Do you think firstborn marines will be discontinued?

[DesuVult]

What is the shortest amount of time GW has had a model around before getting rid of it?  Barring models with such poor reception they had to make a new sculpt like the old old possessed. 

[Tacitus]

5 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

From the classic range there are a lot of units that are niche or simply not very worthwhile.

 

Assault Marines (Vanguard are the same unit but better), the Whirlwind (A desolator Sgt has the same weapon), Hunter and Stalker, the tiny landspeeders, Scouts (ugly!), Techmarines and Servitors, the old command squad, the Squat Dreads etc, the Relic Terminators (these belong in the HH). All these models can be sent to legends.

 

Currently there are units that can be equipped with specific wargear that are very effective. Vanguard Vets and Devastators are two such units. I have a feeling that in the next codex update they'll follow the same pattern established with other recent books: They'll only be able to take the wargear that's in the box. This will impact those units as they won't be able to focus on certain weapons across the full squad, so no more Dev Squads with 4 Multi Meltas, as an example.

 

The Primaris range also needs consolidation. The HQ units and the Storm Speeders and Gladiators could definitely be merged into fewer datasheets, for example.

 

Some "Firstborn" models that I would love to see in the codex, provided it is consolidated and more manageable would be things like the Spartan and Kratos as Lords of War, as well as the full plastic Contemptor with all the various options.

 

 

I'd disagree.  I think Assault Marines are in a VERY interesting place right now.  The Jump packs, Eviscerators, and Plasma Pistols are all free.  10 of them, 2 Evis, 2 PP/CS, and a Sgt with Thunder Hammer, PP, and Combat Shield for their current price is VERY intriguing as a menacing/flanking unit.  I generally play mostly Primaris, and as we don't have a Jump Punch unit for them yet, they're still pretty tempting.  I'm waiting for the meta to catch up to them. 

The Hunter/Stalker are the AA choice.

 

Techmarines are the Dreadnaught list Medics.

 

The old Command Squad is the only source of BODYGUARD for most chapters.

 

Most of us have been playing long enough we've bought enough Devastator Boxes to make 6 Devastator Squads, each spamming one of the 6 choices. 

 

I'm not exactly sure why the Relic Terminators belong in HH but the Contemptor Dread doesn't.  Also, it is in the current Codex, while the Kratos is just newer than the current Codex.   

 

I certainly hope the criteria for the next few Codex aren't  I like this one, but not that one so scrap that one. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

10 minutes ago, DesuVult said:

What is the shortest amount of time GW has had a model around before getting rid of it?  Barring models with such poor reception they had to make a new sculpt like the old old possessed. 

Greater possessed were in Shadowspear and were gone in the 9E CSM codex

[Tacitus]

4 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I think we can all agree that the codex currently has more datasheets than it needs and some options could easily be condensed. Exactly how far that goes and which options get condensed is less clear.

Than it needs?  Sure.  Than it should have?  Probably no. The price of a Codex isn't going to go down if it has 50 datasheets instead of 52.  They'll pack more fluff we've already read and still charge us for a 200 page book.  And if they do do this, it's not going to be piecemeal.  If they discontinue First Born (which I think they were going to do, now I'm not sure) they'll do it all at once.  Make a hand wave, Abra Kadabra, All Marine Chapters have crossed the Rubicon - please repaint your minis for HH. 

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

There have been some Primaris units I really liked. The fluff has been universally trash, but the new Crusaders are good (wish I could take them in units of 5), Most of the BT characters, BGV, etc.

 

Problem is, I really don't like the Primaris tanks. I don't like that they're hover tanks, and I don't like the lack of history. I still play with LR Crusaders on the table as often as I can, and there's just nothing I can do with one of those in a Primaris force. That's why I'm a big supporter of nixing the keyword. If the keyword goes away I'll probably convert all my foot troupes to Primaris just to use the newer sculpts and upgrade kits with my existing Land Raiders and Drop Pods. I rarely use Rhinos anymore anyway, it's just those two vehicles that are crutial to how I like to build my army.

 

Also, Ironclad Dreads. Primaris still don't have a dread with a chainfist or sword, so I don't run any. I've thought about converting one, but won't pull the trigger on that until the tank issue gets resolved.

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Speaking solely for myself, you can trace back when I started to bring up the word "objective". It was wholly in response to someone thinking the opinion they sprouted was holy objective fact. "Primaris are X. It's categorical. The argument cannot be defended against". It's the only beef I had with anything said in this conversation since I left it alone X hours ago

 

Sadly there are a number of people who have gone with the "I only like and play X, Y, and Z - so everything else can get scrapped even though it may be much more important to another subfaction or playstyle I don't enjoy". 

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Let's take a trip through the past.

 

5th Edition - Devastators with Las Cannons and Plasma Cannons are the best. Everyone is building their models this way.

In 7th and 8th it's all about Grav Cannons, time to buy the same kit again or rip out the old guns.

9th comes along and it's all about Meltas. Again, time to change up your existing models.

 

In 10th, they'll probably limit the number of the same guns you can take so the unit will have to be adapted again. 

 

8th was Plasma.  When the Hellblasters were released.

9th was Melta.  When the Eradicators were released.

10th will be... limiting options when the Desolators were released?  Nah, my money's on the FOTM of 10th being Missiles. 

[Tacitus]

9 minutes ago, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

There have been some Primaris units I really liked. The fluff has been universally trash, but the new Crusaders are good (wish I could take them in units of 5), Most of the BT characters, BGV, etc.

 

Problem is, I really don't like the Primaris tanks. I don't like that they're hover tanks, and I don't like the lack of history. I still play with LR Crusaders on the table as often as I can, and there's just nothing I can do with one of those in a Primaris force. That's why I'm a big supporter of nixing the keyword. If the keyword goes away I'll probably convert all my foot troupes to Primaris just to use the newer sculpts and upgrade kits with my existing Land Raiders and Drop Pods. I rarely use Rhinos anymore anyway, it's just those two vehicles that are crutial to how I like to build my army.

 

Also, Ironclad Dreads. Primaris still don't have a dread with a chainfist or sword, so I don't run any. I've thought about converting one, but won't pull the trigger on that until the tank issue gets resolved.

I liked it better when they were hover tanks.  Now they're floating ground tanks still susceptible to terrain and only having the one place they can be deployed next to the one place they can get out of your deployment zone. 

 

I'd imagine almost nobody uses Rhinos anymore.  Hopefully this next edition will find a way to balance 10 man squads/upgrades/1 Sergeant, vs the Risk of a BLAST weapon.  Right now the only calculus involved is "I can have more guys who die faster, with fewer sergeants".   But I wouldn't remove the unit/datasheet either, unless all Firstborn go. 

 

They're probably not going to get a Chainfist Dread, but the new Brutalis is close. 

[Orange Knight]

13 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

8th was Plasma.  When the Hellblasters were released.

9th was Melta.  When the Eradicators were released.

10th will be... limiting options when the Desolators were released?  Nah, my money's on the FOTM of 10th being Missiles. 

 

I don't think you understood the point I was making. I'm not saying all the units will be perfectly balanced at all times.

[Tacitus]

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I don't think you understood the point I was making. I'm not saying all the units will be perfectly balanced at all times.

I understood, I just disagreed.  I seriously doubt they'll require a rainbow Devastator Squad.  As mentioned a lot of us already have all 24 options.  And the Flavor of the Month trend has more closely matched the new hot Primaris squad than old Devastator Kit. 

 

To Sum up:

 

I believe they were going to get rid of Firstborn - probably because most of us weren't buying more SM kits as we already had all we needed.

I'm not sure anymore, but if they do stick around I forsee them getting more HH crossover - potentially going to the HH section of the website, with 40K rules.

 

Just because (a generic) you don't play with Unit A, and it doesn't synergize with your chapter doesn't mean another Subfaction doesn't either.  Iron Hands love Techmarines.  Ravenwing loves the old bikes.  Deathwing loves all the Terminators ever.   Salamarnders love Flamer Aggressors.  White Scars love Rhinos and Razorbacks.  Blood Angels and Raven Guard love Assault Marines.  Heck, my UM army loves Assault Marines.  We all read and buy out of the same book.  Not everything is meant for you. 

[Blindhamster]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

I understood, I just disagreed.  I seriously doubt they'll require a rainbow Devastator Squad.  As mentioned a lot of us already have all 24 options.  And the Flavor of the Month trend has more closely matched the new hot Primaris squad than old Devastator Kit.

Generally agree with most of your post, but wanted to note, this isn't actually the case. Most factions sets across 40k and AoS work with options based on whats in the kit. They've not done it with marines because marine players are used to getting all the options all the time, whilst other factions rarely get said benefit, rather than it having anything to do with Primaris, Primaris weren't the first place the approach appeared, marine (and to a lesser extent Chaos) players simply didn't understand how good they've been getting it for a while.. I think you're right that it won't happen to devastators, they'll keep devastators working as they are until they either get a new kit, or are phased out. That said, the new HH heavy weapon sets might allow them to simply not do that because of how that game works. We'll see I suppose.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Havocs are one of the few CSM kits that didn't get hit with restrictions locked to one box in the 9E CSM codex, so I would figure devastators will be unaffected.

[Captain Idaho]

Here's a thought or 2 that isn't a reply to anyone specifically...

 

• Release Age of Darkness models that cover Firstborn on 40K particularly when that game reaches The Scouring. Then you can:

 

i) Separate Firstborn and Primaris in 40K in the rules, so there's an entire Codex for Firstborn so players can do historical 40K (can't reenact any of the main and famous stories from 40K such as Battle of Maccragge or 2nd War for Armageddon etc using Primaris) and still play the game.

 

Primaris models are then the 40K models that keep getting support.

 

/Or/

 

ii) Release Age of Darkness rules for other races and factions that covers people who want to play against the Legions/Scouring Chapters.

 

***

 

The latter is pretty much a rival to 40K but then as a more complicated and detailed ruleset that Age of Darkness plays, it becomes the senior game to 40K. (For the Veterans so to speak)

Edited February 22, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Nephaston]

I can absolutely see GW triple dipping on their Science Fantasy franchise like that;

 

Horus Heresy with Age of Darkness featuring the old legions.

 

Era Indomitus with mainline 40k and their primaris line.

 

And let's say a third whole game covering the "Age of the Imperium" everything slightly post Scouring, over Badab, till the Fall of Cadia. Featuring the Chapters as they used to be.

 

Would it be wise to have three lines of games like that just so GW can eat their cake and have it too? Debatable.

But it would absolutely be believable. Maybe even preferable.

[Brother Tyler]

GW wouldn't even need to create a third game line to support Firstborn in the Age of the Imperium. It could be as simple as presenting historical campaigns set throughout the history of the Imperium between the Horus Heresy/Scouring and the Era Indomitus. These campaigns would use the regular Warhammer 40,000 rules and codices, but with limitations (e.g., certain units cannot be used). This would allow them to create a few missions for the campaign, perhaps give us some special units or characters to represent the notable participants of that campaign, and then call it a day (though they could easily do more).

 

As for the main question, sure, GW will eventually stop making Firstborn. When that happens is the important question, and the question to which none of us knows the answer. It could be that GW might decide to stop supporting Firstborn in the next edition. Or maybe they'll stop supporting Firstborn when they stop making the Warhammer 40,000 game. Or maybe it will be some time in between. Regardless, if they ever decide to stop supporting Firstborn, I'll just use my Firstborn as vertically challenged Space Marines, the same as their taller (and better looking ) battle-brothers in the newer looking armour, only shorter.

[Marshal Reinhard]

7 minutes ago, Brother Tyler said:

As for the main question, sure, GW will eventually stop making Firstborn.

Only if they stop making HH first. Though you could then argue, they'll eventually stop making them for 40k.

[phandaal]

44 minutes ago, Brother Tyler said:

As for the main question, sure, GW will eventually stop making Firstborn. When that happens is the important question, and the question to which none of us knows the answer. It could be that GW might decide to stop supporting Firstborn in the next edition. Or maybe they'll stop supporting Firstborn when they stop making the Warhammer 40,000 game. Or maybe it will be some time in between.

 

Eventually the older models will go away just like old beakies went away, or 2nd/3rd edition models went away. And it is almost guaranteed that some low-selling units will go away to make room for newer or better-selling kits.

 

The real question is will GW ever stop making new models with the older aesthetic? Personally, I doubt it. They seem to understand the value of digging for nostalgia. Some day that will even include the Primaris line, which should be fun to see.

[DesuVult]

6 hours ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Greater possessed were in Shadowspear and were gone in the 9E CSM codex

Those become the new possessed when old possessed were discontinued.

[Nephaston]

Yeah, having timeframes like that for units would be more sensible than multiple different lines of games. But knowing GW it will take them another decade before they get an idea like that.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So the solution is to go the Flames of War route with Early/Mid/Late War eras, with different units & armies available in each era?

[Nephaston]

Maybe not the solution, but a solution. Not that it's likely to be implemented, not to mention that it would not reduce the glut of datasheets. Instead GW would need to add a rider to every unit detailing which era allows the unit so it would only be sensible for stringent narrative games. So probably not worth the time.

[Captain Idaho]

 

57 minutes ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

So the solution is to go the Flames of War route with Early/Mid/Late War eras, with different units & armies available in each era?

 

Pretty much my position.

 

I believe epic was essentially that right? Marines set in Heresy, obviously Tyranids not?

Edited February 23, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[DesuVult]

I would be a big fan of an "Ages of" ruleset and could open up armies breaking it in places so for example DA get actual weapons of the dark age.  I doubt it would happen though.  Parts of it would fit well into GW's release style.  Small box sets built around specific events.  One new kit part of a critical turning point and some older kits that were also present.  This would be a step back from competitive play as a focus though and be less about a singular large narrative.

[Emperor Ming]

If 10th is wall to wall primaris and no firstborn releases, will this merry-go-round continue

 

Or will people just accept it and move on

[Captain Idaho]

Would we expect an Ork player to move on and accept an entire edition of Primaris releases over his beloved faction? Or would said Ork player be allowed to air his grievances?