Do you think firstborn marines will be discontinued?

[phandaal]

9 hours ago, Tacitus said:

I'd say the idea isn't that they JUST want kids.  The idea is that they don't want to exclude kids - especially by scaring their mothers. 

 

GW does not want to exclude anyone's money. However, deleting their Space Marine range in favor of a new kind of Space Marine has never been necessary to avoid said exclusion.

 

Space Marine "Firstborn" hard-carried GW for decades, as millions of teenagers moved into their 20s, 30s, and beyond, and new generations of teenagers picked up the hobby.

[Bryan Blaire]

44 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Because people like Black Bloe Fly and OrangeKnight are literally advocating removing Firstborn from the Marine Codex? That's the issue I have. They want my models gone, so that they can get new Primaris units that fill the same role.

 

Well that's the thing. The overwhelming majority of folks I've ever met and played with typically follow the core game: that is that they use the latest rules (usually the Matched Play Grand Tournament packs, because they're often better missions and Matched is generally better balanced than Open/Power Level/not consistently updated stuff) and Codexes for their games. Removing units from a Codex, and even putting them in Legends, is tantamount to removing them from the game entirely.

 

And if I were to go to a tournament where Legends is proscribed (ie, quite a lot of tournaments), then suddenly those units are entirely unusable.

The units may be unusable, but that doesn’t mean the models are - again, see my previous point that you quoted.  Your classic models don’t have to stop being used just because units presented in a Codex are only new ones.  You can use those models to make new units - just let everyone know that all your Marines are using the new technologies incorporated into their relic appearance gear.

 

37 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Sure, I'll tell folks that my Thunderfire Cannon is a squad of Desolators 

I don’t disagree that there’s going to be some issues, and possibly some losses - but in that particular instance, don’t use a Thunderfire Cannon to try and represent a whole squad - but it’d be pretty easy to say a squad of five missile launchers is a Desolator squad pretty easily.  You could probably use the Thunderfire as a Firestrike Turret pretty easily though - may need to build something up on a bit of a hill, but it’s not an insurmountable task if you want to keep using the classic appearances for units.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Kallas]

6 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

The units may be unusable, but that doesn’t mean the models are - again, see my previous point that you quoted.  Your classic models don’t have to stop being used just because units presented in a Codex are only new ones.  You can use those models to make new units - just let everyone know that all your Marines are using the new technologies incorporated into their relic appearance gear.

What do my Dreadnoughts get used as? Redemptors? I'm sure people would love playing against tiny Redemptors! Rhinos? Assault Marines? There are some units that could be represented with existing Firstborn models and there are some that can't.

 

Also, why remove them? Bloat is the answer given, yet it's always to make room for new Primaris, who create the bloat by being introduced into a line that already has those units. To use an example I used earlier: if you introduce a unit of Flame Drakes to Craftworld Eldar that are exactly like Fire Dragons, but they have better gear and mostly better stats...is that not just bloat?

 

9 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

it’s not an insurmountable task if you want to keep use the classic appearances for units.

But that's still the issue: why the hell should these units be removed at all? Why can't I have a TFC as a TFC, instead of it being removed because of bloat Primaris create and then having to try and squeeze it into some other role that it shouldn't be. A TFC is an artillery piece; a Firestrike is not. There's no good justification for removing any units, but people keep making that point - it's about some people wanting more of their new stuff. Them having new stuff is ultimately fine; it's the calling for other stuff to be removed that's the problem.

[Bryan Blaire]

14 minutes ago, Kallas said:

What do my Dreadnoughts get used as? Redemptors? I'm sure people would love playing against tiny Redemptors! Rhinos? Assault Marines? There are some units that could be represented with existing Firstborn models and there are some that can't.

 

Also, why remove them? Bloat is the answer given, yet it's always to make room for new Primaris, who create the bloat by being introduced into a line that already has those units. To use an example I used earlier: if you introduce a unit of Flame Drakes to Craftworld Eldar that are exactly like Fire Dragons, but they have better gear and mostly better stats...is that not just bloat?

 

But that's still the issue: why the hell should these units be removed at all? Why can't I have a TFC as a TFC, instead of it being removed because of bloat Primaris create and then having to try and squeeze it into some other role that it shouldn't be. A TFC is an artillery piece; a Firestrike is not. There's no good justification for removing any units, but people keep making that point - it's about some people wanting more of their new stuff. Them having new stuff is ultimately fine; it's the calling for other stuff to be removed that's the problem.

I don’t know what “people” you are playing against are going to have an issue with - you’d have to ask them and work with them, not me.  Personally, I don’t see why we couldn’t come to an agreement to play with your Dreadnoughts as another type of Dreadnought, whether that’s something specifically labeled as Primaris right now, or even using it as an Ironclad.

 

If we are having to stay with the Primaris units - Rhinos could easily be Impulsors (and I think look better as Marine transports, I’d rather convert Impulsors to be tracked anyway) - could even give them little grav plates underneath to have them jump obstacles or something.  Assault Marines without jump packs are easily used as Assault Intercessors.

 

Regarding removal - I don’t believe that GW has to remove anything.  Personally, I don’t see why units can’t be fused and Marines just can’t be Marines (other that people on both sides of some imaginary line complain about “losing their uniqueness”).  I also don’t care about “bloat” or pay any mind to the argument that the “Codex must be smaller” - it doesn’t hold any weight with me.  If things are redundant for competitive gamers, then so be it, they don’t get used in that environment.  Who cares, it doesn’t damage the Codex by having other stuff in there that isn’t ultra-competitively tuned.  More options letting people pick what they want their army to look and play like is one of the best parts of this game to me.

 

Now, GW may have something to say about it all in a future Codex, but I’ll deal with that for me when it happens.  Right now, I’ve got Blood Claws I’m making out of Assault Intercessors, and I’ll use them for whichever I like in my games, and I will make it very clear to my opponents what they are beforehand.  If we can’t come to an accord, then I won’t be playing a game against that person, but that’s between me and them, not anyone else.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Kallas]

10 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

I don’t know what “people” you are playing against are going to have an issue with - you’d have to ask them and work with them, not me.  Personally, I don’t see why we couldn’t come to an agreement to play with your Dreadnoughts as another type of Dreadnought, whether that’s something specifically labeled as Primaris right now, or even using it as an Ironclad.

My point was more that most people prefer to adhere to the core, widely used rules and models - Firstborn models with no solid equivalent (such as the Dreadnought as an example) are not an easy fit. I wasn't necessarily trying to get your specific opinion on what my local group would accept or not 

 

12 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Assault Marines without jump packs are easily used as Assault Intercessors.

...and those with? This is the thing, we're jumping through hoops to justify this, when there shouldn't be a need for it because there's no reason for them to get removed.

 

13 minutes ago, Bryan Blaire said:

Regarding removal - I don’t believe that GW has to remove anything.  Personally, I don’t see why units can’t be fused and Marines just can’t be Marines (other that people on both sides of some imaginary line complain about “losing their uniqueness”).  I also don’t care about “bloat” or pay any mind to the argument that the “Codex must be smaller” - it doesn’t hold any weight with me.  If things are redundant for competitive gamers, then so be it, they don’t get used in that environment.  Who cares, it doesn’t damage the Codex by having other stuff in there that isn’t ultra-competitively tuned.  More options letting people pick what they want their army to look and play like is one of the best parts of this game to me.

I mean, yeah. That's been half of my point the whole time. Go look at Orange Knight's posts for examples of "we need to remove bloat." If we accept the premise that there's bloat, then I posit that it's the fault of Primaris, and that the simplest solution to preventing further bloat is to not make new, redundant Primaris units; certainly not to remove existing units - but then people get really angry about that without any shred of self awareness 

 

8 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

That said some of the more extreme vitriol laced posts I have seen that are anti Primaris doesn’t help.

Most of that is in response to posts calling for the removal of Firstborn 

 

14 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I don’t advocate anything regarding firstborn and use them in my current army.

When you're advocating for units that are direct replacements of current Firstborn units (ie, Primaris Terminators), that reads very much like you're supporting replacing Firstborn. With the Echoes announcement, that particular route seems to be less likely (as it looks like traditional Indomitus Terminators), but the position seems to be that bringing new Primaris units in that take over the Firstborn role entirely (ie, a Primaris Terminator unit that is functionally identical to Firstborn Terminators, which you were pretty adamant about them being) is tantamount to having a replacement (and despite your previous emphasis that it wouldn't immediately remove FB Terminators, we can see that this is exactly what GW does when they have a direct Primaris replacement, eg, Calgar, Shrike, Azrael and every other direct replacement: the Firstborn units are gone, and in some cases the models aren't even really useable as proxies as the new models become enormous (eg, Shrike) comparatively).

[WrathOfTheLion]

The issue with part of that opinion with me, is that if there's primaris terminators with equivalent loadouts and all, it's just a straight kit update. You use your existing collection with that, just like GW themselves have ruled in tournaments that an old Calgar model in Terminator armor could be used to represent the current Calgar datasheet.

 

The bigger issue for your collection is if there isn't direct replacements and they decide to make that call.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

When did gw rule that ? If you can afford to attend a tournament you can afford a model. Seems kind of pathetic.

Edited March 12, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[WrathOfTheLion]

1 hour ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

When did gw rule that ? If you can afford to attend a tournament you can afford a model. Seems kind of pathetic.

I think they allowed someone to do it a while ago, so long as it was still a GW model and on the correct base size. I remembered reading about it a while ago, but don't remember where. This would be the same policy as for in-store gaming at their stores - they'll allow you to use anything that is a GW/FW model, even if an older sculpt (some may restrict FW, but that isn't corporate policy).

 

Essentially that the situation was analogous to like if you used the current finecast Farsight model in lieu of the new one, or use the old metal Cypher model instead of the newer plastic one.

 

My general point here though is that if there's direct replacements, then the situation is analogous to a model update, as anyone reasonable would agree on. I cannot foresee anyone demanding their opponent use Legends rules for a Tigurius model for instance instead of just the current datasheet, provided he's on the right base size, that would be in real bad form as a player if in a friendly game. I could see a TA ruling either way on that, depending on who they are, but a tournament is a different beast and that's at their individual discretion.

Edited March 13, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I did some research…

 

it’s not universal. You’ll have to ask the TO. If the opponent has an issue it prolly won’t fly - totally kills the immersion. So like I said if you can afford to attend a tournament you can afford a new mini.

[WrathOfTheLion]

That's what I meant, it's at the discretion of the TO. I think as long as it's obviously that character and on the right base, that would be a bit petty for an opponent to have an issue, but that's between players there, of which I'm not one.

 

Were someone to want to do this, they should obviously clear it beforehand, in which case any objection would get denied. If they don't do that, then whatever TO can rule as they do on the field and they get what they get.

Edited March 13, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s pretty cheap  not to buy a new model.

[WrathOfTheLion]

That's between them and the TO. I'm just speaking of the procedures they should follow, should they want to do that. I don't play tournaments, so I don't really care.

 

Like anything in life, at the end of the day, those that file the paperwork and get approvals will normally have things in their favor. So if that's something someone wants to do, then they should go through the hoops and any on-the-floor disagreement will probably rule with them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The main point is it’s not universally accepted, not by any means. I can tell you don’t play comp - it has come a long ways to help  establish guidelines to ensure games are both fair and enjoyable.

 

Here are the most current rules regarding proxies…

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Bryan Blaire]

44 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

The main point is it’s not universally accepted not by any means. I can tell you don’t play comp - it has come a long ways to help  establish guidelines to ensure games are both fair and enjoyable.

And yet you will find no rules about it in the current GW rulebooks, not even for matched play… Hmmm.

 

In other words - rules have to be established for it beyond GW’s rules for 40K.  As tychobi said in his comments on competitive Warhammer vs. having to houserule things: “whatever rules tweaks you want but then you are not really playing 40k”.  If it’s not in the main rule book or another official GW publication for the game, then it’s house rules.  Even GW’s rules for their in-house tournaments and play are still rules for in their house, not rules for the game.

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[WrathOfTheLion]

@BLACK BLŒ FLY That image matches exactly what I said - you should contact them and go through the approval process.

 

1 hour ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

Were someone to want to do this, they should obviously clear it beforehand, in which case any objection would get denied. If they don't do that, then whatever TO can rule as they do on the field and they get what they get.

 

I didn't know the exact rule, but bureaucracy is bureaucracy, it's the same thing as getting stuff approved in the tech industry. You can a lot of times get what you want, but there's always paperwork to file...

Edited March 13, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It says converted or scratch built.

[Blindhamster]

Older models are generally considered fine, in the same way newer models converted to represent old units is legal, the same is and always has been acceptable. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

It's like putting a firstborn Emperor's Champion on a 40mm base. (Or 60mm even!) It's absolutely fine.

[Marshal Reinhard]

38 minutes ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

It's like putting a firstborn Emperor's Champion on a 40mm base. (Or 60mm even!) It's absolutely fine.

*cough* 50 *cough*

[Captain Idaho]

12 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

When did gw rule that ? If you can afford to attend a tournament you can afford a model. Seems kind of pathetic.

 

=][= If you can kindly refrain from verbally attacking people in this hypothetical. It's disenguous as people may have a favourite model etc, but also it's provocative. =][=

[Captain Idaho]

Many tournaments mirror GW rulings and conventions, obviously requiring contact with the TO first.

 

It was me who contacted GW a while back and got this feedback:

 

 

Then reply:

 

 

Obviously things can change, but there's no reason to believe it would be any different to this.

 

Now, that's not to say you can universally use all models as proxies or what have you. Size and disparity is immense. I think the "use them as proxies" misses many points for an entire line of models. In that case, why have any models at all? Some won't fit, others will be wildly inaccurate and really, people want to play a supported faction/model set.

 

For a model or 2? Yeah sure. But an entire army? That just isn't practical.

[phandaal]

With this weekend's Terminator reveal, it is safe to say we are seeing the first step of GW blurring the line between "Firstborn" and other Space Marine aesthetics.

 

Once the keyword is removed, which this latest reveal points towards happening sooner rather than later, it will be a question of which units will stay and which will go.

 

As opposed to whether or not the entire set of classic units will be removed from the game.

Edited March 13, 2023 by phandaal

[Orange Knight]

GW will never stop you from using old models. Even if the rules aren't supported many kits can exist as "counts as"

 

As long as the model is official GW, it will generally be good to go in their eyes.

 

It's more likely to be an issue with your opponent. 40k in particular is carried by the models and lore to a greater degree than most other games.

Take battletech - a good game with ugly models that don't stir the imagination (and yes, I'm sure someone out there likes them a lot).

 

So eventually it will come down to the aesthetics of the game and what people are willing to put up with.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

1 hour ago, phandaal said:

With this weekend's Terminator reveal, it is safe to say we are seeing the first step of GW blurring the line between "Firstborn" and other Space Marine aesthetics.

 

Once the keyword is removed, which this latest reveal points towards happening sooner rather than later, it will be a question of which units will stay and which will go.

 

As opposed to whether or not the entire set of classic units will be removed from the game.

Not sure how you inferred from this that any keywords are going to be removed. The video certainly didn’t mention it.

[Tacitus]

19 hours ago, Kallas said:

Bloat is the answer given, yet it's always to make room for new Primaris, who create the bloat by being introduced into a line that already has those units.

 Never have I a seen a more textbook example of "Bloat means the stuff I don't like".