Guilliman rules rumours discussion

[Captain Idaho]

So how do we feel about these rumoured rules? I think they're fairly tidy, though perhaps not very exciting.

 

 

320pts... about time he went down in points. Even with this improved version of him.

 

The Emperor's Sword is just a sweep attack weapon now and that feels similar to everyone else. Inevitable and actually really solid for Guilliman as a mechanic. At these rumoured stats, he'll be using the sword against most targets since he'll have 14 attacks and wound T4 on a 2 plus at D2. The -3 AP is disappointing for the Emperor's Sword mind. Especially in this Armour of Contempt era.

 

The Hand of Dominion is good. The old faithful for large targets and with it's strength boost from the rumoured S7 of Guilliman, we're seeing strength 14 so Dreadnoughts and Monsters beware!

 

The rerolls of 1s for hit and wound rolls is standard for a decent range so what we'd expect. Coupled with giving a single core unit +1 to hit and wound is very solid. The ideas swilling round my head on that... 10 Terminators hitting on 2s, wounding with +1 and rerolling 1s all round is 40 shots!

 

Objective secured including for himself... another solid rule.

 

His necromancy spell is also much improved. I mean, rolling a 1 in a tournament might break your heart but otherwise it's consistent.

 

Now, the real talking point I think many will bring up is the change to his Invulnerable save. 3+ is very strong so going to a 4+ is a bit of a downwards move. However, the rumoured -1 damage is very good. I can't do the maths but I think this comes out as a good trade?

 

Also, the loss of 3 Command Points according to the rumour with them not being mentioned, is a little painful.

 

So let's have at it guys? What do we think of these rules rumoured and leaks?

[Karhedron]

He looks solid but still a little underwhelming. While his buffs have gone up a bit, too many of the other rules changes feel like side-grades. He is the last loyal son of the Emperor and the Lord Commander of the whole Imperium. Somehow I expect more.

 

The current question with Guilliman is whether he brings enough extra buffs for the additional points to be worth taking over Calgar. I think that same question remains unclear in the rumoured changes.

[Lord_Ikka]

More tactical, less outright killy than something like Abaddon or Morty. He will need some finesse work really well, but I think if the rumors are correct he will have a large impact on how Ultras play. With his ObSec aura, suddenly we'll get a version of what the Necrons have with the ObSekh dynasty, in that a large portion of the SM units will be opened up to hold objectives better. Depending on the map, he'll be able to effect units on multiple objectives as well, which will really open up the game for SM. His other auras/buffs are good, but the ObSec one for me is going to really change how I play SM.

 

As for his survivability, yeah, he's going to die more. Even with AoC and -1 Damage, losing the 3++ is going to hurt. The only plus is that at least he's much more likely to get back up with more wounds than previously. The command point loss is puzzling, unless there is something we aren't seeing that will make up for it. 

 

[Flash of Azure]

In my humble opinion the Obsec bubble is what will push him forward. I just think a reviving obsec aura can make for fun gambits at the least.  Sadly without the context of Seal of Oath and Sons of Guilliman kinda just have to nail bite.  Also for durability you should assume he is screened basically the entire game until A)something goes horrible wrong B) You're charging.  So I can see why they think he is worth so many points if you look at it that way. I wish he could go in a HQ slot to save points tbh

[Casual Heresy]

Overall I'd be happy. The re-roll 1s aura going down to 9 inches is annoying but if it still applies to anything including vehicles and we gain re-roll 1s to wound as well I'm more than happy.

 

320pts I'm happy with, though means a few changes to my current madcap Dual Kratos list, so fingers crossed points go down/my beautiful heavy tanks don't go up in price drastically. The loss of his extra CP is blow.

 

I'll miss the MW on the sword but the proposed rules more than make up for it. -3ap though isn't enough, unless Armour of Contempt is removed from the game.

 

 

[Captain Idaho]

Obviously there may be more to his rules or incomplete/incorrect leaks, but I think he really needs those 3 CP to boost his worth up.

 

Yes I feel much of his stuff is a side-grade. Particularly the unit benefits he brings. Just the standard, top of the faction benefits we expect, brought into line.

 

I like the +1 to hit and +1 to wound thing. The Core units in the army that will benefit greatly really looks interesting. Not just the obvious like Terminators, but consider Hellblasters and Devastators now!

 

Terminators and Vanguard with Thunder Hammers and power Fists would now wound T8 enemies on a 3+, which is not to be sniffed at.

 

Blade guard wounding T4 on a 2+ is funny!

 

The Emperor's Sword is powerful but could be more fun. I liked the Mortal Wounds mechanic and something similar would have been great. The connection to Psychic powers and the Emperor in the theme of the rules is often Mortal Wounds, but we haven't got that here. 

 

He does lack something pretty special, but I think that's the game right now. There's so many special snowflakes that this is how Codex Creep happens. If he was given these rules when the Marines Codex first dropped we'd likely be crowing how our boy is top of the pile. Now he's just like everyone else eh. 

[Mike8404]

2 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

More tactical, less outright killy than something like Abaddon or Morty. He will need some finesse work really well, but I think if the rumors are correct he will have a large impact on how Ultras play. With his ObSec aura, suddenly we'll get a version of what the Necrons have with the ObSekh dynasty, in that a large portion of the SM units will be opened up to hold objectives better. Depending on the map, he'll be able to effect units on multiple objectives as well, which will really open up the game for SM. His other auras/buffs are good, but the ObSec one for me is going to really change how I play SM.

 

As for his survivability, yeah, he's going to die more. Even with AoC and -1 Damage, losing the 3++ is going to hurt. The only plus is that at least he's much more likely to get back up with more wounds than previously. The command point loss is puzzling, unless there is something we aren't seeing that will make up for it. 

 

It'll open up the game for Ultras, but, unless the rest of the subfactions see something similar, 99% of the entire Space Marine faction will still struggle.

[Lord_Ikka]

30 minutes ago, Mike8404 said:

It'll open up the game for Ultras, but, unless the rest of the subfactions see something similar, 99% of the entire Space Marine faction will still struggle.

This is a discussion in the Ultramarines sub-forum...

 

Given that there wasn't any specific rules for Ultras, he may just be fine to take in any SM army without a penalty, or like Abaddon may just give Ultras an extra buff.

[Mike8404]

17 minutes ago, Lord_Ikka said:

This is a discussion in the Ultramarines sub-forum...

 

Given that there wasn't any specific rules for Ultras, he may just be fine to take in any SM army without a penalty, or like Abaddon may just give Ultras an extra buff. 

If what people on the reddit for this leak are right, Marines could get a similar treatment to IG where regiments don't matter and the player picks their abilities or what not. Then you run whatever character and there's your army, or however it works with their dex.  I hope they don't do that with the established Chapters, but that would be nice for successors without rules.  Ultras successors should be able to take Gorillaman

Edited December 5, 2022 by Mike8404

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I was expecting more tbh. Just look what a Juggernaught in melee Abbadon is now. Will Guilliman have a wound cap now?

[Captain Idaho]

Interesting point about Guilliman's utility in other factions aside from Ultramarines. I imagine it would work alongside a similar vein to Abaddon so he can fit into armies. Maybe even have Agent of the Imperium. 

 

Be scary to see Imperial Guard with him as a counter attack, alongside Bull Ogryns!

 

Anyway, I'm hoping for the 3 Command Points being added into the army still somewhere. Even if that's an Ultramarines only benefit. This would mean I can surround him with 1st Company and build an awesome themed list.

 

@BLACK BLŒ FLY oh yeah, I fully expect that in the rules somewhere. A wound cap seems mandatory at this point!

Edited December 5, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[The Emperors Champion22]

i dont think that his auras should be restricted to core, hes the lord commander of the imperium he should be inspiring everyone, and getting those buffs as an example of what to do. also should he not have access to more than one WT like mortarion, magnus, and trajann? he needs +1 damage and +1 ap on his sword as well, full rerolls and ignoring invulns seem like a no brainer too for the position he fills in the army. 

[Prot]

This kind of stinks in my opinion.Granted I put my UM's away because I got tired of how dated the rules were and I felt like I was always competing against a 'newer' codex creep kind of army. 

 

So that being said, this feels super underwhelming when you think everything 'new' looks old in 3 months. So it looks very mediocre now, and will perhaps be outright 'bad' in 3 months.

 

The reason I say this is Abaddon is still better. He has deepstrike, moves through terrain easier, has a FULL reroll to hit and wound (I think is better than +1)

 

I can live with the 4++, but you folks gotta realize for 300 points Abaddon has a wound cap, and EVERY chaos mark. This means with the Mark of Tzeentch for example, Abaddon ignores the first failed save every round, on top of the wound cap! To me that is much more potent than -1 damage.

 

And on the -1 damage.... I'd like to see half damage like Vaul and Calgar have (In lieu of a phase cap).

 

Abaddon can also be healed, and leverages every strat and psychic power that possibly be pointed at a model with that specific mark. For those that don't know chaos well, this is a lot of great little bonus rules that on their own aren't anything special, but together they are quite decent. 

 

The sword doesn't seem as good either. I've done some serious damage with Abaddon and then watched him survive a very respectable amount of damage that I believe would put this Guilliman down. I could be wrong though.

 

Maybe the biggest thing is the aura's. To be honest with Abaddon and Guilliman they are VERY easy to avoid. Good, smart opponents jus make wide circles around my Abaddon, and the same was true of Guilliman. To me these guys really come in to their own in two phases: The phase where your aura is all you can use from these expensive units, and the late phase of the game where your opponent has possibly run out of room to run and you can finally swing that sword.

 

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah the rumors so far are completely underwhelming -> being a Primarch you’d think he’d be better than Abbadon but no, not based on these rumors. I truly believe the development does not like Space Marines for whatever reason.

[Captain Idaho]

I definitely agree Guilliman is underwhelming in comparison to Abaddon which is annoying. He's the equivalent of Morvann Vahl which is good and all, but is it a Primarch?

 

But perhaps that's the problem with Abaddon and the rest of the over powered things?

[Brother Sergeant Scarus]

I use Guilliman a lot, and he honestly already pretty solid, he's just obviously not as point and click as say Abaddon. I think, as Idaho says, comparisons against the war master are more of an indication of how over-tuned Abaddon is. 

I'm not super devastated about the loss of mortal wounds, it was nice to have but sometimes it baited people into attacking trying to fish for mortals (which is only really viable against Seal of Oath targets, I find). Any time, for example, someone attacks deathguard terminators with the sword rather than the fist. 

What *does* annoy me is the Sword of the Emperor being two damage. It's so strange. I understand that doubling his attacks and being damage 3 would be very scary, but he's a primarch wielding the sword of the Emperor himself. I am happy to see it ignores phase caps though, I've wanted that for quite some time. 

+1 to hit and wound is really good, especially given the amount of things you can't use re-rolls against in the current meta. 

I suppose, above all, I want to see the whole picture. It's impossible to say one way or another otherwise. Losing the CP buff would hurt massively, but if he gain the Infantry keyword rather than monster I'd be really pleased. It also depends on the strats and so on that we have access to.

 

[NKirkham24]

I would say D3 on the sword would be more approrpriate but I suppose this is what they are play testing for isnt it? Does the sword need a tune up etc?

 

Looking at the leak I hope it isnt the finished article. The WLT mentioned is good, dont get me wrong, but why is the most tactically astute Primarch having 1 trait when his daemonic brothers and a souped up Astartes have 3-4 each? Hopefully there is an additional rule that allows access to all Ultramarine warlord traits etc and this is one that is unique to him.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It is a big mistake to give geedub any credit at all for play testing. I can just hear them now, “This will be sooooo cool !!!”

Edited December 12, 2022 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Prot]

On 12/6/2022 at 7:55 AM, Captain Idaho said:

I definitely agree Guilliman is underwhelming in comparison to Abaddon which is annoying. He's the equivalent of Morvann Vahl which is good and all, but is it a Primarch?

 

But perhaps that's the problem with Abaddon and the rest of the over powered things?

 

So here's the thing I keep telling people from my experience. As someone who has played Chaos for decades, I can tell you right now the vast majority of chaos players are (for lack of a better term) band wagon hoppers. In fact originally I started playing Chaos way back in the day because all the events at GW were always so full of loyalists (of varying types) that they always needed 'bad guys'.

 

So fast forward to the approximate release date of the 'new' (current) Abaddon model. Great model, great rules, but not on par with Guilliman. We are all in agreement (I think) that Abaddon might reach some pinnacle of power, especially as of late, but for the most part Guilliman -should- be more potent. At the very least even if we want to say for sake of argument that Abaddon's sword is equivalent to Guillman's, at the very least Guilliman should be equal if not superior in a leadership role (IE: aura's).

 

The part I'm getting to here is Abaddon actually didn't get better when all is said and done. Bare with me here as I explain my theory....

I think the sword is great, but it's the phase cap, and all the marks that make him so good. BUT he also shot up 300 points.

 

The argument I make with people is this: All last edition I played Abaddon. For fun, in campaigns, and in tournaments. Guess how many times he died? I can count on one hand the amount he died. In my case I can say that unless I was nearly tabled, Abaddon simply could be well guarded, and did not need a phase cap.

 

So what's the difference? Why is he considered so darn good now? It's the codex. Abaddon was always Abaddon, but he was in a very mediocre codex. As they say, "It's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys!"

 

Now the Chaos codex is better, people have flocked to it, and (almost) every Chaos list gets a boost from his presences. Whether or not this is just people taking an easy choice for an HQ or not remains to be seen. But that's my theory. We have way more Chaos players than we've had in years, the book is much improved, and now people are discovering Abaddon for the first time. (trust me there are lots of times I'd go to events and be the only person with Abaddon period.)

 

Guilliman? He was everywhere. For a while those annoying super tank lists with him in the center? That was some nasty stuff. But you look at all the players that used Guilliman and you can bet the second he became less potent the 40K crowd in general took immediate note.

 

I guess it's my long winded way of saying.... I don't think Abaddon is too good. In fact I tell my friends: I will not heal Abaddon, and I will ignore all the marks he has. And I will remove his wound cap for you. (Guess how many times he's died?) In fact I would LOVE it if they nerfed all the stuff I just said and gave me Abaddon at his old points again! It's his aura.... his aura was always good, but with much improved units? It's feels like he's markedly improved.

 

So make Guillian better. He needs to/should be better.  

 

I would go so far as to say make those core units, primaris, etc... better around him. It feels like the 'common marine' (all of them, first born/Primaris) have sunk considerably since release. 

 

That's my big rant. I apologize for the long winded break down. I just strongly believe the "Abaddon" is too good camp comes from an extreme amount of newer Chaos players (or people losing to him). Whatever GW decides, I personally believe it's Guilliman that should be brought up here. 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Prot

[Captain Idaho]

I go the other way - I think the whole of 40K is over tuned. I don't just mean Abaddon. I mean across the board. It's just a game of broken things vs broken things in the feelings of it (though of course the experience may vary) so when I mentioned Abaddon, it was as the main comparison to Guilliman but did not exclude the rest of the game.

 

In light of 40K though, if everything else isn't going to be toned down, Guilliman needs to go up. I hold my hands up to that and agree with your assessment there.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have mixed feelings about Abbadon and his current rules… most anything he touches dies and the Master of Possession can restore some wounds. He is extremely dangerous and can wreck armies solo. So I do think he’s too good. A newb has a chance to win with him versus very experienced players. To me it’s a joke any legion can take him.
 

On the other hand the rumors concerning Guilliman are very frustrating but not really surprising to me.

Edited December 12, 2022 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Prot]

That's fair to say. I just note he was so similar before, but in a cruddy codex and the Black Legion rules were horrid so we just never saw him at tournaments. 

 

Idaho is right I think too... the game has become so killy around the dated marines it just feels like we need a lot of retooling and part of it has to be Guilliman. (especially if rumours are true and the Lion comes out.)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Indeed.

[NKirkham24]

The game is overly killy, but I suppose that's a different discussion. 

 

On Guilliman, the comparison to Abaddon in the current edition is obvious as the head of their faction. Based on the fluff, Guilliman should be better than Abaddon, and I suppose looking at these changes through that lens they seem a little lacklustre. 

 

I believe Valrak mentioned he isnt hearing of any supplements coming before 10th edition, so it may well be that these are 10th edition rules at which point the context shifts a little?

[Prot]

21 hours ago, NKirkham24 said:

The game is overly killy, but I suppose that's a different discussion. 

 

On Guilliman, the comparison to Abaddon in the current edition is obvious as the head of their faction. Based on the fluff, Guilliman should be better than Abaddon, and I suppose looking at these changes through that lens they seem a little lacklustre. 

 

I believe Valrak mentioned he isnt hearing of any supplements coming before 10th edition, so it may well be that these are 10th edition rules at which point the context shifts a little?

 

If the above is true, it means we are carrying over the concept of "core" into 10th which I was really hoping we'd ditch. 

 

Of Guilliman's rules (Since I don't know the timing of him getting up from the dead, which I will fail more than I pass somehow) I would say it is his Obsec Aura to Core AND Characters (including himself) that makes him most appealing. I still want to see a reroll wounds to UM's though.