Speculative Discussion El'Jonson rumoured to return: what do you expect will happen?

[redmapa]

I think that at this point Guilliman may be portrayed as suffering from the weight of the Imperium and its hellish  bureaucracy, perhaps to the point to which Guilliman is slowly becoming just another cog in the system and that would be a good juxtaposition of characters between Guilliman and the Lion, it's a situation that I think can have Guilliman trust the Lion to do his own thing without the constraints of bureaucracy and a role that fits the Lions character as he can have his own agenda and be Roboutes hands in the Imperium doing the things Guilliman cannot. The statesman and the Warmaster.

[Scribe]

48 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Neither is Chaos. I don’t see the point? Is it a general claim or just some elements?

You really dont see the point?

10 hours ago, Sugarlessllama said:

It makes no logical sense.

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

This is the point. The Imperium,  it's institutions,  and especially its flawed servants, are not logical.

How about now? Instead of responding with some whataboutism/proto-strawman when I have not mentioned Chaos at all.

49 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

That is true but that does not mean every single action will be illogical, merely that we cannot trust in a logical outcome.

No, of course not, but this again speaks to my points, nebulous as they are.

The story of the Custodes was panned by segments of the community that simply dont grasp the reality of the setting. Its exactly what I would hope to see if (when, lets be real) the Lion and Emperor return.

The Imperium is not a monolith, so lets have GW, BL, and the authors, not treat it as such. That means Custodes killing Primaris because "Astartes betrayed us before." and it means Black Templars killing Custodes, for whatever reason they had in that recent book.

As I've said, I simply hope it doesnt take 10 books to make the lore more setting appropriate this time.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Why should Custodes be defined by one very short piece of fiction? Seriously that makes no sense to me .

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Why should Custodes be defined by one very short piece of fiction? Seriously that makes no sense to me .

lol they are not.

The behavior of 1 Custodian leader, is not defining the behavior for all. Thats literally the point.

The Imperium is trillions of souls. The servants of the Corpse on the Throne, are a loose gathering of wildly different groups, with conflicting priorities, belief, practice, and goals.

We should see MORE example's like the Custodian who clearly had distrust for the Primaris, and it should be coming via Warhammer Community (as I believe that story did if I remember) White Dwarf, Codex, core book, and campaign books.

Because thats an accurate reflection on the Imperium. Should we have examples of loyalty and 'logical' behavior? Certainly! Should we have just as many examples of betrayal, infighting, and disagreement? YES.

Because that is what actually makes sense for the Imperium.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here’s the thing that gets me when discussing lore with you. Interpretation can be quite subjective at times. Personally I don’t have any concerns regarding how others see it but certainly I don’t think anyone should expect others to must see it as they do… even if apparently they miss the “whole point”.

[Scribe]

12 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Here’s the thing that gets me when discussing lore with you. Interpretation can be quite subjective at times. Personally I don’t have any concerns regarding how others see it but certainly I don’t think anyone should expect others to must see it as they do… even if apparently they miss the “whole point”.

It shouldn't be up for debate, that a galactic empire with thousands, 10's of thousands, hell 100's of thousands of tyrants, petty warlords, warrior kings, and individuals with the power as individuals to consign worlds to destruction, where communication is done via DREAM, where transport is handled via HELL, and where grudges are held on to over 100's of years for even 'human' leadership, where "Gods" are variously puddles of soul stuff, Star Devouring entities, or the local Smart Phone, has internal conflict and division.

This is not interpretation, nor is it subjective, unless GW has utterly failed to communicate the setting and that is what I take issue with and want to see avoided this time, when they release the Lion and Emperor, to much fanfare.

 

EDIT:

Look at it this way. In our world, its possible for reasonable people to disagree on the implementation of a solution, yes?

Now what if you had 2 fleets, 2 forces, equal in strength, answerable to 2 individuals who disagree. Both are loyal, both are 'logical' in the framework of the setting, and both feel they are correct.

What next? What makes sense, within the context of the setting, when they cannot agree to a resolution of the problem.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Scribe

[Marshal Reinhard]

Given his statement in effect being akin to saying "its annoying/tiring" to debate someone who assumes everyone must see things they do, for you to then reply "This shouldn't be up for debate" kinda proves his point. And I'm not sure this protest of his was in just regard to that the Imperium is extremely vast and holds vast array of opinions, but more in general with how you present your opinion....

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Given his statement in effect being akin to saying "its annoying/tiring" to debate someone who assumes everyone must see things they do, for you to then reply "This shouldn't be up for debate" kinda proves his point. And I'm not sure this protest of his was in just regard to that the Imperium is extremely vast and holds vast array of opinions, but more in general with how you present your opinion....

Is 9th a good game? Its reasonable to debate such things.

Are there facets of the lore that are really undebatable? I believe so, and I believe there is a few decades of lore to defend that position. If he cares to prove me wrong, we've got the next 10 years to debate it. :)

EDIT: Or? He can walk away then. He's the one taking extreme positions like 1 Custode defining all Custodes, not me.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Scribe

[Marshal Reinhard]

1 minute ago, Scribe said:

EDIT: Or? He can walk away then. He's the one taking extreme positions like 1 Custode defining all Custodes, not me.

You'll have to pardon me for latching onto this one line of yours, but this is patently false. Basic reading comprehension leads you to conclude he found the notion nonsensical. To quote him verbatim: 

45 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Seriously that makes no sense to me .

No possible reading can have that be a position he holds.

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

You'll have to pardon me for latching onto this one line of yours, but this is patently false. Basic reading comprehension leads you to conclude he found the notion nonsensical. To quote him verbatim: 

No possible reading can have that be a position he holds.

Then read the posts again. He clearly took it out of context.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Which at most you could claim was him misconstruing your position, not that he held it himself, surely?

[Scribe]

14 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Which at most you could claim was him misconstruing your position, not that he held it himself, surely?

Intentionally, yes.

My response clarified for him, since he needed it I guess, just as he needed clarification earlier when he attempted to strawman the actual position?

[DesuVult]

I don't think the Lion returning should lead to more internal strife given what Guilliman and Lion agree one, however, I think GW might go that route anyway for some nonsense reason.  Take the custodes example being argued over currently.  Custodes used to be rational and reasonable individuals, even back during Vandire's reign the custodes negotiated with the Daughters of The Emperor rather than fight them and did so very well, even surrendering some members to be kept as potential prisoners.  Current custodes are kind of [redacted].  Guilliman had to reign some in to not just kill people haphazardly. 

The Lion's return I expect to be very weird with Cypher.  GW has been trying their best to dance around Cypher with Guilliman and the attached writing has been very poor I feel.  If the Lion comes back they kind of have to solve Cypher.  He won't be an unknown entity anymore, The Lion would know who he is and likely what he is doing.

[Scribe]

8 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

The Lion's return I expect to be very weird with Cypher.  GW has been trying their best to dance around Cypher with Guilliman and the attached writing has been very poor I feel.  If the Lion comes back they kind of have to solve Cypher.  He won't be an unknown entity anymore, The Lion would know who he is and likely what he is doing.

Thats just another example I guess of what exactly is going on post Gathering Storm, with the story vs setting.

I wonder now actually if we arent just in some weird state of fits and starts of setting vs story clash.

As to the topic previously, I guess GW is covering it in other channels.

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There’s an invisible ceiling for some of us. I’ve said everything I have to say on this topic and am glad to know fellow fraters understand my intent.

[Slave to Darkness]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

Thats just another example I guess of what exactly is going on post Gathering Storm, with the story vs setting.

I wonder now actually if we arent just in some weird state of fits and starts of setting vs story clash.

As to the topic previously, I guess GW is covering it in other channels.

 

There is no such thing as an innocent craftworld. 

[Kastor Krieg]

5 hours ago, Scribe said:

Black Templars killing Custodes

wait, what the hell now? O_o

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Kastor Krieg said:

wait, what the hell now? O_o

I saw this thrown around based on a recent book review. Sourced.

EDIT: Yeah.

 

Spoiler

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/uhi3ah/holy_:cuss:_the_black_templars_spoilers_for_throne/

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Scribe

[Kastor Krieg]

My Emprah, these are the depths of the grimderp.

[Sothalor]

That's sourced from the 40K Lore subreddit.

Take *anything* from that place with a massive :cuss:ing mountain of salt. It's a massive circle-jerk echo chamber of people who haven't read any of the source material taking snippets, memes, and quotes devoid of any of the context or background, and generally lacking skills such as reading comprehension and literary analysis.

[Scribe]

7 minutes ago, Sothalor said:

That's sourced from the 40K Lore subreddit.

Take *anything* from that place with a massive :cuss:ing mountain of salt. It's a massive circle-jerk echo chamber of people who haven't read any of the source material taking snippets, memes, and quotes devoid of any of the context or background, and generally lacking skills such as reading comprehension and literary analysis.

All I know, is I moved on from reading Haley several books ago. It SEEMS based on the comments, that its a major plot point of the novel, so even if there is room for interpretation, it certainly appears to have happened.

[Orange Knight]

Why have you moved on from reading Haley, exactly?

"Devastation of Baal", "The Great Work" and "Flesh and Steel: are all fantastic novels. Flesh and Steep in particular is extremely grim-dark and horrific, and has nothing to do with the main meta-plot. Easily one of the better recent novels.

Again, you dislike the direction of the main plot, evidently. Reasonable position, but you are arguing to make your viewpoint an objective fact. It is not.

Perhaps it's time to agree to disagree? You have the freedom to ignore any and all story elements in 40k. There's even a 30k game in plastic now.

[Scribe]

6 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Why have you moved on from reading Haley, exactly?

"Devastation of Baal", "The Great Work" and "Flesh and Steel: are all fantastic novels. Flesh and Steep in particular is extremely grim-dark and horrific, and has nothing to do with the main meta-plot. Easily one of the better recent novels.

Again, you dislike the direction of the main plot, evidently. Reasonable position, but you are arguing to make your viewpoint an objective fact. It is not.

Perhaps it's time to agree to disagree? You have the freedom to ignore any and all story elements in 40k. There's even a 30k game in plastic now.

For my time and $, I have better things to do really. I read several of his books, because again I wanted to be able to participate in the wider canon, because to me it matters. I found after the last one that I read, that essentially I dont think hes on par with the better authors which I buy on day one, and the direction hes pulling the lore, I dont care for either.

At that point, why continue buying his stuff?

I realize its likely unfair of me, as its tie in fiction and he's probably got GW telling him what to do, and he has the output to keep up, but it does absolutely nothing for me, and if I get burned a few times, why would I subject myself to more of it?

EDIT: Spear of the Emperor is 'new meta plot' but that? That is a great book.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Scribe

[Orange Knight]

In my opinion he is second only to Wraight and Bowden, but he is far more prolific than ADB, and his work is consistent, so I place him higher.

In my opinion you are wrong to wilfully shut yourself off from some of the best 40k fiction. But that's your right, and your opinion, and you are entitled to do so.

Your opinion, and mine, are subjective. You've argued for the last several pages as if your opinion is objective.

[Scribe]

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

In my opinion he is second only to Wraight and Bowden, but he is far more prolific than ADB, and his work is consistent, so I place him higher.

In my opinion you are wrong to wilfully shut yourself off from some of the best 40k fiction. But that's your right, and your opinion, and you are entitled to do so.

Your opinion, and mine, are subjective. You've argued for the last several pages as if your opinion is objective.

No, I have not said my opinion is objective. I have said there are things in the lore which are objective. There is a clear difference, but if you feel you can pull it together that my opinion is fact, feel free. :)

ADB, Wraight, French, are my holy trinity and its not close after that personally.