Will HH plastics migrate to 40K?

[DesuVult]

GW even makes one off kill teams have 40k compatible rules and in AoS the newest book is StD and is pretty much clogged with rules for models from secondary games.  Cutting the brand new mkVI or the ever popular cataphractii from 40k feels like a move GW would not do.

[MegaVolt87]

Time for firstborn to split from primaris in a seperate dex. The game and the factions will be healthier for the split where they can't combine. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by MegaVolt87

[Special Officer Doofy]

Nah, keep 30k stuff in 30k. 40k Primaris is the future (like it or not), and chaos doesn't want any perfect looking condition 30k technology in 40k.

[DesuVult]

18 hours ago, Lord Marshal said:

I know Relic Terminators have an entry in the SM 'dex but do Contemptors also get one? Since technically they've had a plastic kit since 2016.

They have one, they are the standard contemptor entry with the fixed weapon options.  Relic contemptor has the resin weapon options.

[MegaVolt87]

3 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Nah, keep 30k stuff in 30k. 40k Primaris is the future (like it or not), and chaos doesn't want any perfect looking condition 30k technology in 40k.

 

Make the CSM primaris then as well if they can't take 30k stuff. The carry over is fine, not every loyalist or CSM is the same tech level. 

[Lord_Ikka]

There's an equal chance that any one of these will happen-

 

1 Middle Ground- GW splits Primaris and Firstborn into two codices, giving Firstborn a buff (maybe Ld to represent their experience) while Primaris keep their Attack bonus

2 In-Universe Progression(?)- GW squats Firstborn entirely in 10th/11th ed, after enough in-universe time has gone by to have all remaining Firstborn either converted to Primaris or die off 

   2a GW releases a Firstborn (Legends) index/pdf, with all Firstborn units becoming Legends and no longer tournament legal but still playable in casual

3 Attempted Compromise- GW has the next SM codex include all current HH plastic miniatures in it, keeping the current number of datasheets the same by condensing others (example- HQs get condensed to one or two entries with different wargear stats/options rather than different datasheets)

4 Nothing Changes- GW releases the 10th ed SM codex with the same current sheets but keeps HH stuff as Imperial Armor relic/martial legacy options

 

Of course, because it's GW and their decisions are never quite what we are able to understand, trying to predict what they do is really just entertainment.

[DesuVult]

I think limited 30k access is fine, that stuff is supposed to be relic equipment.  CSM I really feel need more access to some 30k stuff because in many areas they never moved on from it.  Loyalists should have some, in novels it is cool when a chapter pulls out their one relic tank from the heresy.  Some chapters are noted for having more of that relic stuff than others.  DA in lore arm some units with their heresy era weapons or earlier.  I would say throw them in the codices, put some limits on them, but also have options to circumvent those limits in a narrative way. 

 

What GW will do with them I feel is hard to judge.  They put initial 30k plastic stuff in the loyalist codex and have kept up rules for a lot of 30k stuff.  Stuff like the sicaran is plastic now, it's on the GW website, and it does have 40k rules, but GW can be weird so I am not certain what they will do.  I feel it is most likely GW will put anything plastic in the next loyalist codex and remove the option from CSM because they don't want a mix of plastic and resin in the FW book because the new plastic 30k stuff isn't sold on the FW site anymore and traditionally CSM have more limited access to options while loyalists get whatever is available.  An example of how I could see it working is the first plastic contemptor, loyalists got it, chaos didn't.

Edited November 28, 2022 by DesuVult

[Robbienw]

9 hours ago, TheWarmaster said:

This. Literally this. 

 

We all know that GW are eventually going to completely bench Firstborn Astartes once

 

I find this opinion to have the same vibe and energy as the 2018-2019 ‘the heresy is dead’ hot take 

[Rik Lightstar]

2 hours ago, Robbienw said:

I find this opinion to have the same vibe and energy as the 2018-2019 ‘the heresy is dead’ hot take 

 

We all know that it's absolutely guaranteed to happen any minute now, GW wants to have a smaller range of models to make and sell. That's why they haven't introduced any new kits for ages, they haven't split factions out and expanded their ranges and they haven't brought back factions that were gone for decades.

 

Once something is Squatted it's gone FOREVER, we all KNOW that's what that means right, right?

 

Sarcasm over. No Firstborn were harmed in the making of this post.

 

Rik

[Halandaar]

9 hours ago, Brother_Angelus said:

The firstborn units have gotten progressively worse over time,

 

I mean the majority of them got objectively better this edition with their statlines being bumped to the same as Primaris. Also I just had a quick skim of top-3 placing Marine lists for October and the majority of them are dominated by Firstborn units - various lists found places for Devastators, Vanguard Veterans, Attack Bikes, Company Veterans and a bunch of Chapter-specific fistborn units featured too, like Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Blood Claws, Wolf Guard, Long Fangs and Ravenwing.

[Lord_Ikka]

7 minutes ago, Halandaar said:

 

I mean the majority of them got objectively better this edition with their statlines being bumped to the same as Primaris. Also I just had a quick skim of top-3 placing Marine lists for October and the majority of them are dominated by Firstborn units - various lists found places for Devastators, Vanguard Veterans, Attack Bikes, Company Veterans and a bunch of Chapter-specific fistborn units featured too, like Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Blood Claws, Wolf Guard, Long Fangs and Ravenwing.

Agreed- right now Firstborn are very much better than Primaris on the tournament scene in general. There are some outliers, those being Infiltrators, Redemptor Dreads, Eliminators, and Eradicators, but that is mainly because they have a stat line (Redemptors) or mechanic (Inflitrators forward deploy, Eliminators move-shoot-move, Eradicators double shoot) that outperform or at least give the Firstborn in their slots a run for their points. Overall Primaris units are having a tough time combating their high points costs, lack of flexibility in infantry squads (Intercessors tend to lose to Tacticals because of special/heavy weapons), or over-flexibility in vehicles (Repulsors/Executioners having too main guns strapped on them for varied targets). 

[RWJP]

23 hours ago, Lord Marshal said:

I know Relic Terminators have an entry in the SM 'dex but do Contemptors also get one? Since technically they've had a plastic kit since 2016.

Yes, Contemptors have had an entry in the Space Marine Codex since the monopose plastic Contemptor was released. It's cut down compared to the FW Relic Contemptor rules as it only included the options for the Kheres Assault Cannon and Multi-Melta as those were the only weapons included in the kit.

[TheWarmaster]

14 hours ago, DesuVult said:

"We" really don't. 

We do though. It's glaringly obvious which direction they're going with this. 
I personally hate it. I don't like Primaris... but I had to swallow the same bitter pill that everybody else is going to have to swallow sooner or later.. It is what it is.

[TheWarmaster]

7 hours ago, Robbienw said:

I find this opinion to have the same vibe and energy as the 2018-2019 ‘the heresy is dead’ hot take 

Not really. 
I'm just accepting the inevitable. 
I'm sure everybody else will catch up when they realise thery arent making new firstborn models, that they're only bringing out primaris models and that they're literally writing them out in the lore.. When they bring new sculpts of old characters out.. what type of Astartes are they..? Ah yeah.. Primaris. 
 

[Robbienw]

No really, this is what i have found of your opinion.

 

The only thing that's inevitable is GW revisiting old designs and themes periodically and releasing new versions of old classics.  Many times over the years doomsters have told me something was never going to get a model/was dead/was unsupported/was squatted etc, and they have always, always turned out to be wrong 

 

Also worth noting, there have been loads of firstborn models following the release of primaris.  I am able to list them on request 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Robbienw

[Ahzek451]

I can see a lot of excess bloat overall if this is done, but if GW intends to eventually axe firstborn, I think it would make sense if they developed a new "chaos sprue" for all the plastic HH vehicles for all chaos armies. A sprue with icons, spikes and conversion bits. 40k Chaos marines are supposed to be using the same vehicles from the  old days and this would help further diferentiate between primaris space marines floaty tanks and chaos space marines classic treaded vehicles. And an opportunity for GW to open into a new market for 40k. Seems a wasted opportunity if they don't. 

Personally, I plan to chaos-ify the new plastic HH land raider, rhino and predator for 40k. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Ahzek451

[Rik Lightstar]

I'd like to apologise for my part in continuing the OFF TOPIC "Firstborn are Staying/Firstborn are going" discussion here when it has been had in so many other threads that have subsequently (correctly) been locked. 

 

I recognise my failing and will be sure to correct it.

 

To hopefully contribute more constructively..........

 

I think that all of the Horus Heresy non-infantry plastic kits released so far will be available to 40k Marine players when the next Codex drops. Some of the vehicles may not have all of the weapon options available in 40k or there may be some 0-1 or CP based restrictions (probably based on a Relic of the Armoury type keyword)

 

For infantry it's not a very different story, I don't play HH so I'm not sure on all of the list options but don't Legion Veterans have very similar load-out options to the current 40k Tactical Squads? If so I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a MKVI Legion Veterans Upgrade Kit with enough parts to make two 10 man Veteran Squads when added to the MKVI box. The MKIII and MKIV boxes already come with the parts to do this as long as you're happy with Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers.

 

Horus Heresy Plastic Characters pretty much fit straight in with the addition of Volkite weapons to the character wargear options.

 

Rik

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think they will be in the next book. The contemptor already has an entry so your just adding wargear. The other 4 make sense in the range. If page count is an issue they can consolidate a ton of entries gladiators, storm speeders, predators, land raiders, and even the repulsors don't need separate data sheets. Heck they can keep going and consolidate in the phobos characters with their corresponding entries.

[sarabando]

The kratos would be dumb they are supposed to be rare already in 30k having them in every 40k army is just silly

[tychobi]

To be frank 30k models are used regularly in 40k.  Imperial Armor has been plaguing 40k meta for ages a lot of it 30k silliness.  Mostly a problem of rules but over all it has given Forge World a bad name in the 40k community and a lot of eye rolls when an Ultramarine Scorpius no one has heard of is wiping all the infantry off of objectives shooting twice wile bombing about at 12" or Leviathans gunning down titanic Knights with ease.  Sicarans are still a staple around here.  Nearly everything in the 30k range has a spot in 40k or has been roped in as a proxy at some point.  From a 40k player perspective it is really annoying.  

[Halandaar]

1 hour ago, sarabando said:

The kratos would be dumb they are supposed to be rare already in 30k having them in every 40k army is just silly

 

I mean if we're going down that route, Roboute Guilliman is rare in 40k (there is literally one of him) and yet he seems to fight every battle going.

[Bouargh]

3 hours ago, Rik Lightstar said:

 

Horus Heresy Plastic Characters pretty much fit straight in with the addition of Volkite weapons to the character wargear options.

 

Rik

 

 why not? Afterall the Bladeguard lieutnant has a neo-volkite, so introducing this in larger quantities would make sense.... I second this

 

1 hour ago, tychobi said:

 Nearly everything in the 30k range has a spot in 40k or has been roped in as a proxy at some point.  From a 40k player perspective it is really annoying.  

 

This is a very good point. Many of these units fielded through the FW book are or have been made redundant in a way. As such you field them only for the cool factor. Some may still be distinctive though (Achilles LR for example) but is it enough to bring them in any game that is not Apoc sized? I have some of these beast and clearly I do not put them out in 40k games except if a 5000+ points battles... I guess they are part of the Folklore now.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Bouargh
Typo

[Craig]

I hope they do put 40k rules out for the new HH releases. I would really like to see some Fallen armies using the Heresy box so that DA players can use all those rules they have for playing against Fallen but have never used because nobody plays Fallen.

[LameBeard]

1 hour ago, Craig said:

I hope they do put 40k rules out for the new HH releases. I would really like to see some Fallen armies using the Heresy box so that DA players can use all those rules they have for playing against Fallen but have never used because nobody plays Fallen.

This is such a good idea. Codex Fallen: immediately ports 30k range to 40k, and is also very cool. They might even give it to us as a White Dwarf supplement. Or if they make a Luther model, go the whole hog for the upcoming supposed return of …

[Cpt_Reaper]

I think Imperial Armour is the way to go. It worked fine before, hell the Compendium should have worked but it was immediately forgotten. Not to mention that absolutely stupid rule Martial Legacy. The entire Guard tank range in the book is about to be broken by the new codex.

 

If GW does a new Compendium and actually keeps it up to date then I'm all for it. I'd love a "War Machines of [Faction]" series of books again but I'll try and be realistic.