Speculative Discussion El'Jonson rumoured to return: what do you expect will happen?

[Scribe]

I'm 122 pages into The Carrion Throne, and if its not exactly what I described in regards to the functions of the Imperium so far, I dont know what could have stated it better. :D

[Guest Triszin]

I was thinking.

We know da and lion did eradication programs.

 

We will likely need those programs to prevent the Tyranid push into the sol system which I think will be the next major narrative arc.

 

My guess a huge Tyranid wave with new forms arrives and attacks the Sol system and lion comes in as warmaster and brings about some of the tech he has locked away that helped on the eradication and exctintion campaigns he committed.

 

 

I'll go further on speculation.

New branch of nids arrives and attacks terra/Sol. Dozens of new forms, even a primarch tier character nid.

 

Dante and the blood angels legion /fists are front line defenders on a losing front.

 

Da mobilize and lion mobilize the da legion to eradicate the swarm attacking Sol then setup eradication task force, legion sizes to deal with the nids.

 

Report that nids got into the ghoul stars

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Triszin

[phandaal]

5 minutes ago, Triszin said:

I was thinking.

We know da and lion did eradication programs.

 

We will likely need those programs to prevent the Tyranid push into the sol system which I think will be the next major narrative arc.

 

My guess a huge Tyranid wave with new forms arrives and attacks the Sol system and lion comes in as warmaster and brings about some of the tech he has locked away that helped on the eradication and exctintion campaigns he committed.

 

I like this idea a lot more than bringing him back for all-out war with the Fallen.

 

The Lion is a monster hunter at his core. Who better to hunt the ultimate predator?

[WrathOfTheLion]

I do like the idea of an all out war with the Fallen though. Would be quite cool to get another CSM faction, even if they're just in the base Codex: CSM.

[phandaal]

4 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

I do like the idea of an all out war with the Fallen though. Would be quite cool to get another CSM faction, even if they're just in the base Codex: CSM.

 

Take away the hunt and you take away a core part of the Dark Angels' identity. It would be like Blood Angels fixing the Red Thirst and Black Rage.

 

On the other hand, Dark Angels can show off how good they are at hunting and killing monsters all day long with no issues.

[WrathOfTheLion]

2 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

Take away the hunt and you take away a core part of the Dark Angels' identity. It would be like Blood Angels fixing the Red Thirst and Black Rage.

 

On the other hand, Dark Angels can show off how good they are at hunting and killing monsters all day long with no issues.

Fair enough. I do like the idea of monster hunting some nids too. A corrupted Luther and Marbas does sound fun to me, but I'm not partial if they do either of those routes.

[Bryan Blaire]

The “Hunt for the Fallen” and the monster hunting aspect are really similar - both hunts, both things seen as monsters by the Dark Angels… Even if they had a huge war against the Fallen, it doesn’t mean it has to be “all the Fallen” unless GW specifically makes that point (which they shouldn’t, leave it a question… “Are more Fallen going to show up at later times?” should always hang over the DA).

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

What I expect to happen, in memetastic format 

 

Lion wakes up
Guilliman: The empire and the galaxy is , youre warmaster now, I need to logistics.

Lion: bet

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There are some rumors recent that Dorn will come back.

[Scribe]

10 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

There are some rumors recent that Dorn will come back.

 

Why bother, Lion next, then just jump straight to the God-Emperor at this rate.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

I'm not a Dark Angels scholar but my general understanding of their appeal is that there is some ambiguity about who were the traitors and who were the loyalists in the heresy, with the implication that maybe the Lion wasn't on the Imperial side? 

 

Wouldn't bringing him back cause some problems for that chapter mystery staying a mystery? 

 

Also wasn't there that video a few years ago with a bunch of model spoilers where they had Corax on a poster with some quote like "have you seen this primarch"? 

 

Was there any indication other than rumors that the Lion is coming back?  Like some sort of straightforward hint from GW like the Corax hint? 

 

Sorry I skimmed the thread for these answers, apologies if I missed them!

[WrathOfTheLion]

The new terrain box for boarding actions has the Dark Angel symbol as part of the campaign symbol, so it's at least circumstantial that they'll be prevalent.

[Bryan Blaire]

19 minutes ago, Inquisitor Eisenhorn said:

I'm not a Dark Angels scholar but my general understanding of their appeal is that there is some ambiguity about who were the traitors and who were the loyalists in the heresy, with the implication that maybe the Lion wasn't on the Imperial side? 

 

Wouldn't bringing him back cause some problems for that chapter mystery staying a mystery? 

 

I would say their general appeal goes deeper than that surface implication.

 

While some like to try and continue on the “DA/Lion were traitors” thing, it was pretty firmly put to rest for me and others with the Horus Heresy books (as opposed to a single book by someone writing from a very untrustworthy narrator point of view) that it’s not an issue of them being traitors and the Fallen possibly being loyalists.  Instead, it’s the lengths they have gone to with their cover-ups, plotting, and general mayhem, which is also gotten up to by Inquisitors, so really, it’s all a standard Tuesday in the Imperium.  They have abandoned battle brothers in the midst of battle though, slipping away to follow up on rumors of the Fallen, and that is decidedly unsavory behavior, but other than that, the actions the Dark Angels have taken to cover up the Fallen isn’t any farther than Inquisitors and the Grey Knights have taken.  They have more recently taken additional unsavory behavior in using xenos to eliminate a portion of the Unforgiven who had been infected with a Nurgle plague (Nurgle seems to plague the DA/Unforgiven in general given the events of the Caliban trilogy).

 

They definitely have an obsession, and pursue it above all else as a Chapter/the Unforgiven, even if that obsession is largely unknown to the greater Chapter/Unforgiven members - so the Hunt aspect of the Dark Angels is always in effect, and mirrors Lion El’Jonson’s obsession with the hunt to destroy all the Great Beasts of Caliban, and the “keeping to the shadows to do their work”/“dirty deeds done dirt cheap” to deal with that obsession are much larger draws to me for the faction than the “Hur dee dur, DA=Traitors” nonsense followed because of the word of one of the traitors (who was delusionally thinking he’d been the good guy).

Edited October 28, 2022 by Bryan Blaire

[Scribe]

51 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Instead, it’s the lengths they have gone to with their cover-ups, plotting, and general mayhem, which is also gotten up to by Inquisitors, so really, it’s all a standard Tuesday in the Imperium.  They have abandoned battle brothers in the midst of battle though, slipping away to follow up on rumors of the Fallen, and that is decidedly unsavory behavior, but other than that, the actions the Dark Angels have taken to cover up the Fallen isn’t any farther than Inquisitors and the Grey Knights have taken.  They have more recently taken additional unsavory behavior in using xenos to eliminate a portion of the Unforgiven who had been infected with a Nurgle plague (Nurgle seems to plague the DA/Unforgiven in general given the events of the Caliban trilogy).

 

The Luther, First of the Fallen book, really makes this clear. My favourite Thorpe offering actually.

 

The issue is, the DA are not on the level of Inquisitors or GK as far as carte blanche, and that is where they are going to feel a bit more 'at risk' of their behavior getting out to the wider Imperium.

 

You are of course correct though, standard Tuesday in the Imperium, internal disorder, betrayal, etc etc. ;)

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor Eisenhorn said:

I'm not a Dark Angels scholar but my general understanding of their appeal is that there is some ambiguity about who were the traitors and who were the loyalists in the heresy, with the implication that maybe the Lion wasn't on the Imperial side? 

 

There has never been any ambiguity. The Lion has always been on the side of the Emperor.

 

There are some stories about the Fallen that lean hard on "what if bad actually good????" Thanks to this groundbreaking and unique take, a lot of people get confused as to where the non-traitor Dark Angels stood. That, and people who get their lore from memes always enjoy Dark Angels = Chaos jokes.

 

In terms of non-Heresy lore, Dark Angels have always been fanatically loyal to the Emperor, the Lion, and the Imperium but also fanatically devoted to their hunt for the Fallen. They also take great pains to conduct themselves in such a way as to never have their loyalty questioned, but have to sometimes go against that if it means catching one of the Fallen or keeping their secret shame hidden.

 

That dichotomy makes them interesting, but it is not meant to be confused with actual traitorous activity.

[Cactus]

Another part of it is that all of this mystery, deception and murder is for no good reason. If they had been honest about Caliban at the time - some of our guys went bad, we had to destroy our world and lost our Primarch - so what? Traitors, destroyed worlds and dead Primarchs were in fashion back then. The details would have been suppressed and mythologised along with everything else about the Heresy. Later, when the first Fallen survivors began to appear they would just be more perfidious traitors to be exterminated, no more special than the Black Legion or Night Lords.

 

But they didn't. Their insularity and compulsion to keep secrets has trapped the Dark Angels in a web of lies more tightly than even Alpharius could. The cover up has become worse than the initial act, and revelation now would be devastating to one of the Imperium's strongest and most zealous chapters. So they continue to lie to themselves and the Imperium, so far down the road from truth that they can never go back.

 

It's an epic tragedy and that's the appeal of the Dark Angels. That, and they lean really hard into the medieval gothic aspect of 40k's visual style.

 

That's also why I think the return of the Lion will be a narrative disaster. He knows the truth and for nearly 30 years the truth has been built up to be the Dark Angels' mortal weakness and the only thing they fear. I can't see a satisfying way to reconcile that without evolving the Dark Angels into something new. Also the Fallen have had a disproportionate amount of time in the spotlight and I'm loathe to give them more, particularly in a *spits* advancing storyline.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Insertion of Dorn versus the Lion benefits from being much cleaner to implement.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Since when has the truth mattered in the 40k universe? Remember the tagline of the Inquisition:

 

"Innocence proves nothing."

[phandaal]

42 minutes ago, Cactus said:

That's also why I think the return of the Lion will be a narrative disaster. He knows the truth and for nearly 30 years the truth has been built up to be the Dark Angels' mortal weakness and the only thing they fear. I can't see a satisfying way to reconcile that without evolving the Dark Angels into something new. Also the Fallen have had a disproportionate amount of time in the spotlight and I'm loathe to give them more, particularly in a *spits* advancing storyline.

 

Yeah. This one is very easy to royally screw up.

[Scribe]

16 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Insertion of Dorn versus the Lion benefits from being much cleaner to implement.

 

He went down in the dark, let him stay dead. 

[Slave to Darkness]

On 10/28/2022 at 5:52 PM, Bryan Blaire said:

The “Hunt for the Fallen” and the monster hunting aspect are really similar - both hunts, both things seen as monsters by the Dark Angels… Even if they had a huge war against the Fallen, it doesn’t mean it has to be “all the Fallen” unless GW specifically makes that point (which they shouldn’t, leave it a question… “Are more Fallen going to show up at later times?” should always hang over the DA).

Well they did say the fallen were scattered through time and space, so they could keep the fallen going as long as they want to. 

 

What if some went back in time? They could kill off the Lion or cause some other wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff. 

[phandaal]

58 minutes ago, Slave to Darkness said:

What if some went back in time? They could kill off the Lion or cause some other wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff. 

 

Gav Thorpe already retconned the destruction of Caliban to be caused by Azrael accidentally sending a warp storm back in time. Hard to get much worse than that, so why not?

 

 

[Slave to Darkness]

3 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

Gav Thorpe already retconned the destruction of Caliban to be caused by Azrael accidentally sending a warp storm back in time. Hard to get much worse than that, so why not?

 

 

Really?? Why do they let him write books??

[jaxom]

 

1 hour ago, phandaal said:

 

Gav Thorpe already retconned the destruction of Caliban to be caused by Azrael accidentally sending a warp storm back in time. Hard to get much worse than that, so why not?

 

 

 

Minor correction: Tchulcua (or however the hell it's spelled) kind of manipulated the modern Dark Angels into being at the right time and place so it could core through space-time to reach it's other half (which was reaching out to it). It's other half having been buried on Caliban and lost to warp corruption. It was still a bit of a stretch.

 

Patrick meme:

 

Thorpe: "You know how the Dark Angels legion found an intelligent artifact that was a portion of how the Old Ones tunneled through/beneath the Warp to create the Webway?"

Patrick: "Yep"

Thorpe: "And how 'portion' implies there are other parts of the intelligent artifact?"

Patrick: "Yep."

Thorpe: "And you know how there's a corrupting influence in the dark forests of Caliban?"

Patrick: "Yep."

Thorpe: "The corrupting influence on Caliban must be part of the intelligent artifact, because everything has to be connected."

Patrick: "Nope"

 

On 10/28/2022 at 12:31 PM, phandaal said:

Take away the hunt and you take away a core part of the Dark Angels' identity.

 

On 10/28/2022 at 6:16 PM, phandaal said:

 

There has never been any ambiguity. The Lion has always been on the side of the Emperor.

 

There are some stories about the Fallen that lean hard on "what if bad actually good????" Thanks to this groundbreaking and unique take, a lot of people get confused as to where the non-traitor Dark Angels stood. That, and people who get their lore from memes always enjoy Dark Angels = Chaos jokes.

 

Buddy, I've been dying on this hill since Angels of Darkness came out and it's what drove me away from the Dark Angels being the faction for me. Thorpe always was blunt in interviews that part of the point of AoD was to get people thinking about the Dark Angels outside the context of the Fallen, and that Astelan was just trolling Boreas (similar to the short story The Black Pearl where a Fallen tells an Interrogator-Chaplain where to find the father of the Dark Angels' sword, but it's actually Luthor's sword). Since then, however, the Black Library and Games Workshop double-downed on the Fallen. There are almost no Dark Angel stories/novels that don't somehow include the Fallen even when absolutely unnecessary to the plot (looking at you, Eye of Ezekial). There's been little to no characterization that doesn't revolve around the Hunt even though the majority of the Chapter wouldn't know about it. The biggest sin, in my mind, was taking all the previous non-Hunt characterization and using it for the Imperial Fists and Black Templars. That left the Dark Angels with only the Hunt and they've suffered for it ever since. Even the Horus Heresy stuff has been impacted by all this. The best description of the Dark Angels, as the Knights of Caliban, is in the LEMAN RUSS primarch novella! The best description in of their creed is in the SIGISMUND Templar audiobook! All their own stuff? Sssseeeecreeeeets and mysssssssteries and paaaaaarrrrranoia.

 

Ahem. That is to say, I don't like how the Dark Angels have been handled for almost twenty years, and leaving that faction behind has been good for my blood pressure.

[phandaal]

2 hours ago, Slave to Darkness said:

Really?? Why do they let him write books??

 

Oh yes. It is one of those things that is so dumb, and so embarrassing, that you almost have trouble believing anyone allowed it.

 

15 minutes ago, jaxom said:

Minor correction: Tchulcua (or however the hell it's spelled) kind of manipulated the modern Dark Angels into being at the right time and place so it could core through space-time to reach it's other half (which was reaching out to it). It's other half having been buried on Caliban and lost to warp corruption. It was still a bit of a stretch.

 

Yep, Chalupa was responsible in the end. So bad. I just pretend it never happened.

 

19 minutes ago, jaxom said:

The biggest sin, in my mind, was taking all the previous non-Hunt characterization and using it for the Imperial Fists and Black Templars. That left the Dark Angels with only the Hunt and they've suffered for it ever since. Even the Horus Heresy stuff has been impacted by all this. The best description of the Dark Angels, as the Knights of Caliban, is in the LEMAN RUSS primarch novella! The best description in of their creed is in the SIGISMUND Templar audiobook! All their own stuff? Sssseeeecreeeeets and mysssssssteries and paaaaaarrrrranoia.

 

Crazy thing is, the lore that GW themselves writes points out that Dark Angels spend the vast majority of their time doing normal Space Marine things.

 

That is part of why I like the Lion's primarch novel. Not a whiff of the Fallen, just Dark Angels being cool monster hunter knights.