point drops.

[Medjugorje]

In january GW already announced that they will fix our current weakness.

They said they tried not to change too much but it wasnt enough (wow, what a surprise - I really want to know if GW is so stupid or so calculating - didnt want to change anything and its just an excuse)

 

Lets say there are no new rules per Codex/Dataslate etc... 

How many points should a unit cost that the unit is considered as "okay"

 

I start with:

Captain: 55 points

Gravis Captain 90 points

Phobos Captain: 65 points

Terminator Captain: 80

Biker Captain: 80

Chaplain: 60

Primaris Captain: 70

Phobos Librarian: 70

Lieutenant: 45

Primaris Chaplain: 70

..

 

Judiciar: 70

Bikes: 25

Scout Bike: 22

Invader 65

Storm Speeder:110-125

Suppressor: 25

Hellblaster: 25

Repulsor: 200

Repulsor Exe: 220

Primaris Bikes: 35 points

Bladeguard: 30 points

Gladiator: 140-150 points

Intercessors: 18 points

Assault Intercessors: 17 points

Tacticals: 16 points

Incursors: 19 points

Infiltrators: 22 points

Scouts : 11 points

Impulsors: 80 points

Rhinos: 70 points

[The Emperors Champion22]

i think a 15-20% point drop across the board for every unit/datasheet is needed. if you compare units/models with other army equivalents ours are just too much for what they do. i think yours are pretty good and if theyre too much/not enough they can just be changed next dataslate.

[Captain Idaho]

Wonder if we'll see some removals of CP costs for Forge World vehicles? Probably not the Contemptor but I'd like to see the Kratos go down in that area as it isn't game breaking at the moment anyway.

 

Volkite Contemptors are a little lame when spammed.

[Medjugorje]

A big amount of units are lame when player spam it. But I dont think that there are so much units which would be spammed. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It is ludicrous we have to pay  CP to field FW units.

[Medjugorje]

I think the solution for that FW poroblem would be 

0CP for one unit

1CP for two units

3CP for 3 units

[Captain Idaho]

I think folk could get on board with that.

 

Regarding points values, I'd love to see plenty of drops in particular for our vehicles.

[Medjugorje]

Maybe just point drops would be not good because then its not an elite army anymore. But point drops + FLY would be awesome. but if that wont happen we need great point drops. And sadly i am sure that GW wont going that far. As everytime they made that.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think I'd concentrate point drops on vehicles especially transports. Foot characters and a fair amount of our infantry don't work without decent transports. So a nice drop on them first, with a second pass for the other units if that isn't enough would be how I would handle it.

 

[Captain Idaho]

Rhinos should be 35pts for certain units but must carry only said unit + characters. I'd do similar with the points of Impulsors really.

 

I don't think adding Fly would solve any of the problems with Marine vehicles really. Sure it's nice but it ain't breaking any games.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well we had fly and there no good reason for having removed it, so I’d certainly like it back… and it does have its uses.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh definitely it is useful, but it won't put the Marines in the top tier for sure.

[Maritn]

Unpopular opinion, but I don't want the Primaries chassis to have fly. I think most units should have fly replaced with some ability that allows them to move over lower barriers, but not any building.

 

Your point values look good. Those drops especially on Repulsors are needed, no way they should cost substantially more than a Redemptor.

[Karhedron]

Looking at the new Guard codex, one thing that leaps out is how cheap a lot of heavy weapons are (e.g. 5 points for Lascannons). Maybe this is where Marines will go. If you drop the prices of heavy weapons and other upgrades, you can field more toys without discounting the basic infantry to a point that becomes unbalancing.  A Devastator squad with 4 Lascannons is currently 170 points and is rarely taken. At 110-130 points, they might be more viable.

[Captain Idaho]

I think that's pretty fair. That'd make Tactical Marines more useful too.

[DesuVult]

At this point I would not be surprised if they made wargear free for tacticals.

[Doobles57]

1 hour ago, DesuVult said:

At this point I would not be surprised if they made wargear free for tacticals.

This would fit with what they did with Guard previously and Death Guard. I could see it happening. On the other hand, how much attention will they give to the firstborn units vs the Primaris ones? How interested are they in making firstborn the focus of (or even a viable part of) competitive marines?

[Medjugorje]

2 hours ago, DesuVult said:

At this point I would not be surprised if they made wargear free for tacticals.

What would be the worst solution imo.

[Emperor Ming]

Be careful what you wish for

 

Free gear isn't as free as you think, guard squads have gone from 50 to 55, then now 65 in the upcoming book

 

It's not what I would call free at all

 

Thats about a 15% pts hike

Edited November 24, 2022 by Emperor Ming

[Karhedron]

True but free wargear (if not accompanied by points hikes on the unit) is a good approach. Look at Space Marine Assault Squads for a way to do it right. They went from being trash-tier to moderately useful. Free special weapons and discounted wargear on the Sergeant made them an interesting choice. We now see them cropping up as action monkeys who can also take on light opposition.

[Medjugorje]

but honestly... if you have an army with assault squads without jump packs and all that weapons then its a punch in your face. If GW dont want to decrease their points too much then they should improve the unit.

 

I like the Aussault squad like now but it would have been much better to cut down their points. If GW dont want to see them spamed then they could let them like they are for the first 5 models but make the next added models VERY VERY cheap.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

5 hours ago, Doobles88 said:

This would fit with what they did with Guard previously and Death Guard. I could see it happening. On the other hand, how much attention will they give to the firstborn units vs the Primaris ones? How interested are they in making firstborn the focus of (or even a viable part of) competitive marines?

 

 Jump characters, devs in pods, vanguard vets, and attack bikes are some of the strongest marine units this edition so I doubt they have a problem with firstborn being viable. In addition the primaris troops would still have access to transhuman physiology and infiltrators would still provide a buffer from deep strikes. Giving tacticals a boost I think would just bring them in line with the other options. Not sure if they'd go all the way to free upgrades without raising the base cost of the unit though and I feel that Multi-melta should have a cost.

 

Edit: I did want to add that I think primaris have competitive units too. I think they've done a good job of keeping both lines relevant for the people that don't want to mix and match.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Captain Idaho]

I would actually say that Tacticals with free specials and heavies should cost the same as an Intercessor. That points cost would be better served at the Tactical Squad costs over the Intercessor cost currently, of course.

 

Although there's plenty of people who bought them, Intercessors are pretty much the weakest Troops choice right now.

 

They have less melee combat potential and infiltration than Incessors (who I used to think were dire but have more utility now thanks to gradual changes), less utility than Infiltrators, weaker melee than Assault Intercessors and weaker firepower than heavy weapon Tacticals (the Grav Cannon being 10pts is unbelievable).

 

So yeah, points down to level of Tactical Marines, who get free upgrades, would balance a lot of things.

 

Alongside cheaper transports (Rhinos I'm looking at you) would make armies a little more dynamic too.

 

On the subject of the Rhino, most Firstborn run in smaller units than the Rhino is useful for, therefore it's use is severely limited. 35pts but limited to being taken once for every Sternguard, Company Command, Tactical or Devastator Squad in the army would limit it being spammed.

[DesuVult]

One problem I see with a lot of ideas like across the board percentile point reductions and particularly going after transports is it would largely make popular choices more popular.

 

If you drastically slash costs for all troops I am still not taking intercessors usually.  You would just see people try stuff like 6 min squad grav cannon tacticals in 3 rhinos ot 4 and 2 infiltrators.  GW doesn't appear to care if firstborn or primaris are stronger, they barely care if one chapter is stronger than all others.  3 redemptors, 3 vanvets, eradicators might come back unless devestators in drop pods steal the show again or tanks get hit hard enough for predators to be viable, primaris FA options are still predominantly garbage so dirt cheap firstborn or maybe the ATV.

Edited November 24, 2022 by DesuVult

[Karhedron]

16 hours ago, DesuVult said:

One problem I see with a lot of ideas like across the board percentile point reductions and particularly going after transports is it would largely make popular choices more popular.

 

I suppose there are two separate issues here. The first is the external balance: how well the codex stands up against other armies. The second is internal balance: how different units within the Marine codex stack up against each other.

 

GW have shown in the past that they are willing to use points to try and address internal balance (e.g. Assault squad getting a significant discount). Dropping points across the range would help external balance but would not affect internal balance. Marines probably need a combination of rules changes and points changes to bring them back into contention and a (presumed) new codex would provide an opportunity for both. Internal balance is good but Marines have so many units to choose from that this is always going to be a struggle so I would settle for good external balance and long as there is a decent variety of viable units and builds.

 

Interestingly, Chaos Marines currently have a 51% win rate which is probably exactly where GW would like them. A basic Chaos Marine has the same stats as an Intercessor and costs 18 points (10% less). Granted they have a standard bolt gun rather than the improved bolt rifle of an Intercessor. If they have a chainsword, their loadout is very close to that of an Assault Intercessor, albeit 1 point cheaper. Is the AI's improved bolt pistol worth 1 point? Maybe. Is the Bolt Rifle worth 2 points more than a bolt gun? Probably not. This suggests there is room to trim 1 point of regular Intercessors and 2-3 off Tactical Marines.

 

To be fair, if we are looking at changing Troops units by 1-3 points per model, that is not really going to make a significant difference so I think we need to look for other reasons which CSM are performing so much better than their loyalist counterparts. A Hellbrute has pretty much the same stats as a Dreanought but a Hellbrute with MM costs 110 points whereas a Dread with MM costs 125 points, not to mention that Hellbrutes get to reroll 1s to Hit as soon as they start losing wounds. This highlights the sort of differences that need to be made to Marines. 10-15% off the competitive units and some rules buffs to bring them back up to where they need to be.

 

We also need to look at support units. A Primaris Captain costs 90 points which is the same cost and abilities as a Chaos Lord. Now the problem is Chaos Lords are hardly ever seen in competitive lists. Daemon Princes and Lord Discordants are the primary choices for beatstick HQs with Masters of Possession and Dark Apostles making up the normal roster of support HQs. Marines have nothing that can compete in Beatstick terms with that. The only choice that comes even close is a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf and that requires fully tooling up with wargear, relics and WLTs to come even close to matching what Chaos can do out of the box.

 

Now maybe the monsters are part of the unique appeal of Chaos and the Imperium should not get direct analogues. But they do need something to even the balance. Whether that is something like buffing unique units like Land Speeders or providing better synergies between units, I don't know. But Chaos Marines are currently a great example of a codex with lots of interesting builds and a variety of competitive units with a win rate that is pretty much exactly where it should be. I really hope GW playtests any new Marine codex thoroughly against the Chaos codex as that is where the balance needs to be.