Speculative Discussion El'Jonson rumoured to return: what do you expect will happen?

[Sugarlessllama]

I'm going to guess that it's going to be a mini-civil war. I think the Lion is going to find out about Imperium Secundus, and flip out. Some Chapters and maybe even the Custodes are going to side with him, and the rest of the Imperium is going to side with Guilliman. My big question is: where is Cypher going to fit into all of this? Are they going to expand upon the Fallen? I wouldn't be surprised, if Codex: Chaos Space Marines gets the SM treatment, and there will be a base codex and the legions get a supplement of their own, including Renegades and The Fallen. 

[Redcomet]

17 minutes ago, Sugarlessllama said:

I'm going to guess that it's going to be a mini-civil war. I think the Lion is going to find out about Imperium Secundus, and flip out. Some Chapters and maybe even the Custodes are going to side with him, and the rest of the Imperium is going to side with Guilliman. My big question is: where is Cypher going to fit into all of this? Are they going to expand upon the Fallen? I wouldn't be surprised, if Codex: Chaos Space Marines gets the SM treatment, and there will be a base codex and the legions get a supplement of their own, including Renegades and The Fallen. 

Why would they go to war over it? 

[Bryan Blaire]

The Lion was part of Imperium Secundus during the Horus Heresy - that doesn’t seem like something he’d have an issue with 10K years later…

Did you mean the Imperium Nihilus, @Sugarlessllama?

Even there, while I could see (and already proposed) the Lion moving to “set that right”, by virtue of him wanting to have huge monster-crushing annihilation crusades (a la destroying all the monsters of Caliban) as part of his modus operandi, I don’t believe there would be any reason he would be “at war” with Guilliman over it.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Bryan Blaire

[jaxom]

2 hours ago, Skywrath said:

Sources (in yellow), my kind sir? 

Not a prob. I don't have the books right in front of me for super specific page numbers or quotations but:

"The Thousand Sons have a 15 [upon a quick seach of if it was Prospero or Prosperan, a quick map count showed 10 systems] system 'empire' within the Imperium." - Psychic Awakening: Ritual of the Damned. Search for 'Prosperan Rift' or "Empire of the Eye' for more info.

"The Dark Angels are actively directing xenos to attack other Chapters to cull the ranks of the Unforgiven who have been infected with a highly contagious warp-disease." Space Marine Conquests: War of Secrets. It is a divisive book among the Dark Angel community, but hey, Dark Angels have been getting the lore short-end-of-the-stick for over 15 years.

"The Blood Angels now have an avatar of the Black Rage, and if he ever loses a control, he'll take the chapter down with him." Darkness In The Blood. Actually a very interesting read and makes me hope there's an updated Sanguinor model some day. Blood Angel players seem to like how it shows what an uphill struggle Dante has in front of him, and how Guilliman+Cawl can't magically fix everything, and those two are barely keeping ahead of the tidal wave.

[Sugarlessllama]

1 hour ago, Redcomet said:

Why would they go to war over it? 

Because in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war.

[Sugarlessllama]

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

"The Dark Angels are actively directing xenos to attack other Chapters to cull the ranks of the Unforgiven who have been infected with a highly contagious warp-disease." Space Marine Conquests: War of Secrets. It is a divisive book among the Dark Angel community, but hey, Dark Angels have been getting the lore short-end-of-the-stick for over 15 years.

 

So the Founding Chapter is re-directing xenos forces so that they will engage their Successor Chapters and inflict casualties? Damn. That's cold. 

[Slave to Darkness]

1 hour ago, Bryan Blaire said:

The Lion was part of Imperium Secundus during the Horus Heresy - that doesn’t seem like something he’d have an issue with 10K years later…

Did you mean the Imperium Nihilus, @Sugarlessllama?

Even there, while I could see (and already proposed) the Lion moving to “set that right”, by virtue of him wanting to have huge monster-crushing annihilation crusades (a la destroying all the monsters of Caliban) as part of his modus operandi, I don’t believe there would be any reason he would be “at war” with Guilliman over it.

Yeah I could see the Lion having a jolly good time doing his own thing, Guillimans busy keeping the Imperium going and he has a whole playground on the other side of the rift with plenty of things to kill. 

 

If the Lion comes back and the mini looks good I may be tempted at dipping my toe into a small Dark Angel army, I miss my army I had in 4th ed. 

[Orange Knight]

5 hours ago, Sugarlessllama said:

I'm going to guess that it's going to be a mini-civil war. I think the Lion is going to find out about Imperium Secundus, and flip out. Some Chapters and maybe even the Custodes are going to side with him.

 

The Lion, along with Sanguinius, were both a part of Imperium Secundus, and ultimately agreed with it.

The Custodes are supportive of Guilliman, and have even protected his rule on Terra whilst he's out Crusading. He also bears the Sword of The Emperor, and has been the beneficiary of several "miracles" or "interventions" by the Emperor. It would be very odd if they suddenly decided to go to war with him.

The Inquisition are probably the ones with the biggest grievance, as Guilliman's new order of historians have a directive in opposition to those of the Inquisition.

[Scribe]

12 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The Custodes are supportive of Guilliman, and have even protected his rule on Terra whilst he's out Crusading. He also bears the Sword of The Emperor, and has been the beneficiary of several "miracles" or "interventions" by the Emperor. It would be very odd if they suddenly decided to go to war with him.

Thank you for encapsulating everything I see wrong with Rob's return. :D

[WrathOfTheLion]

3 hours ago, Sugarlessllama said:

So the Founding Chapter is re-directing xenos forces so that they will engage their Successor Chapters and inflict casualties? Damn. That's cold. 

Yeah, it's a piece of lore received pretty negatively by the DA players.

Hence after stuff like that, my personal reason to say 'absolutely hell no' to these wants to burn us at the pyre further for their own amusement or personal lore views.

Edited October 9, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Orange Knight]

@Scribe

Sure, but your dislike is based on subjective opinion.

These plots and developments have been detailed across multiple novels. I think that it's reasonable to dislike them, but not reasonable to expect them to change the way the setting is developing.

Dark Imperium, for example, is Haley's best selling book, and he is a prolific Black Library author. It would appear that people are generally interested to read about these things.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Orange Knight

[Scribe]

Its fan fiction level stuff. I'm aware its his best selling book, the book would have sold just as well, with a more realistic (to the setting) premise.

Then again, the number of folks who think the Imperium are the good guys, is shockingly high. That people think the Emperor returning and facing down the Chaos Gods is a 'good development' is staggering.

EDIT: Like to the point of 'how can you even have liked 40K in the first place if you think thats a plausible, or even remotely good idea.' kind of thing.

EDIT x 2: And for the record, it wasnt until Godblight really jumped the shark, that I had issue. It was bad before (Primaris, Cawl, Rob, Yneed) but survivable. The Emperor coming back whole, sound of mind, and ready to throw down with Chaos? Thats terminal.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Scribe

[Sugarlessllama]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

The Custodes are supportive of Guilliman, and have even protected his rule on Terra whilst he's out Crusading. He also bears the Sword of The Emperor, and has been the beneficiary of several "miracles" or "interventions" by the Emperor. It would be very odd if they suddenly decided to go to war with him.

True, but the Custodes are not the brightest. I mean, they attacked the Primaris replacements for the Brazen Minotaurs on way to meet the first born chapter for the first time because the first born chapter had gone renegade. I mean, killing a bunch of space marines that you have been on crusade with because other marines that they have never met, nor interacted with in any way shape or form went rogue is not logical at all. 

But they did it with gusto. 

So the idea that they would turn on a primarch that has been known to pal around with xenos, in favor of another primarch who they might view as more pure, or more favorable for internal plans is well within the realm of possibility. The idea that they wouldn't betray Guilliman because he has a shiny sword  or other relic is...well worse has happened over less. 

The idea that one primarch would betray another primarch and split the Imperium in half in order to "save it" is the basis for the entire Horus Heresy. 

[Scribe]

28 minutes ago, Sugarlessllama said:

True, but the Custodes are not the brightest. I mean, they attacked the Primaris replacements for the Brazen Minotaurs on way to meet the first born chapter for the first time because the first born chapter had gone renegade. I mean, killing a bunch of space marines that you have been on crusade with because other marines that they have never met, nor interacted with in any way shape or form went rogue is not logical at all. 

This is actually one of the great examples of how it should have all gone down.

Why should Custode's trust Astartes? They have an unbroken record of history, they know they are not to be trusted.

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

Then again, the number of folks who think the Imperium are the good guys, is shockingly high.

A friend of mine is fond of noting that a lot of people don't quite understand the difference between hero and protagonist. The Imperium of Man is not the hero of the story, but they are definitely the protagonist.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I've never understood the threat of the custodes to the astartes. If the custodes starting taking them out there are soooo many more astartes, they could just take the custodes out.

[Scribe]

5 minutes ago, jaxom said:

A friend of mine is fond of noting that a lot of people don't quite understand the difference between hero and protagonist. The Imperium of Man is not the hero of the story, but they are definitely the protagonist.

For sure, its the Imperium's story, I dont disagree there at all. To me its the whole 2 sides of the same coin thing. Imperium, and Chaos, the story of Humanity with the other factions as foils.

[Orange Knight]

4 hours ago, jaxom said:

A friend of mine is fond of noting that a lot of people don't quite understand the difference between hero and protagonist. The Imperium of Man is not the hero of the story, but they are definitely the protagonist.

 

There are no good factions in 40k, but there are good guys operating within the constraints of the universe and within some of these factions.

Whilst the Imperium of man is indeed a brutal and squalid Empire that should not be aspired to in the general sense, within the particular context of 40k, it can be supported. After all the alternatives are worse, or you would be making the nihilistic argument that extinction is somehow better.

[Sugarlessllama]

5 hours ago, Scribe said:

This is actually one of the great examples of how it should have all gone down.

Why should Custode's trust Astartes? They have an unbroken record of history, they know they are not to be trusted.

That doesn't even make sense. The Custodes in my example know for a FACT that the Astartes they are with have nothing to do with the parent chapter going renegade. They know for a FACT the Astartes they are with are fresh out of the Primaris ice, and have only fought at the side of Guilliman. These Astartes have only done one thing in their lives, fight at the side of the Primarch and save the Imperium. It makes no logical sense.

The Custodes on the other hand.... well, they have watched the Imperium burn. They have allowed the Imperial Truth to die. The know the Emperor did not want a church, yet they allowed one to prosper. They know the bible of the Imperial Cult was written by a traitor Primarch. But they let that happen as well. They have allowed Terra to rot from within, to the point where there are roving gangs of feral bureaucrats murdering each other over parchment; parchment to be used to re-write the same useless information for the sake of doing it. And in this case, when given one simple task from the Primarch himself: take these Primaris marines and place them with this chapter. They couldn't help themselves but to defy the will of the Primarch using the most inane logic they could muster in the moment.

If anything, the Custodes betraying Guilliman is only a matter of time. And the Lion's return would give them all the justification they need to reset the status quo.

So yeah, my bet is on civil war.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Sugarlessllama

[Felix Antipodes]

While I don’t believe GW are planning a HH II type civil war, it has been shown many times in the lore that the only thing the Custodes hate more than the Astartes are the Primaris themselves.  So regardless of the direction GW takes the return of the Lion will not be a reason to raise a toast within their ranks.

Noting there appears to be at least two factions within the Custodes wrt the “Astartes problem” we are more likely to see a civil war in their ranks than the Imperium itself.

On topic:  If nothing else comes out of his return there should be a resolution to the entire DA/Fallen storyline or, at the very least, a major leap forward.  I could also see a clean house happening within the DA as the Lion sorts out those responsible for the “War of Secrets” shenanigans.

[Duymon]

When / if Johnson rejoins the DA it will be the 2nd time he has to break down all the secretive, prideful cliques and turn the DA into a more noble legion :D

Pretty excited as a DA player myself

Edited October 10, 2022 by Duymon

[sarabando]

i just want him to come back and expose that both the Dark Angels and the Fallen are loyalists who think the other side are the traitors and its been 10k of secret war for nothing. Then have him rebuild his legion in spite of Guillimans protests which makes several other chapter masters ALSO disregard the codex and start swelling their numbers. 

[Scribe]

8 hours ago, Sugarlessllama said:

It makes no logical sense.

This is the point. The Imperium,  it's institutions,  and especially its flawed servants, are not logical.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Neither is Chaos. I don’t see the point? Is it a general claim or just some elements?

[Karhedron]

36 minutes ago, Scribe said:

This is the point. The Imperium,  it's institutions,  and especially its flawed servants, are not logical.

That is true but that does not mean every single action will be illogical, merely that we cannot trust in a logical outcome.

From a story POV, I think that too much tension between Guilliman and the Lion would just be retreading all the story beats from Imperium Secundus, particularly if it involves the Lion taking issue with Guilliman's leadership.

It could work if it is the Lion on the defensive this time around. He is trying to clean up the mess of the Unforgiven and Fallen whilst still trying to save the Imperium AND not let RG know on what is going on. Have RG be the one who is mistrustful of the Lion's hidden agenda this time.