The End and the Death: Volume I discussion thread

[Lord_Caerolion]

On 12/28/2022 at 5:32 PM, Moonreaper666 said:

 

Sons of Horus only lost Three COMPANIES at Saturnine! 300 out of HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of Marines!!!

 

Astartes from ALL NINE TRAITOR LEGIONS participated in 

 

World Eaters are too far away to attack Traitor Titans and 

 

I am definitely the only one that read Mortis

 

Each Spaceport can move MILLIONS of men and BILLIONS of TONS of material from space to Terra IN AN HOUR!!!

 

The Traitors held Lion Gate Spaceport for over FIFTY DAYS!!!

 

The White Scars did not kill MILLIONS of Chaos Cultists during Warhawk!!!

 

… yeah I’m not even going to start going into how this is nonsense, I’ll just laugh at your assertion that you’re the only one to read Mortis, instead of just being the only one to take your own… “unique” line of reasoning away from it, the same way you do everything else you do. 

[Moonreaper666]

5 hours ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

The fact that the Traitor fleet has withdrawn from the White Scars shows that they aren’t in any real condition for proper fighting. The Traitor fleet is a shadow of what it once was, having had to fight through the entire Solar System, taking significant losses each step of the way. 
 

Imperial Navy isn’t a thing yet, and most Imperial Army ships are troop carriers. Dark Mechanicum, wouldn’t count on them too much for the previously explained reasons. 
 

The last thing to remember is that the Traitor fleets have lost their most powerful weapon. Well, not “lost”, per se, more that they’ve already used them. The most dangerous weapon an Astartes vessel has is its Astartes. 
The Traitors have deployed all of theirs, or at least the overwhelming majority. The incoming Loyalists have more than they need to board and capture each near-crippled and ammo-starved vessel remaining in the Traitor fleet. 
 

Traitor Fleet vs Guilliman Fleet is not a fight the Traitors can win, or even stall. That’s why it’s described as such a game-ending threat to Horus, each and every time it’s mentioned. 

 

The Traitor Imperial Army had plenty of ship during Solar War. Plenty of Pirates and Rogue Trader ships augmented Horus' Armada

 

Mars can shot down Guilliman's flagship with one laser-hit. The planet has enough guns, that outranged everything Loyalists have, to turn Smurf's fleet into space debris

 

Dark Mechanicum ships not only outranged Astarte ships but have more firepower. They would have no problem wiping out Guilliman and Russ' fleets. Even the Lion and his WMDs would struggle and take too much time

 

White Scars are decimated retaking one of the two Spaceports. Daemons will overrun then, Dorn and Corswain unless something changes quickly and tremendously

 

There are many more Death Guard than there are White Scars, Blood Angels and Imperial Fists. Mortation only had a portion of his Legion defending the Lion Gate Spaceport and many of the DG defending it survived (Cultists and Daemons took many of the hits)

 

Typhus' personal army is very large. Vorx and other Death Guard Commanders each had several Companies when they attacked Eternity Gate. Nurgle Cultists and Zombies provide more bulk and firepower

 

There are still a few Billion Traitors on Terra. Plenty of meat, steel and firepower to take back the Astronomican, wipe out the remnant of the White Scars, take Bhab Bastion and reach the Throne

 

It's the Emperor that needs time more than Horus. It took DEATHSTRIKE MISSILES plus A LOT OF DIVERSIONARY TARGETS to cripple the Vengeful Spirit!

 

The Sons of Horus are still fresh and in very large numbers. They alone outnumber all the remaining Loyalist Marines. Iron Warriors have a few Companies attacking Eternity Gate

 

The Traitor Titans are still in play. So are the Artillery. Just need to focus that immense firepower on the weakest point of Eternity Gate, just need a hole big enough for tanks and infantry to enter

 

The Palace is no longer safe against Daemons. Raldoron and Azkaerllon are going to be busy protecting Emperor on the Throne

 

When does Garro's last Novella take place? If it's after Warhawk then Mortarion is back in battle

 

I bet Abaddon disabled the Void Shields. Only because he wanted one last glourious fight before he and Horus die. Unfortunately for him (and like how Archaon finds out) the Chaos Gods have other plans for him and do prevent his assisted-suicide. (Saturnine showed him that fighting, killing and dying are all that is left for him to do and enjoy, until the Black Legion series)

 

This should be like the Banner Saga Part III. The very last room guarded by the very few defenders left fighting to survive as the teleporting strikeforce (Please name them Last Chancers) strike at Horus!

[Taliesin]

10 hours ago, Sothalor said:

 

I wouldn't put any stock in anything WarCom says about any of their products. They're marketing hype generators, whose job is to plaster big, attention-getting catchphrases to drum up enthusiasm for [Next Product].

 

:cuss:, if you go by the "big" Black Library stream, and the blurbs they toss up about the books they haven't read the Siege of Terra.

 

Remember how Sanguinius had an epic showdown with Ka'Bandha in Saturnine? WarCom remembers!

 

 

Yes, I am aware of it ;)

 

And obviously that is exactly what they are. They have proven to be unreliable in that regards, but I am choosing to put some stock in their latest statement because I do suspect that Abnett will add a fair few things that are unexpected and additions. After all how else do you end up with 3 books for the very final segment.

[DukeLeto69]

9 minutes ago, Taliesin said:

 

 

Yes, I am aware of it ;)

 

And obviously that is exactly what they are. They have proven to be unreliable in that regards, but I am choosing to put some stock in their latest statement because I do suspect that Abnett will add a fair few things that are unexpected and additions. After all how else do you end up with 3 books for the very final segment.

When people say “Abnett will add” I think what they mean to say is that the author commissioned to write the last book(s) will work with and agree with the IP owner GW/BL on what needs to be included in the content. They will bat around ideas, agree on some but discount others.

[Lord_Caerolion]

6 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

The Traitor Imperial Army had plenty of ship during Solar War. Plenty of Pirates and Rogue Trader ships augmented Horus' Armada

 

Mars can shot down Guilliman's flagship with one laser-hit. The planet has enough guns, that outranged everything Loyalists have, to turn Smurf's fleet into space debris

 

Dark Mechanicum ships not only outranged Astarte ships but have more firepower. They would have no problem wiping out Guilliman and Russ' fleets. Even the Lion and his WMDs would struggle and take too much time

 

White Scars are decimated retaking one of the two Spaceports. Daemons will overrun then, Dorn and Corswain unless something changes quickly and tremendously

 

There are many more Death Guard than there are White Scars, Blood Angels and Imperial Fists. Mortation only had a portion of his Legion defending the Lion Gate Spaceport and many of the DG defending it survived (Cultists and Daemons took many of the hits)

 

Typhus' personal army is very large. Vorx and other Death Guard Commanders each had several Companies when they attacked Eternity Gate. Nurgle Cultists and Zombies provide more bulk and firepower

 

There are still a few Billion Traitors on Terra. Plenty of meat, steel and firepower to take back the Astronomican, wipe out the remnant of the White Scars, take Bhab Bastion and reach the Throne

 

It's the Emperor that needs time more than Horus. It took DEATHSTRIKE MISSILES plus A LOT OF DIVERSIONARY TARGETS to cripple the Vengeful Spirit!

 

The Sons of Horus are still fresh and in very large numbers. They alone outnumber all the remaining Loyalist Marines. Iron Warriors have a few Companies attacking Eternity Gate

 

The Traitor Titans are still in play. So are the Artillery. Just need to focus that immense firepower on the weakest point of Eternity Gate, just need a hole big enough for tanks and infantry to enter

 

The Palace is no longer safe against Daemons. Raldoron and Azkaerllon are going to be busy protecting Emperor on the Throne

 

When does Garro's last Novella take place? If it's after Warhawk then Mortarion is back in battle

 

I bet Abaddon disabled the Void Shields. Only because he wanted one last glourious fight before he and Horus die. Unfortunately for him (and like how Archaon finds out) the Chaos Gods have other plans for him and do prevent his assisted-suicide. (Saturnine showed him that fighting, killing and dying are all that is left for him to do and enjoy, until the Black Legion series)

 

This should be like the Banner Saga Part III. The very last room guarded by the very few defenders left fighting to survive as the teleporting strikeforce (Please name them Last Chancers) strike at Horus!

… dude, the Sons of Horus are ABSOLUTELY not “still fresh and in very large numbers”. They have been at the forefront of the fighting, from day 1 of the Siege. 
The rest of that is just the standard “I think Chaos is cool, so they have the numbers and ability to do whatever my headcanon requires for them to kill TRILLIONS of people.”

[DarkChaplain]

....he also missed the memo on the pirates, renegades and rogue traders being selfish pricks that'll turn tail the moment the tide turns against them. They want to survive and profit, not die for somebody else's doomed war.

 

And the Sons of Horus lost most of their leadership in a failed gambit, are down to raw recruits and chaos-crazed maniacs. That's why Abaddon leaves, because the Sons of Horus are going down the drain and his ideals are no longer a thing in the Legion. It's why he wanted Saturnine in the first place: To have an honest battle - not because it's somehow all that still gives him pleasure, but because he hates what the war has turned into, what his brothers have become, and how honest flesh and steel were being replaced by sorcery.

 

The Sons of Horus no longer have the structures and strength to succeed. They're extremely reliant on the other remnants of the traitor Legions. Horus was desperate about Angron bringing down Sanguinius not because he wanted Angron to earn a W, but because he knows just how much the chances are stacking up against him with Mortarion and Magnus already banished, Perturabo gone from the system and Fulgrim diddling civilians somewhere.

 

Horus has nothing left to give in terms of manpower. He has to bring the battle close to him, to an environment that gives him the advantage. He can no longer rely on the World Eaters and warbands to reach the inner sanctum. And for one reason or another, he seems unable to leave the Vengeful Spirit. He's not winning.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Guys it's taken a few years but I finally realized that he's trolling.

 

The all caps on the ridiculous statements, the statements as fact without any framing, the calling ultramarines smurfs and other meme names. These aren't the posts of someone trying to be serious.

 

Good play, you had us going for a long time!

[Lord_Caerolion]

I’m still torn between “troll” and “super-edgy kid who loves Chaos because it’s in-universe Satanism and daemons killing/torturing countless people is ultimate edginess”.

[Moonreaper666]

17 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

....he also missed the memo on the pirates, renegades and rogue traders being selfish pricks that'll turn tail the moment the tide turns against them. They want to survive and profit, not die for somebody else's doomed war.

 

And the Sons of Horus lost most of their leadership in a failed gambit, are down to raw recruits and chaos-crazed maniacs. That's why Abaddon leaves, because the Sons of Horus are going down the drain and his ideals are no longer a thing in the Legion. It's why he wanted Saturnine in the first place: To have an honest battle - not because it's somehow all that still gives him pleasure, but because he hates what the war has turned into, what his brothers have become, and how honest flesh and steel were being replaced by sorcery.

 

The Sons of Horus no longer have the structures and strength to succeed. They're extremely reliant on the other remnants of the traitor Legions. Horus was desperate about Angron bringing down Sanguinius not because he wanted Angron to earn a W, but because he knows just how much the chances are stacking up against him with Mortarion and Magnus already banished, Perturabo gone from the system and Fulgrim diddling civilians somewhere.

 

Horus has nothing left to give in terms of manpower. He has to bring the battle close to him, to an environment that gives him the advantage. He can no longer rely on the World Eaters and warbands to reach the inner sanctum. And for one reason or another, he seems unable to leave the Vengeful Spirit. He's not winning.

 

Only 300 SoH died in Saturnine. They managed to kill 100 Imperial Fists/Blood Angels/Loyalist Blackshields. 

 

In Warhawk, a few Companies of Sons of Horus were killed BUT they also killed many times more of their number in Loyalist Astartes plus Guardsmen:

 

"Just getting here had been an achievement. They had cut their way through a full battalion of Blood Angels, supported by an Imperial Fists siege squad and the remains of an Imperial Army mobile infantry regiment."

 

The three Sons of Horus Companies managed to kill some of Sigismund's Templars as well

 

Samginius and his Blood Angels managed to kill many Word Bearers. But even then they managed to kill many of his Marines as well

 

Abaddon returned to the fight during Warhawk. Fighting and Killing Loyalists on his way to Mercury Wall. Then at Ultimate Wall he kills more Loyalists in his berserk state (Referencing Old Lore)

 

The White Scars used up most of the remaining Loyalist Imperial Army tanks during Warhawk. Traitor Imperial Army has much more fighting already and in reserve

 

Terra is literally drowning in Traitors and Daemons

 

No wonder almost every Traitor Legion, except the Thousand Sons, still has Tens of Thousands of Horus Heresy veterans during the Great Rift!

[System Sound]

Or he's secretly leaking info on... Ah who am I kidding...

[Carach]

We were all kids once, folks. Some of us also harbour an issue or two. 

 

Some just get a bit too far down the rabbit hole. I think the mods have been doing a good job of, well, moderating, the bigger outbursts.

 

As distracting as the opinions of one poster can be, it's not ending our worlds so let's just allow the mods to continue their biz as we discuss actual plot lines rather than bean counting force compositions,population demographics, and fanboying fantasy factions.

 

Has anyone kept track of the plot threads that require wrapping up in these last releases? 

 

• Some Knights/former knights I guess, that remain on Terra rather than in super secret hidden planet fortress. - Garro I think has a novella of his own to conclude his thread?
• Some remembrancers-turned proto-inquisitors, religious figures and the like.
• A merry band of time/dimension travelling friends. The plot having rather substantially thickened during this mini-series.
• A not-so-merry Erebus.
• Sons of Horus generally - having lost a lot of top guys and this whole saga ultimately bearing their daddy's name, one would expect them to actually have some air-time at last? There aren't many others available what with various legions no longer being present in a meaningful fashion.
• Our main man Custodian - there's a lot of future stuff to potentially be alluding to.
• Reinforcements close by - is there going to be some scenes with their council of sorts as they near the system/battle their way into it?
• Other rando humans from earlier in the mini-series, and/or the alpha legion operatives - I am not sure I am that fussed by these, but it seemed at least one of those humans had travelled somewhat in character development over the course of a few books. Not sure if I am forgetting the fate of our infantryman. 

 

I am sure I am missing a number of other things

 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Brother Tyler

[Sothalor]

There's the thread of Corswain's Dark Angels detachment that made it to Terra and retook the Astronomicon, with the heavy implication that some of them are Luther-ites. 

[darkhorse0607]

There's also a fairly large chunk of buildup for the post-Siege era that they haven't done, that I feel like should be done during the Siege but hasn't been.

 

Raldoron for example, should have been set up this entire time to be the de facto leader of the 9th Legion we know he becomes immediately following the final battle, we saw him briefly in Fear to Tread, Lost and the Damned, and Saturnine but that's it. I feel like Echoes was the prime spot for that to happen but he didn't feature.

 

Not to mention the beginnings of the cleanup from the Siege after it's broken, unless they leave that for a now unconfirmed Scouring series. Might be an unpopular decision but I hope we get that in the last chunk of The End and The Death rather than a cliffhanger for the next series.

Edited January 4, 2023 by darkhorse0607

[cheywood]

Maybe I’m crazy, but I wonder if the best way to set up the Scouring is an anthology of shorts set during/right after the Siege, featuring characters/concepts that will soon become prominent? That way different authors can lay the groundwork for their scouring novels without Abnett having to devote a significant portion of the finale to setting up the next chapter. Abnett’s endings sometimes feel lacking to me because they immediately start looking towards the next installment, which is a great way to build hype but not always what’s best from a narrative perspective. The ending of one of the longest and most epic series in SF deserves the focus to be on what’s happening, not what’s to come.

Edited December 31, 2022 by cheywood

[System Sound]

1. What I want to know, is what the hell happened to all the Psy titans. We saw what 2? Out of 25!

 

2. What ever happened to Sharowkyn and why Magnus helped them.

 

3. Was Arvida's story wrapped up? Either i can't remember anymore or i haven't read something...

 

[Moonreaper666]

1 hour ago, System Sound said:

1. What I want to know, is what the hell happened to all the Psy titans. We saw what 2? Out of 25!

 

2. What ever happened to Sharowkyn and why Magnus helped them.

 

3. Was Arvida's story wrapped up? Either i can't remember anymore or i haven't read something...

 

 

1. The Psi-Titans bore the burnt of the Traitor Titans attack. Legio Mortis and the Warmaster Titans decimated them and the few remaining Loyalist Titans

 

2. Sharrowkyn is either WIA or KIA. Magnus wanted to help out Corax just like how he helped with Vulkan. Magnus was well-liked by many of his Primarch brothers. Only Russ and Mortarion truly disliked him.

 

3. Arvida became Janus. Malcador sent him and the other Grey Knights away. Hid Titan in the Warp

[DarkChaplain]

Sharrowkyn is ready to be found by the Imperials & Cawl. That plotline is done with as of Sons of the Selenar. In the afterword, McNeill admits that he literally forgot about Magnus having plans for Sharrowkyn as per The Seventh Serpent. It's a dud.

 

Still mad they solved the Primaris gene-seed nonsense this way instead of via the Alpha Legion / Omegon at Eskrador when he supposedly fights Guilliman. The guy has the Primarch project samples, should have been the ideal way to get Guilliman to outsource Astartes+1 to Cawl post-Heresy.

 

Arvida is gone from Terra. He's with the proto-Grey Knights on Titan, which is warp-shielded / cut off from the rest of the system before the Siege. Titan will reappear during the Scouring, with warp-time shenanigans having produced a full Chapter of Grey Knights, and one of their first missions should be to Pandorax, closing the Damnation Cache that Madail opened on Pythos. We "know" that Arvida, or what's left of him as Ianius, is still alive by the War of the Beast, though.

[Moonreaper666]

6 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

Sharrowkyn is ready to be found by the Imperials & Cawl. That plotline is done with as of Sons of the Selenar. In the afterword, McNeill admits that he literally forgot about Magnus having plans for Sharrowkyn as per The Seventh Serpent. It's a dud.

 

Still mad they solved the Primaris gene-seed nonsense this way instead of via the Alpha Legion / Omegon at Eskrador when he supposedly fights Guilliman. The guy has the Primarch project samples, should have been the ideal way to get Guilliman to outsource Astartes+1 to Cawl post-Heresy.

 

Arvida is gone from Terra. He's with the proto-Grey Knights on Titan, which is warp-shielded / cut off from the rest of the system before the Siege. Titan will reappear during the Scouring, with warp-time shenanigans having produced a full Chapter of Grey Knights, and one of their first missions should be to Pandorax, closing the Damnation Cache that Madail opened on Pythos. We "know" that Arvida, or what's left of him as Ianius, is still alive by the War of the Beast, though.

 

Omegon survives the Heresy only to bail on his Legion before the Scouring

 

Without their remaining Primarch, the Alpha Legion now follow the only ones giving them orders, the Chaos Gods. 10k years later, they are corrupted

[Lord_Caerolion]

I mean, credit where it’s due, I’m agreeing with Moonreaper on this particular one. My headcanon has always been that the Eskrador incident never happened, that Omegon just disappeared into the shadows after the Heresy, doing his work far better in the shadows where he’s just a myth. 
 

As for the Alpha Legion, sure there’s a few “Loyalist” hold-outs, but for the vast, vast majority of the Legion, information was on a need-to-know basis, and they just knew their Legion had sided with Horus, and Chaos was an “easy” way to get power. 
There would be very, very few AL left in 40k who know of the Cabal, and why their Primarchs actually sided with Horus. The lie has become the truth. 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Lord_Caerolion

[Moonreaper666]

29 minutes ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

I mean, credit where it’s due, I’m agreeing with Moonreaper on this particular one. My headcanon has always been that the Eskrador incident never happened, that Omegon just disappeared into the shadows after the Heresy, doing his work far better in the shadows where he’s just a myth. 
 

As for the Alpha Legion, sure there’s a few “Loyalist” hold-outs, but for the vast, vast majority of the Legion, information was on a need-to-know basis, and they just knew their Legion had sided with Horus, and Chaos was an “easy” way to get power. 
There would be very, very few AL left in 40k who know of the Cabal, and why their Primarchs actually sided with Horus. The lie has become the truth. 

 

The very few non-Chaos Renegade AL warbands still fight the Imperium and work alongside the countless pro-Chaos warbands

 

Not that many Traitor Marines died on Terra relatively to the numbers sent there. 18k Emperor Children dead in Saturnine was the highest so far (out of a Legion of 100k Marines)

 

Tens of thousands of Sons of Horus did not participate in the Siege. Same with the Iron Warriors. Not every Emperor Children participated in the Siege so they are not part of the 100k EC Astartes on Terra

 

I get the feeling GW/BL wants most of the Traitor Marines on Terra to survive to explain why so many HH-vets are still alive during the Great Rift (Torvann Lokk and his warband for example). Same with Traitor Titans and Traitor Ships.

 

Vorx's warband does survive the Scouring, that alone is a few hundred HH Death Guard vets. Typhus' personal fleet survives, that's tens of thousands of veteran Death Guard. Both commanders had tens of thousands of DG each during Warhawk

 

Sons of Horus have only lost a few Companies in both Saturnine and Warhawk. Those Companies killed plenty of Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and Imperial Army during the Siege

 

That's over 120k Marines still fit for combat during the Finale

 

Abaddon returned to Terra during Warhawk and has been on a rampage, killing Loyalists left and right

 

Iron Warriors had the smallest force during Echoes, a few Companies. The Alpha Legion, Word Bearers and Emperors Children have committed much more to Echoes and they are still alive

 

Many Traitor ships that participated in Beta-Garmon and Solar War are still around 10k years later. These ships survived multiple Black Crusades as well

 

Thousands of Traitor Blackshields probably survive the Heresy and went to the Eye. Many of them later join the Black Legion

 

It's strange that the Space Wolves lost so many Marines that they have been reduced to an oversized Chapter (1.75k). While the Thousand Sons eventually fully recovered their numbers by the 41st Millenium (10k-63k, mostly Rubrics and Aspiring Sorcerers obviously). Heck, the Prospero Spireguard are still around as well!

[System Sound]

4 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

It's strange that the Space Wolves lost so many Marines that they have been reduced to an oversized Chapter (1.75k). While the Thousand Sons eventually fully recovered their numbers by the 41st Millenium (10k-63k, mostly Rubrics and Aspiring Sorcerers obviously). Heck, the Prospero Spireguard are still around as well!

Didn't SW get majorly screwed by Alpha Legion, thus loosing a lot of numbers? Then ducking around the galaxy, while Horus was burning terra. And the War of the Fang didn't help either.

 

And Thousand Sons having the numbers again is the strangest part really. Because we still don't have a concrete answer to HOW they get more Rubrics. We do know that the rubric is eternal (hah...), And it affects them past and present, but I don't think it affected TS that were already dead before the Rubric.

 

[System Sound]

13 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

1. The Psi-Titans bore the burnt of the Traitor Titans attack. Legio Mortis and the Warmaster Titans decimated them and the few remaining Loyalist Titans

If you're talking about what happened in Mortis. That was only one Titan. No?

[Lord_Caerolion]

The Emperors Children had a size pre-HH of 110,000. Of this, an estimated 50,000 died on the first Istvaan massacre, giving a strength of 60,000 going into the Dropsite Massacre. 
They haven’t exactly focused on rebuilding since then. 

[Moonreaper666]

9 hours ago, System Sound said:

Didn't SW get majorly screwed by Alpha Legion, thus loosing a lot of numbers? Then ducking around the galaxy, while Horus was burning terra. And the War of the Fang didn't help either.

 

And Thousand Sons having the numbers again is the strangest part really. Because we still don't have a concrete answer to HOW they get more Rubrics. We do know that the rubric is eternal (hah...), And it affects them past and present, but I don't think it affected TS that were already dead before the Rubric.

 

 

New psyker recruits since the Heresy has rebuild their numbers. 10k years is more than enough time to rebuild their Legion. Psyker smuggling/trafficking and Psyker Cults are their thing

 

I thought they can rebuilt some of the Rubrics multiple times

 

Space Wolves can only recruit from Fenris. TS have no such restrictions.

 

9 hours ago, System Sound said:

If you're talking about what happened in Mortis. That was only one Titan. No?

 

Mortis states the entire Sinister Ordo is fighting in that battle to replace the Loyalist Titans killed. Since they don't show up in Warhawk and retreating isn't easy they definitely took heavy losses, especially since they were heavily outnumbered and directly fought Dis Irae

 

Legio Mortis are the elite Traitor Titans under Horus. Plus they had Warmaster Titans, Traitor Knights and Traitor Imperial Army tanks providing support.

 

9 hours ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

The Emperors Children had a size pre-HH of 110,000. Of this, an estimated 50,000 died on the first Istvaan massacre, giving a strength of 60,000 going into the Dropsite Massacre. 
They haven’t exactly focused on rebuilding since then. 

 

I thought only 1/3rd of the ones at Isstvan III died?

 

Not every EC fought in Isstvan III or at Terra

 

Bile's job is to make more Marines for the EC. He's not the only Apothecary in that Legion. The Dark Mechanicum can also make more Traitor Marines for them, especially the Slaanesh-worshipping ones

 

Dorn thought the EC Legion had 100k Marines during Saturnine

 

The EC in the 41st have more Marines than during the Great Crusade or Heresy. They are doing better than the Word Bearers

 

The only Traitor Legion that has less Marines on Terra than any Loyalist Legion is the Iron Warriors, having a few Companies during Echoes

 

The Spaceports allowed Horus to drop MILLIONS of troops every hour he holds them. BILLIONS more descend outside the Spaceports

 

Guilliman is going to have an aneurysm cleaning Terra of the Billions of Traitors in it during the Finale!

[Mjasghar]

10 hours ago, System Sound said:

If you're talking about what happened in Mortis. That was only one Titan. No?

No that scene just focused on one part of the wall there were other psi titans