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The End and the Death: Volume I discussion thread

Ubiquitous1984

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Scribe Venerable Brother

Scribe

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4 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

I wonder if the Finale would point out how many Traitors from each subfaction or Legion manage to get out of the Siege alive

 

Even the World Eaters should have at least over 100k surviving the Siege

 

The Dark Mechanicum haven't really committed their forces in the Siege so far

 

Not likely, nobody cares about the numbers.

 

The Siege is over. Its the end. There is not going to be some 'Dark Mechanicum' arc at this point, its too late.

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Tolmeus Battle-Brother

Tolmeus

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If one only considers the book symbols of the LE of the SoT series, the next volume could easily capture the Eightfold Star of Chaos in addition to the Imperial Aquila. Might be a fitting closure 

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Krelious Novitiate

Krelious

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4 hours ago, Tolmeus said:

If one only considers the book symbols of the LE of the SoT series, the next volume could easily capture the Eightfold Star of Chaos in addition to the Imperial Aquila. Might be a fitting closure 

I think it would be better if it was the Eye of Horus(maybe the one interlaced with the 8 star)  because I think each book is tied to a certain character and maybe we will see the beginnings of the philosophy of the black legion that ADB laid out in his series. The Black Legion is a conglomeration of legionaries who are disgusted with their father primarchs and are looking towards brotherhood rather than being ruled,  considering none of the traitor primarchs are left on the ground I think its a unique narrative opportunity to plant the seed for the traitor legions to find a new common ground of working together after the madness of Echoes of Eternity. Maybe it will showcase Abbadon reintroducing order to the Chaos forces at the siege and his first steps towards corruption or accepting Chaos gifts. I hope the series ends with Abaddon heading towards the Eye of Terror with the Vengeful Spirit.

 

I feel like its likely we need both final siege books to be released before we get a Black Legion 3 novel because it will have required info in them.

Edited by Krelious
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grailkeeper Veteran

grailkeeper

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5 minutes ago, Krelious said:

I think it would be better if it was the Eye of Horus(maybe the one interlaced with the 8 star)  because I think each book is tied to a certain character and maybe we will see the beginnings of the philosophy of the black legion that ADB laid out in his series. The Black Legion is a conglomeration of legionaries who are disgusted with their father primarchs and are looking towards brotherhood rather than being ruled,  considering none of the traitor primarchs are left on the ground I think its a unique narrative opportunity to plant the seed for the traitor legions to find a new common ground of working together after the madness of Echoes of Eternity. Maybe it will showcase Abbadon reintroducing order to the Chaos forces at the siege and his first steps towards corruption or accepting Chaos gifts. I hope the series ends with Abaddon heading towards the Eye of Terror with the Vengeful Spirit.

 

I feel like its likely we need both final siege books to be released before we get a Black Legion 3 novel because it will have required info in them.

I can see ADB listening to Abnett and taking his relevant story ques from there much more than I can see Avnett including details at ADBs request. No disrespect to either of them tho- different approaches.

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Bobss Battle-Brother

Bobss

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17 minutes ago, Krelious said:

I think it would be better if it was the Eye of Horus(maybe the one interlaced with the 8 star)  because I think each book is tied to a certain character and maybe we will see the beginnings of the philosophy of the black legion that ADB laid out in his series. The Black Legion is a conglomeration of legionaries who are disgusted with their father primarchs and are looking towards brotherhood rather than being ruled,  considering none of the traitor primarchs are left on the ground I think its a unique narrative opportunity to plant the seed for the traitor legions to find a new common ground of working together after the madness of Echoes of Eternity. Maybe it will showcase Abbadon reintroducing order to the Chaos forces at the siege and his first steps towards corruption or accepting Chaos gifts. I hope the series ends with Abaddon heading towards the Eye of Terror with the Vengeful Spirit.

 

I feel like its likely we need both final siege books to be released before we get a Black Legion 3 novel because it will have required info in them.

 

Would greatly prefer if we kept Black Legion content in the Black Legion series tbh - just my opinion! I know debating Black Library/Games Workshop canon in AD2023 is literally a waste of time given how loose and fast official creators play with it (and, as a result, we're reduced to comparing our personal preferences and giving our opinions on various authors' portrayals), but that series has taken enough of a beating as it is over the past 4 years of Siege releases. Sounding like Scribe [In Who We Trust] here, but I prefer Abaddon to be #1 Horus fan and do his Miyamoto Musashi impression during the opening salvos of the Legion Wars. The only author who has established a different-but-just-as-good dynamic was Chris Wraight in Warhawk, where Horus is being viewed as this Fifth Ruinous Power by his own men

 

Also, one of my favourite themes of Talon. and Black Legion is that they are written as relatively minor (but foundationally significant) events, existing in the shadow of the cataclysmic Siege of Terra - however, as of 2014 and 2017, the Siege had not yet been written. There's lots of clever ways ADB plays with this, from outright flashbacks to Lheor being like ''huh I've seen bigger battles since then'' and it fooking rocks. Having both series bleed into each other really isn't my cup of tea, and the less Chaos grooming Abaddon, Falkus' banishment and Perturabo's withdrawral, the better

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Moonreaper666 Battle-Brother

Moonreaper666

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15 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Not likely, nobody cares about the numbers.

 

The Siege is over. Its the end. There is not going to be some 'Dark Mechanicum' arc at this point, its too late.

 

Some people do. Right numbers make a great battle like the Carnage of Morox while wrong numbers get the infamous Siege of Alaitoc

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Scribe Venerable Brother

Scribe

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Posted
18 minutes ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

Some people do. Right numbers make a great battle like the Carnage of Morox while wrong numbers get the infamous Siege of Alaitoc

 

The numbers are already nonsense. It won't be fixed now, with 2 books left.

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Mechanicus Tech-Support Battle-Brother

Mechanicus Tech-Support

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I'm reminded of an old interview with an author concerning Fantasy and the number of elves in a particular book: "There are as many elves as we need them to be"

 

How many traitors are left: As many as we need

How many loyalists are left: As many as we need

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Arkangilos Venerable Brother

Arkangilos

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On 2/13/2023 at 1:26 PM, cheywood said:

Never once have I thought, ‘that battle was cool enough, but it needs more numbers to be great’. Given how awful BL and GW are with numbers I like the fact that the Siege hasn’t really emphasized them much at all (outside of the editions Moonreaper has of course :laugh:). 

The only time I have a problem with numbers is when it's incredibly small for a full planetary war. (Space Marines being the exception.) A planet can provide at least 10 percent of it's population for direct military action at worst, and so a planetary invasion should be at least three times that minimum. Plus or minus depending on how much they are willing to bombard in advance.

Edited by Arkangilos
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Sothalor Veteran

Sothalor

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If anything, that's an argument to not name specific numbers if it can be avoided.

 

Just let there be an inference of overwhelming masses or countless waves or insufficient concentration of force at a key location.

 

Create the space, and let the reader's mind and imagination fill it in.

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cheywood Veteran

cheywood

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50 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

The only time I have a problem with numbers is when it's incredibly small for a full planetary war. (Space Marines being the exception.) A planet can provide at least 10 percent of it's population for direct military action at worst, and so a planetary invasion should be at least three times that minimum. Plus or minus depending on how much they are willing to bombard in advance.

I agree. It’s very easy for numbers to make things worse.

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DarkChaplain Veteran

DarkChaplain

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Posted (edited)

WarCom has a new summary video thing for the Siege so far.... at least if all you care about are the Primarch duels. Really hammers home just how many of those there are.

It really doesn't talk about anything else and is kind of cringeworthy in presentation, but hey, it's WarCom. I didn't check them for thoughtful commentary anyway.

 

 

There's a little more detail on the article, though not much:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/02/15/the-end-and-the-death-volume-i-is-nearly-here-catch-up-on-the-siege-of-terra-so-far/

Edited by DarkChaplain
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