What do we need in 10:ed?

[Ulfast]

I want to start and say that I like our codex very much. I think it´s a fun codex with lot of deaphts in it. But I do think it´s a little bit sad that we have so few options. We could really need more units to use. but my questions to you are, what do we need and would be intersting to use? Here is some of my suggestions:

 

1. A pure flyer. Chaos don´t have one and it would be fun to have one, specially for Thousand sons.

2. A unique heavy option. Some thing like a"silver tower. Perhaps looking similiar to a obelix with a nice good cannon etc.

3. A close combat unit. Pure close combat, perhaps some kind of terminators or something similiar. 

4. A tzaangor war machine of some kind. Pure 40k, not fantasy one.

 

Do you have any more ideas?

[Ahzek451]

+1 to overall balance. Can't complain about the overall feel to it, not too powerful, not to weak. Anything else from me is more of a nitpick such as the typical inbalance of of some cults/relics/traits competing with one another(as it does in most books). I would just want some tweeks to some of the psychic powers, magnus, and tzaangors. 

I would be shocked if we don't receive the firelord/doomwing as a flyer at some point(for you EPIC40k fans). There is a trend for GW to pull from older models and lore for some of the new god-dedicated legions and it doesn't take much to look at death guard to notice this. The only reason we have mauler/forgefiends, defilers, and heldrakes is because GW has not provided more t.sons specific units yet. Take a look at death guard and you will see the lack of some daemon engines because GW provided the crawler and blight drone. I think it's only a matter of time. 

It's easy to simply want a 40k version of whatever we had during the heresy, but I would appreciate some magical bots and the typical request for a psychic dread. 

Will echo a desire to see some kind of armored and heavily armed rubric squad with all soulreapers, heavy warpflamers and/or some kind of new heavy psychic ranged gun. 

[Ahzek451]

This thread had me thinking how long it has been since the current version of t.sons were initially released. It's been about 6 years now, come on GW give us the other half of our army

[Ulfast]

The idea about some psyhic robots or dreadnought is a good one and would be fun to have. I totally agree with you Ahzek451 that we really need some more unit to flesh out the army, give us more option etc. Most TS seems to own everything right now so not any will to spend money as we don´t have any nuit to buy more. If GW wants our money, they should give us two-three new units as I belive that most TS player would jump and buy all of that (and perhaps both one or two extra).

[Xenith]

On 10/31/2022 at 11:45 AM, Ulfast said:

I like our codex very much. I think it´s a fun codex with lot of deaphts in it.

 

I'm the opposite here, I love the army, but feel the codex was a rushed mess with poor internal balance and a few useful gimmicks. In terms of rushed, it's half the size of similar other codexes, is missing ost of the lore from the 8th ed book, and doesnt even have painted versions of all units for the datasheets. 

 

What I'd like to see is:

• Internally balanced cults: Currently we have 2 that are decent, 1 that is maybe ok, and 6 that are poor. It seems like taking anything other than time or duplicity you're deliberately hamstringing yourself.
• Actually thought out units: SoT's, logically should have M6 or a 4++. Back in 8th, tartaros was normal move [of 6"] and a 6++, cataphractii was -1"M and a 4++. Thousand Sons were M5, so the tartaros armoured SOT terms were M5, being the normal move for rubrics, but they gained a 5++ from the army rules. Death guard were also M5, but cataphractii armoured blightlords were M4 with the 4++ save, having both pro and con of Cata plate. In 9th ed, Blightlords have lost the M penalty of Cataphractii and retained the 4++, gaining best best bits of cataphractii and tartaros armour. Scarabs however have received a M penalty to 5" and have the 6++ from the armour (and also a 5++ from the army rule) thereby having both the drawbacks of tartaros and cataphractii, and none of the benefits. Basically all terminators went to normal move for the army and a 5++, however the blight lords randomly kept the 4++. 
• External balance: Currently some CSM powers are just flat out better than Thousand Sons, making CSM better, mre killy psykers - e.g. gift of chaos. We have to roll over toughness to cause D3+3MW's, CSM just do a straight D3 mortals which hit nearby units on a 4+. Bolt of change [daemons] is a powered up Tzeentches Firestorm that goes off on a 7+ instead of a 9+, then causes extra mortals, killing 6 1W models on average. 
• More Rubric units - Low hanging fruit is a Heresy style weapons pack - it would be very easy to have a rubric havoc squad. 

[The Yncarne]

I don’t think more units per-se are needed. My harlequins only have 8 units yet are fun to play due to their rules and internal balance. I feel like the Sons are just a bunch of data sheets with little thought to how they work together. 
 

I would like to see the rules for Infernal Master reworked. It’s just too much mental work for a single model to figure out how to use these rules in harmony with the psychic phase. 
 

id like to see the cults be more internally balanced (not by nerfing Time or Duplicity) to provide strengths in different game phases. 
 

Finally, I’d like to see a studio champion for the army. It’s the only way they’ll get the attention they need. 

[Ulfast]

It´s true that we really need some more options, both in cults and units. Every build more or less is the same right now. A couple of sorcerer, 4-5 rubrics and 1-2 units of terminators with something extra on the side. Good powerful armies that can win but so boring. For an army of the god of change, we really are just one build at the moment.

[Xenith]

I'd always thought that a 40k equivalent of endless spells would be a great addition to the Thousand Sons list. I mean, you could just take the models straight from AoS like the goats, then give them strong effects - like the TS actually beating their opponents with sorcery, instead of terminators and bolters like they are now. 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Xenith

[Malakithe]

I would like to see some of the general CSM units ported over to the god-focused factions

[Special Officer Doofy]

2 hours ago, Malakithe said:

I would like to see some of the general CSM units ported over to the god-focused factions

 

As a DG player we got spoiled compared to you guys but something I think everyone would like is old units with a new model and maybe a mark system like a helbrute and rhino. TS helbrute (Tzeentch) should be able to cast/deny and maybe DG one (nurgle) gets extra toughness or a FNP. TS rhino's get 5++ don't they? DG ones don't get our -1D and get shot with all the 2D weapons on T1 and there is no point in bringing them. Plus helbrute and rhino models are smaller and dated compared to the new scale marines I feel. I imagine they could sell well with new fun rules making CSM, TS, DG and our new seperate codex brother WE want to take them.

[Ahzek451]

Whatever additional units we get, I can see similar athetics, but would have to go the other direction on porting the same units. I think this is the beating heart and soul of what makes chaos and the god-legions what they are, and seperate from their loyalist kin. Space marines sharing from the same pool of units makes sense. It is not their asthetic to be wildly divergent. But losing all the restraints and strict adherence to imperial/codex dogma is what chaos is. The affect of this freedom over 10,000 years coupled with embracing a specfic chaos god should result in very divergent factions. I beleive chaos marines should share from the same pool of daemonic war machines and units, but the god-legions, being so soley dedicated to one chaos god should have their own brand of toys seperate from chaos undivided. This is clearly a wish of mine, but I beleive GW is on this path as well. The t.sons were the first experimental run of finally splitting off the god-legions into unique factions. I don't think GW was fully committed at the time(being the first one), and that is why we have few unique choices. But take note of what happened with Death Guard. It was clear GW decided to go all-in. Providing more unique vehicles and units than the t.sons, based on old lore and old miniatures. Note DG do still have access to things like the defilerbut because they have things like the plagueburst tank, blight hauler, and drones, they have taken away things like the dinobots and heldrake. An indication to me that GW wants the god legions to be unique. 

I think it's as simple as an early design choice not to put as much resources into our pool of unique choices being the first legion and all. GW not fully committed at the time but had a change of heart when working on DG. And since nothing was made on the first wave, they had to fill out our book with something, so we got the heldrake and dinobots. I'm willing to bet that GW will/currently is cooking up a 2nd wave for us. Like DG, there are too many units to pick from from old lore and EPIC to modernize and make the faction more unique in their sole dedication to one chaos god. Doomwings/firelord, silver tower splinters, psychic walkers, robots, etc. I think it's only a matter of time. IMHO the only thing we should really share amongst all chaos legions is the classic land raider, rhino, vindicator, and predator tank(not counting FW units). Which also feels fitting. Chaos legions that still have access to the same weaponry from the HH + new daemonic mechanical constructs makes us more unique as a faction vs. primaris space marines. 

In short: as someone who was a t.sons fan growing up from 2nd ed. to now, one can make a pretty solid geuss at what GW is trying to do. Back them we had a lot in common with our marine kin. Same vehicles, no unique daemonic engines. Basically the biggest thing that stood us apart was access to daemons. From my perspective, it is GW's intent to make chaos marines and the god legions very much unique from one another. 

Patiently waiting for the unique toys

[Xenith]

1 hour ago, Ahzek451 said:

And since nothing was made on the first wave, they had to fill out our book with something, so we got the heldrake and dinobots. I'm willing to bet that GW will/currently is cooking up a 2nd wave for us. Like DG, there are too many units to pick from from old lore and EPIC to modernize and make the faction more unique in their sole dedication to one chaos god. Doomwings/firelord, silver tower splinters, psychic walkers, robots, etc. I think it's only a matter of time.

 

My only concern is that adding new unique units in, would see existing shared daemon engines removed, and that's not something GW would want to do to more players - I think DG already had theirs removed? They'd end up removing 1/3 of the TS codex. 

 

I think we can also think outside the box a little bit - we've seen the CSM get weird units like the coven, and regenning cultists, I think some kind of cabal like 3 model unit might be cool, also access to possessed as we possess other marines instead of our own, same way we steal people to put into hellbrutes. 

 

A Thousand Sons pattern psychic automata/hellbrute would be low hanging fruit, and loved by all. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

3 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

My only concern is that adding new unique units in, would see existing shared daemon engines removed, and that's not something GW would want to do to more players - I think DG already had theirs removed? They'd end up removing 1/3 of the TS codex. 

 

I think we can also think outside the box a little bit - we've seen the CSM get weird units like the coven, and regenning cultists, I think some kind of cabal like 3 model unit might be cool, also access to possessed as we possess other marines instead of our own, same way we steal people to put into hellbrutes. 

 

A Thousand Sons pattern psychic automata/hellbrute would be low hanging fruit, and loved by all. 

 

DG has more legion specific units but doesn't have access to the heldrake, vindicator, forgefiend and Maulerfiend. I personally am in the party of not wanting to port everything over to the cult Legions, that way it gives the other 5 Legions / warbands a feeling of uniqueness. But the things ported over like rhino's and helbrutes need new kits and some flavor rules. I understand firstborn are most likely not going to be getting new kits but that shouldn't mean they don't redo the chaos versions down the road. I've seen some chaos guys that don't like Daemon engines and want new Predators and land Raider models down the road (and maybe not :cuss: rules to go with them haha). 

 

They gave blood angels a psychic dreadnaught and it's cool, I want to see some spell slinging TS ones!

[Ahzek451]

3 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

My only concern is that adding new unique units in, would see existing shared daemon engines removed, and that's not something GW would want to do to more players - I think DG already had theirs removed? They'd end up removing 1/3 of the TS codex. 

 

I think we can also think outside the box a little bit - we've seen the CSM get weird units like the coven, and regenning cultists, I think some kind of cabal like 3 model unit might be cool, also access to possessed as we possess other marines instead of our own, same way we steal people to put into hellbrutes. 

 

A Thousand Sons pattern psychic automata/hellbrute would be low hanging fruit, and loved by all. 

That's what I was mentioning in my previous post. With the release of the blight drone, crawler, and plagueburst, they cut the heldrake and mauler/forgefiend. But that would be the point, removing 1/3 would be replaced by the new stuff and more.  And Ive seen lots of lovely death guard converted heldrakes as giant flies and mauler/forgefiends. So I can empathize with any potential cuts. I have a heavily converted defiler and maulerfiend, and it would suck to lose them. I don't expect it anytime soon, but based on what happend to DG, I wouldn't be suprised. Having seen many models cut in my hobby lifetime I know the pain. I geuss all I am saying is don't be surpised if new t.sons specific models boot out some of the shared daemon engines at some point. 

IMHO, I would like to see a new unit in the form non-marine psychic cultists. Entire units of them. Very fitting from a lore perspective, particularly due to recent fluff (see below). I've had tzeentch possessed back in 3.5, so I get the appeal. Personally I just like having moe unique options vs. grabbing other existing stuff. Stealing helbrutes was a fun read, but this seemed like a quick way to logically fit in helbrutes to pad the range. I would do without them, and prefer the old rubric dreads and sorcerer dreads back in the old chapter approved. 

At the end of the day GW gonna do what GW gonna do. But if the newer lore is anything to go by, the potential is certianly there. Somewhat of a spoiler:

 

Spoiler

With "recent" events, Sortiarius teleported and parked next to Prospero, Magnus has carved out a new mini empire back at his old stomping grounds. Protected by trick warp storms, he has been busy playing the pied piper and summoning many psykers. There is also mention of him transforming ruined Prospero into his new military base, showing he is expanding his forces and working on new weapons of war. 

To me, this is GW expanding t.sons as a more viable threat and setting the stage for model expansion. 

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Ahzek451

[Ahzek451]

Firstborn will eventually be butted out by the primaris, but despite this I think GW will keep the humble land raider, rhino, and predator for chaos marines. It's part of our flavor and lore. We are the same marines from the heresy using the same equipment from back then. What better way to show unique differences between chaos marines and primaris? They get the nifty new grav primaris tanks, and we hold onto the ancient machines of the heresy alongside daemon engines. Maybe GW is considering it already,  they could make upgrade kits for the new heresy vehicles being dropped to chaos them up a bit for 40k. Would increase sales and require less effort in making new models. I'm already doing this myself with the new plastic HH vehicles for 40k. 

[Paladin777]

For me a psychic dreadnaught and the dual sword unit from the heresy would be great. That's pretty much it from me. 
 

However, the realist in me thinks that we're not going to get much other than a codex until the Emperor's Children get their dex' and release. 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Paladin777

[Lucky_Lee]

On 10/31/2022 at 6:45 AM, Ulfast said:

I want to start and say that I like our codex very much. I think it´s a fun codex with lot of deaphts in it. But I do think it´s a little bit sad that we have so few options. We could really need more units to use. but my questions to you are, what do we need and would be intersting to use? Here is some of my suggestions:

 

1. A pure flyer. Chaos don´t have one and it would be fun to have one, specially for Thousand sons.

2. A unique heavy option. Some thing like a"silver tower. Perhaps looking similiar to a obelix with a nice good cannon etc.

3. A close combat unit. Pure close combat, perhaps some kind of terminators or something similiar. 

4. A tzaangor war machine of some kind. Pure 40k, not fantasy one.

 

Do you have any more ideas?

In my opinion;
1. Further development of the cults and their characters backed by model support. (Side note, If you play an army with cults and you have a unit called cultists... there should be SOME kind of interaction there.)

2. Tzaangors need a more clearly defined theme and purpose.

3. More elite and fast attack options, both units, characters, and vehicles.
 

[WrathOfTheLion]

Low hanging fruit for the vehicles would be to make Chaos vehicle upgrade sprues on the new 30k tanks. New upgrade sprue to go with the already released new predator/rhino/land raider.

 

Just updating the upgrade sprue would be nice, even if they keep it with the existing vehicle frames.

Edited December 9, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Lucky_Lee]

Just an off the cuff thought and not a complete fix but I think within our codex it would make sense. 

 

Make Terminator Sorcerers and Sorcerers an Elites choice. Get rid of the no-force org stuff.

 

Rework our maledictions so that they have a chance to do damage on a cast of 9+ or 11+. Even if it was just 1MW that would help encourage more spell variety with the amount of psykers we have. It might also help a little with our poor heavy weapons selection. 

 

Hell, just make a type of sorcerer in our Elites slot that does exactly that. Maybe a CQC specialist who can do MW when he casts maledictions. Master of Curses? Or just print it on the tin, Master of Maledictions? I mean, there's a master of executions...

 

GW needs to hire me. I tell ya. 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Lucky_Lee

[TheWarmaster]

Mutilators. 

New Defiler. 

More Daemon Engines. 

Flyer with transport. 

Whirlwind variant. 

Emperor's Children models. 

Traitor Guard. 

Dark Mech. 

 

(Edit to say: Oops, I thought this was general chaos/csm thread, didn't realise it was Thousand Sons haha. My bad!). 

Edited December 11, 2022 by TheWarmaster

[Xenith]

On 12/10/2022 at 5:54 PM, Lucky_Lee said:

just make a type of sorcerer in our Elites slot

 

This would be a great use for the elites slots! Easy to do also, adding greater variety with no additional models needing to be sculpted. 

[Mr.Bill]

Im overall happy with the current state of the book. That being said i'd like some kind of anti-tank options(god specific one), a reason to take tzanngors, a dedicated melee unit, and the ever elusive physic dread.

[Indy Techwisp]

Dedicated Melee Rubrics would be interesting, as would a Psyker Dreadnaught.
Also a Thousand Sons specific Transfer sheet with the Tzeentch Icon for the tabards included.

[Closet Skeleton]

The Thousand Sons book is mostly melee units, Tzaangors, Chaos Spawn, Scarab Occult, Enlightened, Daemon Prince, Helldrake, Helbrutes, Defilers, Maulerfiend and at least three of those are pure melee.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Closet Skeleton

[Malakithe]

I want to see Tzaangors not suck. They somehow need the Rubric treatment that lets them generate cabal points. Tzeentch possessed could be nice too