What do we need in 10:ed?

[Ahzek451]

On 11/10/2024 at 2:20 PM, The Praetorian of Inwit said:

The Thousand Sons should get new kits. A Psyker Dreadnought, an Automata of some sort at least.

 

@Ahzek451 A lot of that I think could happen.

 

I would be very surprised if the end goal for GW isn't to remove shared units from World Eaters/Thousand Sons/Death Guard. I would not be surprised to see ALL the following leave the Thousand Sons eventually:

 

Helbrute

Heldrake

Defiler

Forgefiend

Maulerfiend

Vindicator

Cultists

 

Given how much it is said that the AoS and 40k teams hate sharing miniatures I also wouldn't be surprised to see the Mutalith disappear. I actually think the Mutalith will be removed next year when the new codex drops. 

 

I would largely agree it is part of GW's model to remove shared units, I believe it was this thread I went on a bit of a rant saying it was GW's vision to make the chaos legions as separate as possible from their astartes loyalists kin and the GOD legions even further yet. In the end the only thing that chaos marines and space marines have in common would be power armour and origin. 

That being said, I would amend the list to retain the tracked vehicles(vindicator, rhino, land raider, predator) as holdovers from the heresy. The god legions would certainly end up with a respectable buffet of unique toys each legion has twisted/created over time, unique to only them. Which was even the case even all the way back in 2nd edition. But it would be neat if the only thing that all chaos marines shared(god included) was any holdovers from the heresy. Maintaining or even mutating/warping the classic tracked vehicles in their own ways as this is what they had when they escaped to the warp. Which would be fitting to mirror all the newer primaris grav vehicles. Assuming loyalists astartes eventually lose access to all the classic non-primaris first born vehicles. 

We started with the same vehicles with the difference being one had spikes and the other didn't. Now imagine a hi-tech, sleek and modernized repulser vs. a warped and twisted ancient chaos land raider infused with daemonic energies. 

Edited November 11, 2024 by Ahzek451

[LSM]

One of my secret hopes for all the Cult Legions: new vehicle upgrade sprues, specific to their aesthetics. 

[Ahzek451]

28 minutes ago, LSM said:

One of my secret hopes for all the Cult Legions: new vehicle upgrade sprues, specific to their aesthetics. 

A million times yes, I just don't have hope GW is doing this. The good news is, see a need fill a need, there are some 3d printed sources on etsy you can look for that scratches this itch. 

[Ahzek451]

Latest rumor on our new bots is and codex:

 

Springtime release. Along with WE, and DG. We get a box that comes with a unit of rubrics, SoT, exalted, and......the new robots. Come in a unit of 4.  

[Indy Techwisp]

Interesting box

[Nephaston]

A completely goat-less box? In this economy? Christmas came early.

 

4 Bots off-rip however makes me think they'll be vorax or castellax sized, perhaps ursarax sized at most. But definitely not Thanatar sized as cool as that would be.

 

Either way I'll wait with bated breath, even if it only is this one new unit and nothing else.

[Special Officer Doofy]

16 hours ago, Ahzek451 said:

Latest rumor on our new bots is and codex:

 

Springtime release. Along with WE, and DG. We get a box that comes with a unit of rubrics, SoT, exalted, and......the new robots. Come in a unit of 4.  

 

Where did you hear this from? I'm skeptical because the lack of goats makes it seem to good to be true haha.

 

After 12 years of trying to get my best friend into the hobby he finally is joining and wanted to play thousand sons. Someone owed me half a box and I got the hexfire half for him for free, and this box you speak of sounds like the perfect pairing with it to start a thousand sons army.

[Tokugawa]

Rules and economic wise, it possibly is 2 boxes of 2 models each, not 1 box of 4 models.

[Ahzek451]

7 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

Where did you hear this from? I'm skeptical because the lack of goats makes it seem to good to be true haha.

 

After 12 years of trying to get my best friend into the hobby he finally is joining and wanted to play thousand sons. Someone owed me half a box and I got the hexfire half for him for free, and this box you speak of sounds like the perfect pairing with it to start a thousand sons army.

Whispers from a T.sons channel that have decently reliable connection at GW. Which means it could totally be bunk. 
EDIT: looks like valrak is saying the same thing. Take it for what its worth. 

@Nephaston Based solely on the paint job of the rumor mill on the leg, and because GW pretty much paints consistently the same way when it comes to edge highlighting, weather chipping, etc., one can deduce the rough size of said leg. I would bet that the new unit sits somewhere between vorax and thallax. 

Speculation on unit's purpose:
-We know this unit will be an answer to psychic-dampening effects, a sort of go-to for T.sons when they have to deal with things like the Pariah nexus. The question will be if this manifests as some sort of rule on the tabletop.....or they simply just end up being a new non-psyker unit for us as another tool in the tool bag. 

-I get the impression it might be a double jointed leg, which means it could be a unit that won't be as slow as rubrics.

-It will be partly daemonic, whatever that means(invulnerable save?)

-I am going out on the limb(pun included) and saying there are 2 rumor engines tied to this unit. The robotic claw image has the same weather chipping as the leg. The back of the claw looks like it has an armor plate on it, just out of view and might have more of the T.sons blue and yellow banding the leg armor has. And so if that is the case, this thing will be suited for combat in some capacity. 

-Ranged weapons? probably, would be cool to see it rocking x2 soulreaper cannons. Frankly I would love to see a new unique ranged weapon for us that is NOT a warpflamer, inferno bolts, or soulreaper. 

I think this new unit is all we are getting. A little bit disappointing that GW has not heard the pleas for a new dreadnought. Maybe next time. 
 

Edited January 28 by Ahzek451

[Ahzek451]

The last post got my speculation engine revving, and I feel its good to breath some life in the T.sons section. 

It seems pretty clear daemons are joining the crew proper(I have no clue if this means the Daemon codex will remain and units will exist in multiple books). 

This will open a whole new door on how this army operates. I can't imagine GW not, at a minimum tweaking a few profiles to have this make sense. My question will how keywords and army/unit abilities will pan out. Will it mean daemons can share some T.son abilities? Or all? Will the entire roster of Tzeentch daemons be present? How will GW change things to reduce redundancy? Will cabal points change? I can't imagine daemon units joining mortal and vis-versa. Either way I am absolutely stoked. I started my path to Tzeentch early on when the only real difference between chaos marines and space marines were spikes and the ability to summon daemons. Bringing Tzeentch daemons in is going back to the roots and makes all kinds of sense. A simple google image search will even show a lot of modern T.sons artwork with rubrics marching alongside horros and/or screamers. 

I am hoping Magnus will no longer be an auto-include. Giving a chance for mortal leaders or even a lord of change a chance to lead. If possible, I will be rebuilding my first T.sons army which was basically a sorcerer lord with a lord of change. 

I don't see us losing anything this book, looks like the emp. children retain access to all the classic daemon engines and tanks. 

Despite the reputation tzaangors have, I have always seen them a welcome addition to the army. Every cult army has its mortal chaffe from the lore, I just hope that GW finds a way to make them work, and not be overshadowed by the inclusion of daemons. If anything, maybe the humble cultists will remain unpopular. So many troops to pick from, rubrics, horrors, tzaangor, cultists. 

What do you guys hope for or have thoughts on?

 

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

I actually quite like Tzaangors too, though I understand people's frustration as they are an AoS unit first. To be honest I'd like to see GW do Tzaangor kits unique to 40k and expand the Tzaangor range as whole.  

 

Back on topic; I'm hoping they do a good job rules wise of giving people ways of playing purely Daemons effectively and purely Thousand Sons effectively. I don't want TS to be forced into taking Daemons to be competitive and Daemon players, having lost their own codex should still be able to play a Daemon list without needing TS units. 

 

I'm also hoping they have some good Detachments. I'd like to see Magnus and Ahriman get their own Detachments and one just for Daemons. 

 

Given the Infernal Master has Screamers as part of his miniature it would make sense rules wise for him to get some sort of interaction with them. 

 

Model wise there is a lot TS could and should get but seeing as GW really doesn't seem to care about TS (which is odd s I understand the Ahriman series is quite successful by BL standards) I hope this robot thing doesn't suck. Personally I find GW can be hit and miss with Chaos and I prefer the cleaner look TS have compared to the other legions which have mouths, tentacles and horns everywhere. 

 

Maybe in 11th GW will stop being scumbags and give TS: Psyker Dreadnought, Exalted Sorcerer in Terminator Armour, Melee/Havoc Rubrics, a proper Daemon Engine or two like DG have. 

[Indy Techwisp]

15 minutes ago, The Praetorian of Inwit said:

I actually quite like Tzaangors too, though I understand people's frustration as they are an AoS unit first. To be honest I'd like to see GW do Tzaangor kits unique to 40k and expand the Tzaangor range as whole.  

 

Back on topic; I'm hoping they do a good job rules wise of giving people ways of playing purely Daemons effectively and purely Thousand Sons effectively. I don't want TS to be forced into taking Daemons to be competitive and Daemon players, having lost their own codex should still be able to play a Daemon list without needing TS units. 

 

I'm also hoping they have some good Detachments. I'd like to see Magnus and Ahriman get their own Detachments and one just for Daemons. 

 

Given the Infernal Master has Screamers as part of his miniature it would make sense rules wise for him to get some sort of interaction with them. 

 

Model wise there is a lot TS could and should get but seeing as GW really doesn't seem to care about TS (which is odd s I understand the Ahriman series is quite successful by BL standards) I hope this robot thing doesn't suck. Personally I find GW can be hit and miss with Chaos and I prefer the cleaner look TS have compared to the other legions which have mouths, tentacles and horns everywhere. 

 

Maybe in 11th GW will stop being scumbags and give TS: Psyker Dreadnought, Exalted Sorcerer in Terminator Armour, Melee/Havoc Rubrics, a proper Daemon Engine or two like DG have. 

 

Imagine if the Infernal Master was able to lead Daemons...

 

While Castellax makes sense as a guess for our Psy-Automa since TSons have the Castellax-Achea in HH, I think we have overlooked the idea of a Psychic Thallax somewhat.

 

On the "hypothetical new models" side of things, there's still more stuff that could be stolen from HH if needed:

Numerologist (Psyker Techmarine)
Khenetai Occult (Assault Unit)
Ammitara Occult (Recon/Scout Unit)

Osiron Class Dreadnought (Yep, it's our Psychic Dread)

 

And as for a non-HH unit idea:
Thrall Wizards (Either a unique non-Tzaangor Cultist unit or a Leader unit for Cultists)

[Ahzek451]

14 hours ago, The Praetorian of Inwit said:

I actually quite like Tzaangors too, though I understand people's frustration as they are an AoS unit first. To be honest I'd like to see GW do Tzaangor kits unique to 40k and expand the Tzaangor range as whole.  

To be fair, they have been in realm of chaos: lost and the damned, pre-dating the rubric lore. But I know what you mean, your speaking to the model release. And this isn't directed at you, but it reminded me that a lot of people think that Tzaangor are a nuisance transfer unit from sigmar to pad the codex. Yes...and no. Per what I said about lost and the damned, god-specific beastmen chaffe have been around for a long time. For us older gents, this isn't a simple AoS port, but rather a long awaited unit finally joining the legion fold. Not a new afterthought. I'm ok with the chainsword and laspistol bits they sell separately, just wish this option was more viable, or they let you mix and match shields and swords. Or offer other 40k weapons. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

For the record, my friend that just got into the hobby and thousand sons likes tzaangors. Thinks space goatmen working for daemons and chaos marines is cool. I also like them, I played beastmen of chaos before fantasy died. I just know some people have a hangup on them and they put them in a lot of boxes. As a death guard player, shoving 30 Poxwalkers in a combat patrol but saying you can only use 20 with the 7 plaguemarines in the box is a slap in the face and also made it the only unfieldable combat patrol in 9th edition.

 

Random question, the $15 upgrade for gors on GW's site comes with 2 sprues not one right? For 10 guys not just 5?

[Ahzek451]

25 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

 

Random question, the $15 upgrade for gors on GW's site comes with 2 sprues not one right? For 10 guys not just 5?

Unfortunately you will need 2 upgrade packs to fit on 1 box of 10 Tzaangor. Which will end up being around $90 if you wanted 1 unit. A really crappy thing by GW. I think that's why the combat patrol box is the better option as it comes with the upgrade bits at a seemingly neglectable cost. 

Edited January 29 by Ahzek451

[Special Officer Doofy]

17 minutes ago, Ahzek451 said:

Unfortunately you will need 2 upgrade packs to fit on 1 box of 10 Tzaangor. Which will end up being around $90 if you wanted 1 unit. A really crappy thing by GW. I think that's why the combat patrol box is the better option as it comes with the upgrade bits at a seemingly neglectable cost. 

 

Thaaaats garbage. $88 for 65 points might be the winner for the worst money per point in the game (excluding overpriced forge world nonsense). 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I think a lot of the kickback against goats came from the "pure marine" advocates - so, the same people (well, in spirit if not in body) who objected to cultists whenever they are the best choice for chaos space marines, or, in a similar vein, (and this is going back aways) those folks in 3rd ed who objected to redemptionists (so, male imperial cultists) and (male) priests being necessary to have an effective sisters of battle army.  Which is fair - I can understand a player wanting to focus on a particular theme, especially when that is the central theme of the force, and even more so when it seems like the development of that main theme is being held back by the (to that player) dissonant elements.

 

Its interesting that a lot of the visible animosity over this issue appears to have disappeared now that "troops" units are no longer a fixed requirement or bring an in game advantage - in other words, now that the dissonant elements are no longer a "tax" one needs to pay (or is perceived as such) to field an effective army.  That said, its not like these issues have gone away, its just that the rules better support playing the army you want (and not feeling penalized for doing so), so their isn't the "friction" that there used to be on this.

Edited January 29 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Indy Techwisp]

2 hours ago, Dr_Ruminahui said:

I think a lot of the kickback against goats came from the "pure marine" advocates - so, the same people (well, in spirit if not in body) who objected to cultists whenever they are the best choice for chaos space marines, or, in a similar vein, (and this is going back aways) those folks in 3rd ed who objected to redemptionists (so, male imperial cultists) and (male) priests being necessary to have an effective sisters of battle army.  Which is fair - I can understand a player wanting to focus on a particular theme, especially when that is the central theme of the force, and even more so when it seems like the development of that main theme is being held back by the (to that player) dissonant elements.

 

Its interesting that a lot of the visible animosity over this issue appears to have disappeared now that "troops" units are no longer a fixed requirement or bring an in game advantage - in other words, now that the dissonant elements are no longer a "tax" one needs to pay (or is perceived as such) to field an effective army.  That said, its not like these issues have gone away, its just that the rules better support playing the army you want (and not feeling penalized for doing so), so their isn't the "friction" that there used to be on this.

 

Hi.

Very vocal opponent of Tzaangors here.

 

My dislike for Tzaangors is based on the fact that Tzaangors are the face of their Native AoS faction, being the faction mascot for several editions.

Meanwhile the Rubric Marines and Sorcerers, the "face" of the TSons faction, are either equaled or outnumbered by the amount of imports from AoS and WHFB (this varies based on if the Skyfires are treated as a seperate unit or not).

Their constant appearance in TSons media with seemingly a larger focus on them from GW than our actual Sons of Magnus is concerning considering, as stated, they're already the posterboys of the other main Tzeentch faction GW support.

 

That said, I'm not opposed to Cultists.

Moreover, I've been rather vocal about wanting GW to add more support for them in the faction.

 

The lack of a "Troops Tax" also doesn't really help IMO since nearly every balance dataslate the price of a Rubric Squad climbs ever higher (we're approaching the point that a Squad of our main Battleline will outprice Knights), so while there's no requirement to take "Troops" the current mission deck demands Battleline and Tzaangors are still your cheapest option.

 

In general though, I'm concerned that Thousand Sons are being shuffled out of the spotlight in our own army, especially since we may be getting Daemons added to the Codex.

A few Rubrics and Sorcerers backed up by a Horde of Goats and Horrors may be a very Tzeentchian army, but it's not really a Thousand Sons army.

[Nephaston]

6 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

Thaaaats garbage. $88 for 65 points might be the winner for the worst money per point in the game (excluding overpriced forge world nonsense). 

The current Combat Patrol Box comes with 20 tzaangors and enough upgrades for all of them. Plus of course a 5-pack of scarabs and an Infernal Master.

 

[Special Officer Doofy]

1 hour ago, Nephaston said:

The current Combat Patrol Box comes with 20 tzaangors and enough upgrades for all of them. Plus of course a 5-pack of scarabs and an Infernal Master.

 

 

Right, that was already explained to me in the previous post. But to just get the 10 tzaangors by themselves is $58. And the upgrade is $15 for only 5, so you'll need two. $88 for a cultist equivalent unit that's only 65 points is ridiculous. The combat patrol could change next edition and there would be no economically sane way of getting them. The $15 upgrade should really come with two sprues.

[Nephaston]

2 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

The combat patrol could change next edition and there would be no economically sane way of getting them. The $15 upgrade should really come with two sprues.

It will probably change this edition with the codex release, so it even more short-lived. But yeah, it's way too expensive, especially considering how chainswords and pistols are the downgrade compared to tzaangor blades.

[Ahzek451]

16 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Hi.

Very vocal opponent of Tzaangors here.

 

My dislike for Tzaangors is based on the fact that Tzaangors are the face of their Native AoS faction, being the faction mascot for several editions.

Meanwhile the Rubric Marines and Sorcerers, the "face" of the TSons faction, are either equaled or outnumbered by the amount of imports from AoS and WHFB (this varies based on if the Skyfires are treated as a seperate unit or not).

Their constant appearance in TSons media with seemingly a larger focus on them from GW than our actual Sons of Magnus is concerning considering, as stated, they're already the posterboys of the other main Tzeentch faction GW support.

 

That said, I'm not opposed to Cultists.

Moreover, I've been rather vocal about wanting GW to add more support for them in the faction.

 

The lack of a "Troops Tax" also doesn't really help IMO since nearly every balance dataslate the price of a Rubric Squad climbs ever higher (we're approaching the point that a Squad of our main Battleline will outprice Knights), so while there's no requirement to take "Troops" the current mission deck demands Battleline and Tzaangors are still your cheapest option.

 

In general though, I'm concerned that Thousand Sons are being shuffled out of the spotlight in our own army, especially since we may be getting Daemons added to the Codex.

A few Rubrics and Sorcerers backed up by a Horde of Goats and Horrors may be a very Tzeentchian army, but it's not really a Thousand Sons army.

That's fair, and I can get on board with the goats being presented on the tabletop not being advertised in the most efficient way between both systems. I suppose it is also true that depending when a fan joins the 15th, will help shape their vision of what it means to be a Thousand sons player. The roots of a god legion fallen to chaos meant that the shackles of the imperium were off and the modern path for each legion meant they could add anything to the toolbox as desired. This would mean that a legion like world eaters has the support of their patron so marched side-by-side with mortal chaffe and daemonic support alike. That was the identity back then and I think GW is trying to return to that. I don't think this lessens the identity of the legion itself. It just may not be as power-armored packed as their loyalist kin. But that is the point isn't it? We are an identity that is far removed from space marines. HOWEVER, even back then there were rules in place to make sure you did represent the Astartes portion since the representation of the legion was represented by the leadership. You HAD to pick a chaos lord as an HQ, and you HAD to take some Astartes before filling the rest of your army out with daemons. 

And so to an extent I would agree with you on GW's handle on 10th army organization. At a glance, the freedom to build armies where a T.sons sorcerer lord leads a pack of mostly Tzeentch daemons would be totally lore-accurate, it would indeed be sad if GW screwed the pooch and the incentive to take anything rubric tanked due to bad codex balance. But since we are stuck with 10th for now I would hope GW puts in the work with these books. I am not expecting miracles, but I get the gut feeling GW knew folding in the daemons proper to each respective legion was no small task and they had to go back to the drawing board a bit. Possibly re-writing our army rule, and quite possibly even some unit abilities and profiles to balance out such a big inclusion. And if that was the case, makes sense why WE, EC, DG, and TS are releasing on the back end of this edition and around the same time. 

I personally can't wait to re-build my original T.sons army. A sorcerer lord with rubrics, tanks, and summoning in some daemons for support. And then plopping down a big ol' lord of change for good measure. 

[LSM]

On 1/29/2025 at 8:30 AM, Ahzek451 said:

To be fair, they have been in realm of chaos: lost and the damned, pre-dating the rubric lore...

 

And in true 80's fashion: shoulder pads for days:

 

[Ahzek451]

1 hour ago, LSM said:

 

And in true 80's fashion: shoulder pads for days:

 

Thats the stuff... well played. 

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

@LSM See that is awesome. I think if GW wanted to we could have 40k specific Tzaangors. 

 

It would also be nice to get unique Cultists. A 40k version of the Kairic Acolytes. 

 

Sadly, I don't think the TS have anyone in the studio that is their Champion so to speak. 

 

While I understand people find Tzaangors being pushed in media frustrating it's not like TS have a very big roster of units to showcase. In Space Marine 2 I'm guessing GW didn't want then showing things like a Rubric Dread because there's no model. Hence we get Tzaangors. 

 

I do expect the Vindicator to go.