Will HH plastics migrate to 40K?

[Karhedron]

A new Marine codex is rumoured to be coming in the 9 months so I was wondering what the chances are of some of the recent Horus Heresy releases migrating to 40K. When 8th edition dropped, we acquired options for the plastic Contemptor and relic marks of Terminator armour. This time around we potentially have:

 

• Sicaran
• Kratos
• Leviathan
• Spartan
• Contemptor (with a wider range of plastic guns)

 

I am really hoping that we get these in 40K as proper codex options (not the FW list). Does anyone think that is likely or am I getting my hopes up for nothing? Will GW want to maintain a distinction between the two games?

[Lord Marshal]

It's a good question, because I could see it going either way. On one hand, they've had FW rules before, are popular kits, are new and would fit lorewise. 

 

On the other hand, the Marine codex is already full to bursting and technically they're marketed for Heresy first and foremost. I know Relic Terminators have an entry in the SM 'dex but do Contemptors also get one? Since technically they've had a plastic kit since 2016.

 

I'd err on the side of "Yes, probably" but equally I'd not be shocked if they weren't. Or it'll be one of those weird cases where some stuff gets rules in the SM 'dex, but others don't.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Lord Marshal

[Brother_Angelus]

It seems unlikely to me, as it would go against the inevitable transition to a primaris only roster.

[Doctor Perils]

Seems likely, especially considering there are already datasheets for some of them in pdf format

 

What would be nice is if some of those were also included in the CSM unit list...

[Khornestar]

Tough to say. One would think they would want to sell more of these kits to the largest demographic in the hobby (astartes, an assumption but seems like a plausible one), but things we think care no-brainers don’t always align with what ends up happening.

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Khornestar

[Bouargh]

I would say no. I see it staying as it is now: some datasheets online and  rule that use CPs as cyrrently.

Why? Well mainly because now that HH is out and growing, the classic marine will I guess be phased out of 40k, just like their stuff... drop pods and scouts being listed as HH entries too may be a good sign of what will happen.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Drop pods and scouts were always in 30k, so don't think that's a useful observation beyond that no new kit is coming for them.

[LameBeard]

There is still a chance they will split the codex into 2: Primaris and Firstborn.

 

Firstborn can include Heresy Plastics so it would be a chunky good range of existing kits. 

 

It would remove some of the bloat and still allow the “Firstborn aren’t going anywhere” line to be held.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

57 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Drop pods and scouts were always in 30k, so don't think that's a useful observation beyond that no new kit is coming for them.

 

Not Hammerfall Bunkers though.

[Doghouse]

This is a tough one.

 

I personally think they'd be daft to split firstborn stuff away from Primaris because it increases the options for the Astartes players and allows for greater creativity. But GW aren't me and I think they have a vision of a Primaris only future with traditional Astartes and their vehicles being solely in 30k.

 

[Halandaar]

2 hours ago, Brother_Angelus said:

It seems unlikely to me, as it would go against the inevitable transition to a primaris only roster.

 

Until we start seeing in-production Firstborn kits dropped from the Codex, this "inevitable transition" remains hypothetical after 2 editions and 3 new Codexes.

 

Anyway, didn't the Kratos have 40k rules released for it already?

Edited November 27, 2022 by Halandaar

[LameBeard]

14 minutes ago, Doghouse said:

This is a tough one.

 

I personally think they'd be daft to split firstborn stuff away from Primaris because it increases the options for the Astartes players and allows for greater creativity. But GW aren't me and I think they have a vision of a Primaris only future with traditional Astartes and their vehicles being solely in 30k.

 

I think the vision has changed - they will allow that creativity and keep firstborn going (dual 30k / 40k kits justifies it) - they just want to charge you for two books for that privilege. How GW is that!?

 

[Bouargh]

2 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Drop pods and scouts were always in 30k, so don't think that's a useful observation beyond that no new kit is coming for them.

 

Exactly - They have always been there and rebranding in the GW site to get 2 entries for the same thing was not necesary, which makes me think that it is a way to say " this way out please...".

BTW, did you note that the Legion scout description sattes that the options in the kut are not all covered by the Liber Astartes. also worth noting that under web rebrand the entry is "legiones-astartes-scout-squad-gw-2022".

 

1 hour ago, LameBeard said:

There is still a chance they will split the codex into 2: Primaris and Firstborn.

 

 

I would like as it would be a way to maintain my whole army on stream - I only have fisrt born - but I doubt it will happen. It would probably turn out being a slow organized death for the first born, under obsolecence driving force... Don´t hurt anyone frontaly, but let them die slowly... or shift them to HH and no one will note. But this is another story and if we go this way we will go out of the topic.

[MARK0SIAN]

I think the current method of a FW index for the heresy units and some sort of tax to take them is a good compromise. These machines and units are meant to be rare by the 41st millennium, they shouldn’t just be as generally ubiquitous as the dedicated 40K kits.

 

On a personal note, I also like the fact that some stuff/units is heresy specific. It gives that game and those armies a morse separate identity than a 40K army.

 

Lastly, they haven’t even figured out how to make the existing non-dread vehicles worth bothering with for 40K marines, the heresy ones would be just as disappointing.

 

Having said all this though, it will all come down to if they think it will be profitable to do so. If they deem it worthwhile they’ll be included, if not then they’ll stay in the index. 

[Noserenda]

Dont these things all pretty much already have 40k rules? Id expect any new weapons etc to get updated when the new codex drops and they do the usual FW update.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I think the current method of a FW index for the heresy units and some sort of tax to take them is a good compromise. These machines and units are meant to be rare by the 41st millennium, they shouldn’t just be as generally ubiquitous as the dedicated 40K kits.

 

It may be fluffy but it does not strike me as particularly balanced. Also a lot of the FW units are less powerful than their codex counterparts (or at least side-grades). In each edition there are usually 1 or 2 units that come out particularly powerful (dual-Volkite Contemptors currently) but they tend to be the exception rather than the rule.

 

I would rather put these units on an equal footing and simply play-test them to get the points right. I guess that is why I would like to see them in the main codex as a lot of people tend to assume the worst when FW units get wheeled out.

49 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Dont these things all pretty much already have 40k rules? Id expect any new weapons etc to get updated when the new codex drops and they do the usual FW update.

 

FW is not popular in my area as it is still tainted by the whole pay-to-play perception.

[MARK0SIAN]

23 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

It may be fluffy but it does not strike me as particularly balanced. Also a lot of the FW units are less powerful than their codex counterparts (or at least side-grades). In each edition there are usually 1 or 2 units that come out particularly powerful (dual-Volkite Contemptors currently) but they tend to be the exception rather than the rule.

 

I would rather put these units on an equal footing and simply play-test them to get the points right. I guess that is why I would like to see them in the main codex as a lot of people tend to assume the worst when FW units get wheeled out.

 

FW is not popular in my area as it is still tainted by the whole pay-to-play perception.

Yeah, from a balance point of view I agree with you and I’ve never liked the way FW units seem to get second rate treatment from the rules writers nor the unwarranted suspicion they get from sections of the player base.
 

My preference for the index stems from wanting to keep in line with the narrative that these are relics and not readily available. Kratos tanks were super popular when they first came out and if their 40K rules were good and in the main codex then we’d just have seen wall to wall kratos tanks instead of them being a rare sight in the 41st millennium.

[TheWarmaster]

9 hours ago, Brother_Angelus said:

It seems unlikely to me, as it would go against the inevitable transition to a primaris only roster.

This. Literally this. 

 

We all know that GW are eventually going to completely bench Firstborn Astartes once they've released Primaris equivalents for everything.. like Assault/Jump troops and Terminators etc. 

 

I can honestly see Space Marines having two codexes, one for pure Primaris and one for pure Firstborn.. and then, after that transition, they'll eventually squat the Firstborn one and just move forward with Primaris only. 

 

They're even setting this up in the Lore. The Imperium aren't making Firstborn Astartes anymore.. the ones that are left are mostly crossing over the Rubicon and becoming Primaris themselves.. the others are dying off in combat as the years pass.

 

 

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think it's a missed opportunity financially not to do like a primaris pintle sprue for the vehicles and let folks make the vehicles all primaris, but that's my opinion.

[jarms48]

1 hour ago, TheWarmaster said:

I can honestly see Space Marines having two codexes, one for pure Primaris and one for pure Firstborn.. and then, after that transition, they'll eventually squat the Firstborn one and just move forward with Primaris only. 

 

This is what I've been saying too. 

[DesuVult]

2 hours ago, TheWarmaster said:

We all know that GW are eventually going to completely bench Firstborn Astartes once they've released Primaris equivalents for everything.. like Assault/Jump troops and Terminators etc.

"We" really don't. 

[Noserenda]

Ick, tweaking points for In universe is always piss poor games design. 0-1 a thing if you have to (But you really dont) but on a company scale game like 40k rarity is nigh irrelevant unless a thing is literally unique.

Bit sad people are still being weird about forgeworld too, sure it had the odd OP unit, but the vast majority of its output was always a bit crap, semi deliberately due to the way they did points costs skewing higher than the studio, but then the Studio has written all their rules for years now so they are of comparable quality to anything else *cough* :D  

[Brother_Angelus]

9 hours ago, Halandaar said:

 

Until we start seeing in-production Firstborn kits dropped from the Codex, this "inevitable transition" remains hypothetical after 2 editions and 3 new Codexes.

 

Anyway, didn't the Kratos have 40k rules released for it already?

 

The firstborn units have gotten progressively worse over time, and more roles have been fulfilled by primaris releases. Firstborn aren't getting new models outside those being ported from 30k. It's reached a point where they could easily function as separate armies.

 

I'm not claiming some insider knowledge, it's just my opinion of the way things are trending.

[DesuVult]

3 minutes ago, Brother_Angelus said:

 

The firstborn units have gotten progressively worse over time,

Firstborn units are currently better than primaris with the redemptor as the main exception.

[jarms48]

12 hours ago, Brother_Angelus said:

It seems unlikely to me, as it would go against the inevitable transition to a primaris only roster.

 

I could see a first born codex, but moving to a trend where the only first born models are the plastics from the HH game. It's an easy way to cross sell and make more money.