Do you think firstborn marines will be discontinued?

[Marshal Reinhard]

3 minutes ago, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

Incorrect. He isn't using the word bad, you are. I think you should probably go back and read my original response to you again, Reinhard. If you're going to argue from a point of logic then your logic has to track, and yours does not.

 

Neither of us are saying Primaris being added is bad in this context, but they are the cause of the book being so much larger and messier. And I state very clearly that the solution to this could be axing either one, or combining them. But the solution does not excuse the cause.

 

Further, it's pointless either way. But unless you can go back in time and change what Space Marines were before other things got added to them, you can't really argue what is causing the problem of the book being huge.

Yeah, "Primaris is the bad" is my own characterization of his posts in general. It quite clearly seeps through what he writes.

 

As for reading your post, you haven't exactly enticed me particularly well. Just saying that my logic does not track doesn't do you any favors either.

[Kallas]

Just now, Marshal Reinhard said:

Yeah, "Primaris is the bad" is my own characterization of his posts in general. It quite clearly seeps through what he writes.

I've never hidden my opinions on Primaris. I personally wish they'd never existed.

 

But misconstruing my actual words is on you, not me.

[Marshal Reinhard]

5 minutes ago, Kallas said:

As Valkenhayn said, either can be removed to resolve the issue, but the issue was created by the introduction of Primaris.

Yes. Pardon me, but so :cuss:ing what? It has no bearing on what should then be done post this point.

[Orange Knight]

Let's take a trip through the past.

 

5th Edition - Devastators with Las Cannons and Plasma Cannons are the best. Everyone is building their models this way.

In 7th and 8th it's all about Grav Cannons, time to buy the same kit again or rip out the old guns.

9th comes along and it's all about Meltas. Again, time to change up your existing models.

 

In 10th, they'll probably limit the number of the same guns you can take so the unit will have to be adapted again. 

 

People want more of this by merging existing units? No thanks!

 

Some will say they don't care about the meta or what's most effective. That's great, in which case you should have no objections to units being moved to Legends. You can still play them in casual games and even balance them yourselves.

 

Alternatively, take a look at Primaris Eradicators. They look better than any old Devastator squad and their weapons will never be redundant in the particular unit. Same with the Hellblasters, and (ugly as their guns are) the Desolators. These new units are much better designed from a tabletop point of view. 

 

Going back to the classic range - Assault Marines have been redundant for 12 years or more. Same with Tactical Terminators, and myriad of weapon options across various units that exists, but in truth adds nothing of actual value. 

 

Primaris units generally cleaned all this up. Each one is built around a specific weapon and function. There is overlap with some (and some aren't great), but it gives the player more interesting choice, and even the ability to build a force around different types of armour.

 

They should never sacrifice the elegance or simplicity of Primaris units by merging them with the old. Removal of key words is fine.

[Kallas]

Just now, Marshal Reinhard said:

Yes. Pardon me, but so :cuss:ing what? It has no bearing on what should then be done post this point.

Well here's a thought: If Primaris are the cause of the issue, why shouldn't they be the ones to be removed?

 

That is the logic behind the bloat discussion: it was said that the 'Marine line is bloated, that's why we should remove Firstborn' (paraphrased from Orane Knight's posts) and my response was that Primaris caused the bloat, so logically they should be removed (or not added when they would cause bloat: eg, Outriders which are literally just Bikers with Chainswords and no other options).

 

You came in hot saying that it's because of my dislike of Primaris. I do dislike Primaris, but my argument was founded on actual logic.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

You have swapped the idea of people removing weapon loadouts from the table for people removing entire models from the table, then supplemented it with your opinion that the new models look better.

 

'I haven't seen a Melta Devistator since Plasma Devistators got so good.'

Will Become

'I haven't seen an Eradicator since Hellblasters got so good.'

 

As long as you realize that this is the extent of what you're suggesting, and the only functional change it has is alienating other players who don't have your asthetic preferences, I have nothing else to add.

[Marshal Reinhard]

11 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Well here's a thought: If Primaris are the cause of the issue, why shouldn't they be the ones to be removed?

 

Here's an opposing one, why should they be? Can you give me anything besides favoritism? 

 

There's no actual logical link between introduction of Primaris causing bloat and therefor canning primaris. Its entirely sentimental on your part. You feel offended they came into being, therefor they need to be punished, and you try and pass off this as logic

 

If a basket can't fit a pound of old apples and a pound of new apples, there's no logical chain that compels the removal of the new apples over the old.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Marshal Reinhard
grammar

[Kallas]

 

3 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Let's take a trip through the past.

 

5th Edition - Devastators with Las Cannons and Plasma Cannons are the best. Everyone is building their models this way.

In 7th and 8th it's all about Grav Cannons, time to buy the same kit again or rip out the old guns.

9th comes along and it's all about Meltas. Again, time to change up your existing models.

 

In 10th, they'll probably limit the number of the same guns you can take so the unit will have to be adapted again. 

 

People want more of this by merging existing units? No thanks

1: Nobody has to rip apart their models

2: Perfect balance is not realistically acheivable, but some form of balance to make each option useable is.

 

Just because something is not the absolute best option does not mean it is not viable; and just because it's not the absolute best option does not mean it should be gotten rid of.

 

Case in point: Suppressors 

And what about Hellblasters, or even Intercessors? One weapon type is always "the best" (for Intercessors it's almost always the Auto Bolt Rifle, because volume is king). What happens when 10th rolls around and suddenly Stalker Bolt Rifles are best? Well, gotta rip off those Autos now!

 

Your point is nothing.

 

3 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Some will say they don't care about the meta or what's most effective. That's great, in which case you should have no objections to units being moved to Legends. You can still play them in casual games and even balance them yourselves.

There is a significant difference between "not optimal" and "Legends, aka gone from the collective memory of the playerbase at large and entirely non-useable in a competitive setting."

 

2 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

take a look at Primaris Eradicators. They look better than any old Devastator squad

Entirely subjective.

 

10 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

These new units are much better designed from a tabletop point of view. 

How? They are designed in a straightforward manner (ie, having little to no variables), but how exactly is that better, specifically?

 

If anything, being straightforward and simple is not better from a gaming point of view, because it limits your options and flexibility. Tactical Marines, for example, can bring additional firepower of a particular kind to supplement your force. Need a little more heavy firepower? You can bring a couple of Lascannons with your Tacticals. Want to do that with Primaris? Oops, gotta fork out the points to field an entire unit of dedicated AT troopers.

 

That isn't better, that's just different.

 

8 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

elegance

Stop saying Primaris are elegant. They're not: they're simple. There's a difference.

 

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Actually, there is.

 

If a basket can only hold 1 pound of apples, and it has a pound of apples in it, you would not put another pound of apples in it. that is the logical thread there. It follows that if you already have a biker unit, you don't need 2 bikers units, so why add a biker unit?

 

The argument you could make from here is that the apples in the basket are say, wrotten apples and need to be replaced. And then the weight is upon you to prove that the apples you want to replace are wrotten. And that isn't getting into the problem that the new apples don't taste like the old apples that people were perfectly happy with, and now half the people won't buy the new apples out of the basket...

 

Again, if you're going to use logic as your shield, please actually use it. 

[Blindhamster]

9 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Well here's a thought: If Primaris are the cause of the issue, why shouldn't they be the ones to be removed?

 

That is the logic behind the bloat discussion: it was said that the 'Marine line is bloated, that's why we should remove Firstborn' (paraphrased from Orane Knight's posts) and my response was that Primaris caused the bloat, so logically they should be removed (or not added when they would cause bloat: eg, Outriders which are literally just Bikers with Chainswords and no other options).

 

You came in hot saying that it's because of my dislike of Primaris. I do dislike Primaris, but my argument was founded on actual logic.

Marines were bloated compared to other codexes before Primaris, Primaris definitely exasperated the issue though.

 

There isn't a right answer to what should be done to remove bloat. Ditching primaris won't and shouldn't happen now, GW and many many fans have invested in them, but ditching firstborn also shouldn't happen because many fans invested in them. It probably does make financial sense for GW to not bother renewing molds for firstborn as and when they eventually wear out, but that's a long way off.

 

The best way to fix bloat is combining units that make sense to combine. There's really no other good answer at this point, it won't fix the bloat, but merging the veteran units, merging the captains, merging lieutenants etc would definitely be a logical step forward.

Return to the old school wargear approach where if you choose terminator armour, you refer to the terminator armour section to see what that modifies to stats etc would be better.

Ultimately, marines have a lot of variants and versatility, they always have, when wargear was wargear and you didn't need a distinct sheet per option, it didn't feel as bloated.

Just now, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

Actually, there is.

 

If a basket can only hold 1 pound of apples, and it has a pound of apples in it, you would not put another pound of apples in it. that is the logical thread there. It follows that if you already have a biker unit, you don't need 2 bikers units, so why add a biker unit?

 

The argument you could make from here is that the apples in the basket are say, wrotten apples and need to be replaced. And then the weight is upon you to prove that the apples you want to replace are wrotten. And that isn't getting into the problem that the new apples don't taste like the old apples that people were perfectly happy with, and now half the people won't buy the new apples out of the basket...

 

Again, if you're going to use logic as your shield, please actually use it. 

Well, by that logic, I'd look at the apples and decide which ones I liked, I wouldn't blindly keep the ones I already put in if the new ones looked juicier to me.

 

Also, not everyone was perfectly happy with the old marines, including Jed Godwyn himself.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Just now, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

Actually, there is.

 

If a basket can only hold 1 pound of apples, and it has a pound of apples in it, you would not put another pound of apples in it. that is the logical thread there. It follows that if you already have a biker unit, you don't need 2 bikers units, so why add a biker unit?

 

If your argument is "they shouldn't have done Primaris" then so what? They did. We are past that point. Has no bearing on what is to be done now.

[Kallas]

3 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Here's an opposing one, why should they be? Can you give me anything besides favoritism? 

[...]

If a basket can't fit a pound of old apples and a pound of new apples, there's no logical chain that compels the removal of the new apples over the old.

You're making literally the point I am: it shouldn't be either. One should not have been introduced, because it created bloat.

 

There is no reason for either one in particular to be removed. I am saying it should be Primaris because the Primaris players always say it should be Firstborn - but it shouldn't be either. Neither one should overlap as much as they do, but because they do there is bloat, and that has led to people wanting to remove Firstborn to make room for Primaris; but why should Firstborn be removed? Just because Primaris are new? Which is a weak argument.

 

This isn't about apples: old apples go off. These lines aren't the same as produce with a hard limit on their viability. There is no reason why someone could not be using their 1st Edition Space Marine models in 9th Edition, but an apple from 30 years ago would be basically just dust. It's not the same thing.

 

4 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

You feel offended they came into being, therefor they need to be punished, and you try and pass off this as logic

You keep trying to put words in my mouth. This isn't about "punishing" Primaris - I don't make any actual decisions, obviously. This is about trying to make Primaris/anti-Firstborn folks see how their views are actively harmful to other players' forces.

[Orange Knight]

7 minutes ago, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

You have swapped the idea of people removing weapon loadouts from the table for people removing entire models from the table, then supplemented it with your opinion that the new models look better.

 

'I haven't seen a Melta Devistator since Plasma Devistators got so good.'

Will Become

'I haven't seen an Eradicator since Hellblasters got so good.'

 

As long as you realize that this is the extent of what you're suggesting, and the only functional change it has is alienating other players who don't have your asthetic preferences, I have nothing else to add.

 

I'm saying that the Primaris units will never punish players the same way that older kits have over the years. I'm not saying that one unit isn't better than another. We can already see this is the case in between 8th and 9th.

 

We all know that the Primaris have been very successful - GW's sales indicate they are doing well and they keep churning kits out. The people that refuse to collect Primaris are probably buying a lot less Astartes in general as there have been no new 40k "Firstborn" kits in around 6 years or so. Should GW concern themselves with the voices of those that don't even contribute to the business, or should they focus on making the more active spenders happy? It's worth considering these points.

 

@Kallas 

 

elegant: 2nd meaning - "pleasingly ingenious and simple"

 

The old range isn't deep and complex. It's just a mess. I'll take a streamlined unit that isn't being made redundant after every rules update over one that has more options, most of which are useless. 

 

Anyway, there is clearly no agreement to be had here, beyond the fact we all think GW can't make everyone happy. I don't want to see a bloated codex with 100 units, many of which are redundant or overlap with others, that is updates piecemeal over the length of an edition. They have decided to replace the old line (and have generally done so in the lore, if not on the tabletop) so they should just finish the job at this point. 5 years of limbo is creating toxicity from all sides.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

My point was explained in the half of the post you did not add in your quote. These windmills be not giants.

 

Blindhamster is right though, and seems to have similar ideas to me on how to combine data sheets, if a little less radical. In an ideal world you would keep the best of all possible apples, but that still means you have a pound too many.

[Orange Knight]

In fairness the entire Firstborn range, with the exceptions of Centurions and Terminators, is the same guys and weapons scattered around units in different combinations.

 

They could combine the entire Firstborn infantry range into 3 datasheets.

 

Marine with power armour and XYZ weapon/wargear

Terminator

Centurion

Edited February 22, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Special Officer Doofy]

Saying this as someone who never has and never will play loyalist marines (has nothing to do with firstborn or Primaris) I don't really have a bias. But speaking purely about GW wanting money and how the current trends are, I don't see them combining Primaris and firstborn datasheets together. The current trend is limiting wargear to the box. They are not going to giving Intercessors the tactical marines special or heavy weapon choice, or tacticals the better bolters.

 

The removal of Primaris (if true) is probably just the keyword for rules, not in naming or lore. Primaris marines are larger than chaos marines, firstborn are not. And Primaris was made for two reasons, naming copyrights and to get marine players to rebuy their army. Love it or hate it, GW did it. I don't think they will back track on that for better or worse.

 

If something gets axed, it's usually the older kits. Regardless of what creates bloat, or even people's definition of bloat, every faction over time gains kits/units and loses some. Typically older kits are axed first (replaced or not). GW will probably start slow. Maybe just the resin/fine cast stuff at first. But every kit will retire someday. The firstborn kits will retire before the Primaris ones purely based on the Primaris range being alot newer and "better" as in scale and technology in manufacturing the miniature, looks are subjective I understand. I personally like my marines fat, bloated, covered in poxes with some tenticles, spikes and occasional random belly plate mouth. 

 

Nobody knows. Maybe as firstborn stuff retires (which could be in the realm of 10 years for newer stuff), they just port over more and more newer 30k stuff. It will be plastic, newer, first born and have different roles than Primaris or even current 40k marines. There is low hanging fruit, GW just has to pick it.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Special Officer Doofy

[Kallas]

3 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The old range isn't deep and complex.

Never said it was. It does give more flexibility than the Primaris line, and it's far from hard to understand, even for newer players who you seem to think have the mental capacity of a 4 year old.

 

4 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The people that refuse to collect Primaris are probably buying a lot less Astartes in general as there have been no new 40k "Firstborn" kits in around 6 years or so. Should GW concern themselves with the voices of those that don't even contribute to the business, or should they focus on making the more active spenders happy? It's worth considering these points.

So I have been collecting my current Marines since the beginning of 8th Edition. I took a break after 5th due to a loss of my models during a move, and 6th and 7th did not pull me back in with the increasing rules bloat.

 

Is my money still worth as much as yours, or do I have to get on a high horse as well 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

What a train wreck this has turned into now.

[Kallas]

5 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

What a train wreck this has turned into now.

Yeah, almost like wanting to get rid of peoples' armies is a sore subject. Who would have thought?! 

 

People seem confused why I'm so vociferous in my defence of maintaining my army's eligibility to be used; yet when I suggest the same thing could happen to them, they freak out 

[DesuVult]

I really don't see how primaris are streamlined or elegant.  They seem to be an inconsistent mess, it is why there are such varied opinions on different parts.  Eight new kinds of bolters for troops, jump heavy marines, jump heavy weapon marines, knightly sword and shield marines, four wheelers.

 

They are all over the place in design, role, and aesthetic.  The squads aren't even like classic legion squads.  Some are but it is inconsistent.  Some squads have everyone doing one role, some have everyone but the sergeant in one role.

 

Most people who liked marines before primaris seemed to like the whole range except maybe some older kits and maybe centurions.  With primaris it is wildly inconsistent if people like a certain kit and why.  Some people don't like intercessors and say they look tacticool, some people don't like the role of reivers, some people don't like how the repulsor lacks a clear mission.  Some waves seem to clash with other waves.  BGV and phobos could be from entirely different armies.

Edited February 22, 2023 by DesuVult

[Orange Knight]

Just now, Kallas said:

Yeah, almost like wanting to get rid of peoples' armies is a sore subject. Who would have thought?! 

 

People seem confused why I'm so vociferous in my defence of maintaining my army's eligibility to be used; yet when I suggest the same thing could happen to them, they freak out 

 

Do you assume that the Primaris were my 1st Astartes army? I merely accepted the updated faction and the new units, instead of refusing to engage for 5 years.

 

It took me a long time to even put a Primaris army on the table, probably around 2 years or so. It was a very smooth transition in terms of updating the faction as the older units were still supported. It was also the cheapest 40k factions I've ever collected, aside from Custodes.

[Orange Knight]

@DesuVult

 

I'd say the only questionable kits are the suppressors, the Invader ATV, and the Inceptors (and the guns on the Desolation squad).

 

Most other look pretty great. The newer Gravis kits in particular are excellent. People focus too much on the 4 or so questionable kits.

 

Phobos kits are good, but they are very much a taste based choice for hobbyists. Some love their look, other prefer the more chunky armour. Generally nothing wrong with them.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Kallas]

7 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Do you assume that the Primaris were my 1st Astartes army?

Nope.

 

7 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I merely accepted the updated faction and the new units, instead of refusing to engage for 5 years

Did you assume that I don't own any Primaris? 

Here's the thing: I saw the way the wind was blowing 5 years ago. I didn't buy in immediately, and I didn't buy everything even when I did. I have no illusions that Primaris will push Firstborn out of the picture, but I am still not happy that it will happen.

 

The problem is that it goes like this:
P: "We should get rid of your army"
FB: "Uh, no thanks. How about we get rid of yours instead?"
P: "How DARE you?!"

 

Just because you are ok with getting rid of Firstborn doesn't make it ok to those who don't want their stuff gone.

 

Edit: and let's not forget: 5 years ago when those of us who saw the writing on the wall called it out, we were shouted down for being pessimistic, yet here we are with those same shouters having a go at us for not embracing the change we didn't want 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Kallas

[Arikel]

42 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

So they can just scrap the old units and models at that point?

 

Marines are just Marine after all.

For the models, yes.  I say this as primarily a firstborn player. The only primaris I have come from the imperium magazine sub I split with a friend, of which a grand total of 3 are painted. I essentially rage quit when Primaris were first introduced and had already been stepping back from the hobby for a few years already, but have come back to the scene now. This is still pretty slow compared to most people, but I am buying and painting models again, and have gotten a couple games in

 

It would be preferable to me if they continued to release models with firstborn aesthetics, perhaps rescaled to be a little taller, and had the options available so that all loadouts listed in the data sheets are easy to acquire and model on your dudes. What I do not see the need for is the difference in rules between primaris and firstborn. 40K doesn't have fine enough detail in stats to really model the difference between primaris and firstborn power levels(d6 rolling and stats from 1-10), as it's not big enough to make a difference that it would in a game with greater stat differential (using d10's or bigger, stats levels that go to 20 for example, would allow for this difference to be shown better). 

 

By dropping the keyword, merging data sheets, and combining certain types of units we can cut back on both data sheet and rules bloat.

[Orange Knight]

@Kallas

 

I wasn't on this forum when the Primaris 1st appeared, although I was on Dakka at the time. Boy did things get heated (about everything in general), and they never really went back to normal. I was glad to be rid of that forum lol