Rhinos and carrying durable units worth it?

[arnesh88]

What is the general consensus with rhinos and carrying durable units? For example, are they worth it to carry a unit with 2 Wounds each and a 2+ save? Seems like the risk for pinning due to the transport being destroyed may not be worth it? I know I can maybe have them driving behind durable vehicles for cover, but at that point, is it more worth it for them to just run behind the vehicles and use the 35+ points elsewhere? There’s also the risk of victory points lost in certain missions

[suxdavide]

Vehicles explosions (and rhinos tend to do so) are quite a risky situation for high valuable units.

That said I tend to use mor deythan in rhinos, just mind that I'm just doing so in order to get that extra mile during an alpha strike, I would not rely on a rhino for shielding some units I'm not ready to loose.

[ShadowCore67]

I would probably only place those types of units in rhinos if I knew I needed to get them across the field faster for whatever reason.

[arnesh88]

Thanks suxdavide and ShadowCore67. The unit I'm debating on using them for are Pyroclasts for a Covenant of Fire army. I currently have my "casual" army basically assembled and painted (outside of minor details and decals) and my pyroclast unit has a rhino transport, so I'm expanding the army to have a more "competitive" option if I encounter players that want that type of game or if I enter a competition. Based on your feedback, my options are likely to either footslog them, or land raider proteus for transport, though I'm considering allying in White Scars to have their Stormseer give them Fleet(2/4).

[Lord Krungharr]

I think if you have another wing-man type of unit to distract and threaten running beside the rhino w valuable dudes then they can work just fine.  The Evade reaction is very good for that too.  Land Raiders are great but can also get wrecked or explode, and cost 8-10 times a rhino points don't they?

For example, they know you have the Pyroclasts but will they target them or the melta/las speeders running beside or in front of them?  Usually they'll need to take out the more immediate threat.  Not sure if there is a power for it, but perhaps an Esoterist could give the rhino some good Shrouding buffs or something?  Haven't used any psykers yet (not sure if the IW, IH, or RG used them much).

[arnesh88]

5 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I think if you have another wing-man type of unit to distract and threaten running beside the rhino w valuable dudes then they can work just fine.  The Evade reaction is very good for that too.  Land Raiders are great but can also get wrecked or explode, and cost 8-10 times a rhino points don't they?

For example, they know you have the Pyroclasts but will they target them or the melta/las speeders running beside or in front of them?  Usually they'll need to take out the more immediate threat.  Not sure if there is a power for it, but perhaps an Esoterist could give the rhino some good Shrouding buffs or something?  Haven't used any psykers yet (not sure if the IW, IH, or RG used them much).

The original thought was that the land raiders provided a bit more protection and speed, plus bringing lascannons and being almost as tough as a contemptor dread (almost). But I think you're right; unless there are other threats for the opponent to prioritize, the pyroclasts will just be focus-fired on. I'll have to consider that...

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Rhinos are good to protect from pinning attacks in turn one, followed by using them as mobile cover to negate overwatch or reduce the number of models that can be picked up from wound allocation.

I run a couple different units in rhinos, despoilers probably benefit the most for a turn 2-3 charge support squads and tacticals are natural choices also. The main thing you want to do is line up your rhino horizontally to block LoS on the unit you wish to charge, or you can ram the unit to do the same thing. This is especially effective against shooty units. This also worka for deepstrikie assault and blocking interceptor! You need a few Rhinos to pull this off, however. It works extremely well and has been a strong core for my more aggressive lists. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

23 hours ago, arnesh88 said:

Thanks suxdavide and ShadowCore67. The unit I'm debating on using them for are Pyroclasts for a Covenant of Fire army. I currently have my "casual" army basically assembled and painted (outside of minor details and decals) and my pyroclast unit has a rhino transport, so I'm expanding the army to have a more "competitive" option if I encounter players that want that type of game or if I enter a competition. Based on your feedback, my options are likely to either footslog them, or land raider proteus for transport, though I'm considering allying in White Scars to have their Stormseer give them Fleet(2/4).

Imo you want to put pyros in a rhino, even risking the explosion causing instant death. Even with a full 10 you only average 1.4 failed saves, which isn't that bad.

One of the issues pyros had in 1st was being locked to a land raider for a transport, making it very hard to take them en-masse. The rhino really saves a lot of points, and gets your bricks of units into position to burn things down. You can now do annoying moves like movement reaction the most vulnerable squad back into their rhino, while the other one can return fire and/or overwatch.

[arnesh88]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Imo you want to put pyros in a rhino, even risking the explosion causing instant death. Even with a full 10 you only average 1.4 failed saves, which isn't that bad.

One of the issues pyros had in 1st was being locked to a land raider for a transport, making it very hard to take them en-masse. The rhino really saves a lot of points, and gets your bricks of units into position to burn things down. You can now do annoying moves like movement reaction the most vulnerable squad back into their rhino, while the other one can return fire and/or overwatch.

Also good points, I forgot about the FAQ on Movement Reactions. I also forgot about last edition them not having Rhinos as an option, but that was because even though I had a squad, they were......not good at all. They got such a glow up this edition from what they were last.

Would you recommend having them using other heavy vehicles to block line of sight to them? Or just try to move from one terrain to the next to give cover saves?

[SkimaskMohawk]

29 minutes ago, arnesh88 said:

Would you recommend having them using other heavy vehicles to block line of sight to them? Or just try to move from one terrain to the next to give cover saves?

It kind of depends on the plan for them. I envision the whole point of the salamanders special units to be really durable units that force overcommitment or otherwise win through attrition. Things like multi-wounds, it will not die, legion trait, and invul only really matter if they're taking fire (or not taking it, if the defensive stats are too intimidating to even prompt shooting). I might be totally off the mark; salamanders have always felt tricky to pin down on their game plan. But, assuming I'm not, maybe screen them from just the stuff that doesn't activate their defensive rules (like lascannons, maybe snipers since pinning is annoying); let the other weapons be able to target them while they soak shots. Even 10 meltas only average 3 dead pyros, while 20 plasma shots only get 1.5 (if you bring an apothecary).

[arnesh88]

36 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

It kind of depends on the plan for them. I envision the whole point of the salamanders special units to be really durable units that force overcommitment or otherwise win through attrition. Things like multi-wounds, it will not die, legion trait, and invul only really matter if they're taking fire (or not taking it, if the defensive stats are too intimidating to even prompt shooting). I might be totally off the mark; salamanders have always felt tricky to pin down on their game plan. But, assuming I'm not, maybe screen them from just the stuff that doesn't activate their defensive rules (like lascannons, maybe snipers since pinning is annoying); let the other weapons be able to target them while they soak shots. Even 10 meltas only average 3 dead pyros, while 20 plasma shots only get 1.5 (if you bring an apothecary).

They are a difficult army to pin down on what their overall strategy is. From my understanding, they’re intended to be good at holding midfield objectives and to be strong vs assault based armies. They have strong overwatch weapons and warlord traits/rites of war/Vulkan’s army wide stubborn to protect from morale problems that would shut down those reactions. They also have their Legion Reaction that counterpunches an assault or helps hold their ground. As you pointed out, the Dragonscale Shields and IWND helps with enhancing durable units, but against the weapons that they don’t have natural defenses against, it’s best to use transports to block line of sight and force them to come to you.

Unfortunately, the missions in the book favors killing over objectives, so there have been some games I’ve played where the transports gave up too many VP to overcome. But that’s a topic for another post…

[SkimaskMohawk]

23 minutes ago, arnesh88 said:

They are a difficult army to pin down on what their overall strategy is. From my understanding, they’re intended to be good at holding midfield objectives and to be strong vs assault based armies. They have strong overwatch weapons and warlord traits/rites of war/Vulkan’s army wide stubborn to protect from morale problems that would shut down those reactions. They also have their Legion Reaction that counterpunches an assault or helps hold their ground. As you pointed out, the Dragonscale Shields and IWND helps with enhancing durable units, but against the weapons that they don’t have natural defenses against, it’s best to use transports to block line of sight and force them to come to you.

Unfortunately, the missions in the book favors killing over objectives, so there have been some games I’ve played where the transports gave up too many VP to overcome. But that’s a topic for another post…

Yea that basically tracks with what I was thinking, with the being durable and tanking charges on their special units, holding with high ld and stubborn, and counter charging with a big damage dealer like fire brakes or contemptors. 

And ya, the kill point secondaries can really skew the missions. It's just been that way since 2015 unfortunately; the 6th and 7th edition missions were just better.