained.
• Abaddon has increased his available resources exponentially... and he's still learning and playing the long game while the Daemon-Primarchs repeat their doomed loops of failure because daemons can't truly change (but they make good distractions.
• Daemon-Princes not active since the Scouring are coming out of their torpor in increasing numbers.
• Fabius Bile Prime is once again taking an interest in the Imperium.
• The Dark Angels are actively directing xenos to attack other Chapters to cull the ranks of the Unforgiven who have been infected with a highly contagious warp-disease.
• The Blood Angels now have an avatar of the Black Rage, and if he ever loses a control, he'll take the chapter down with him.
• The Space Wolves have new Primaris marines, but there is still their recruitment problem. Fenris cannot support the exponential increase in gene-seed rejection rate over an extended period of time (though that exact period is vague and could be a few thousand years since it was reset by a fresh infusion of Primarch DNA info).
• The Necrons are blanking entire sectors of space.
• The Tyranids are just as much of a threat as before.
• The T'au have started unilaterally genociding humans instead of attempting diplomacy.
• The Drukhari are raiding more often because more targets of opportunity and they need the souls to deal with the warp breach in Comorragh.
• The Aeldari are encroaching on Imperium space more often as half the galaxy is now much more dangerous to be in for a psychic race.
• The Leagues of Votann are encroaching on Imperium space more often as the galactic core is increasingly rocked with warp storms.
•  

[Skywrath]

4 minutes ago, jaxom said:

^This. GW, to my constant surprise, has been intensely subtle in representing the scale of threat the Imperium is under. 

• The Golden Throne is failing.
• The Indomitus Crusade (logistically larger than the Great Crusade) retook half the territory in same period of time.
• The Warden of Imperium Nihilus has united control over three systems. 
• The Thousand Sons have a 15 system 'empire' within the Imperium.
• The Death Guard have a three system 'empire' within the Imperium... and it took all 500 worlds of Ultramar to keep them contained.
• Abaddon has increased his available resources exponentially... and he's still learning and playing the long game while the Daemon-Primarchs repeat their doomed loops of failure because daemons can't truly change (but they make good distractions.
• Daemon-Princes not active since the Scouring are coming out of their torpor in increasing numbers.
• Fabius Bile Prime is once again taking an interest in the Imperium.
• The Dark Angels are actively directing xenos to attack other Chapters to cull the ranks of the Unforgiven who have been infected with a highly contagious warp-disease.
• The Blood Angels now have an avatar of the Black Rage, and if he ever loses a control, he'll take the chapter down with him.
• The Space Wolves have new Primaris marines, but there is still their recruitment problem. Fenris cannot support the exponential increase in gene-seed rejection rate over an extended period of time (though that exact period is vague and could be a few thousand years since it was reset by a fresh infusion of Primarch DNA info).
• The Necrons are blanking entire sectors of space.
• The Tyranids are just as much of a threat as before.
• The T'au have started unilaterally genociding humans instead of attempting diplomacy.
• The Drukhari are raiding more often because more targets of opportunity and they need the souls to deal with the warp breach in Comorragh.
• The Aeldari are encroaching on Imperium space more often as half the galaxy is now much more dangerous to be in for a psychic race.
• The Leagues of Votann are encroaching on Imperium space more often as the galactic core is increasingly rocked with warp storms.
•  

Sources (in yellow), my kind sir? 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Skywrath

[Slave to Darkness]

5 hours ago, Doghouse said:

I still have three of those somewhere along with the original ugly Berserkers.

I'd rather he kept it black but to be honest I can see him getting an entirely new green armour made for him in a similar way Guilliman did, maybe with some new gimmick to it.

Wanna part with some?? 

 

As for the Armour, they will probably change it for 'reasons' so we buy another mini when the HH one is perfectly fine already. Plastic Guilliman looks naff, HH Guilliman is actually a damn fine sculpt.