Do you think firstborn marines will be discontinued?

[Captain Idaho]

And moving back on topic, let's talk about Firstborn here. The big test to see if they get replaced is in what happens with the 10th edition launch of Codex Space Marines. How many units they quietly move to Legends. If Firstborn were here to stay, there'd be none that get removed.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[DesuVult]

I could see something like company veterans being removed.  It's been a mess of a datasheet.

[Captain Idaho]

I can see Company Veterans going. But I actually think GW will go further. They'll remove loads of support characters and I even reckon things like Bike Captains.

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, DesuVult said:

I could see something like company veterans being removed.  It's been a mess of a datasheet.

That's the only "bodyguard" unit most chapters have.  Only Ultras have a Primaris version.  With that said, the Company Vets with Power Sword and Stormshield are ridiculously overpriced compared to the Victrix Guard with Power Sword and Ultima Stormshield who are themselves probably overcosted compared to BGV - So they can't get rid of the Company Vets unless they A) get rid of Sniping or B) Add more universal/generic bodyguards.   The units to watch out for are the ones that are "extra" - if the Centurions for example go Legends, that's a bad sign for First Born. 

[Kallas]

3 hours ago, DesuVult said:

I could see something like company veterans being removed.  It's been a mess of a datasheet.

They are still a current boxset, which is allegedly the standard for moving units to Legends (ie, not having current models).

It's the Company Command box, which makes them, the Apothecary, Ancient and Champion, so if the remove them, then they're pretty much removing all of them, which is quite a chunk of units to remove in one fell swoop.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Kallas

[WrathOfTheLion]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

I can see Company Veterans going. But I actually think GW will go further. They'll remove loads of support characters and I even reckon things like Bike Captains.

They can't remove the bike captain unless a Primaris datasheet exists as a successor, as then you couldn't play Dark Angels successors. I guess if DA get a range release, they could get a specific kit to handle that role if no general one exists.

 

That's the main reason it got added back in with the 9E book was so they could successfully merge Codex: Dark Angels into Codex: Space Marines. I don't think they can remove it until the situation changes.

Edited February 19, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

With Desolators due out I can see Devastators going to Legend status.

[WrathOfTheLion]

3 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

With Desolators due out I can see Devastators going to Legend status.

I doubt it, as the kit is still available and selling and Desolators only fill part of the role at best.

 

What goes to legends and what stays is for the most part predictable based on model availability. So anything Finecast would be real high up on the list of things I'd expect. Kits in plastic, especially fairly new kits (Devastator is from like 2012? 2014), I'd expect to be safe.

Edited February 19, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion
fixed incorrect year

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The store in my area that does the most business told that tactical Marines are only purchased for Horus Heresy. Not sure yet what will happen with Relic Terminators… really love the squad even though currently I’m not using them.

Edited February 19, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Captain Idaho]

Stores don't even have non-Primaris on display so any Firstborn sales are likely online only. It's a case of are they not selling because they aren't promoted or are they not promoted because they're not selling.

 

I'm guessing it was a reduced visibility resulted in less sales, which GW doubled down on.

 

As for Devastators... no way are they going anywhere. Desolators are awful in both models and rules (rumoured evidence)so the amount of sales for them will be muted. Besides, Melta and Grav is generally better than missile launchers....

Edited February 19, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think it’s much too early to say much about Desolators - I will say the rules I’ve seen look good to me, basically like Dark Reapers. Are these going to be the actual rules… no idea really.

[Captain Idaho]

1 hour ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I think it’s much too early to say much about Desolators - I will say the rules I’ve seen look good to me, basically like Dark Reapers. Are these going to be the actual rules… no idea really.

 

You literally said they're going to replace Devastator squads who will go to Legends - is it too early or not? 

Edited February 19, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

6 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

And moving back on topic, let's talk about Firstborn here. The big test to see if they get replaced is in what happens with the 10th edition launch of Codex Space Marines. How many units they quietly move to Legends. If Firstborn were here to stay, there'd be none that get removed.

 

I actually think the first big test for firstborn was the last dataslate. The free upgrades affected a lot of their units, and I don't think they would've bothered to fix a lot of those units if they didn't have plans for them. I do expect some resin kits like thunderfire cannons to disappear, but I expect that across a several ranges.

 

2 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

With Desolators due out I can see Devastators going to Legend status.

 

I think Devastators will be one of the last firstborn units to go to legends. The plastic kit is relatively new, and like a lot of firstborn kits it requires a couple of boxes to get the competitive loadouts. 

 

The only reason I can think of why Desolators would cause Devastators to go to legends is because the models are that ugly. I plan on buying the dread, and maybe the LT when they're up for individual sale, but I will never own Desolators lol. Thankfully the primaris range is developed enough now that I don't feel like I have to.

 

[Captain Idaho]

Customers should never feel like they need to purchase things they don't want or like just to make a company happy. 

[redmapa]

There will be a lot of fat to trim in the firstborn range that might never get an update but I do think there's a core of units that are just too iconic to be removed and will get a miniature in the future and those are Terminators, Scouts, Tactical, Devastator and Assault squads and considering that there still isn't a shoots veteran unit I think Tacs/Devs can fill that hole quite nicely and the rest can fill other missing niches in the current primaris list. They aren't going anywhere, they will just get an update to certain units and it will be as if it was a new design for an old unit.

 

 I do hope they remove the primaris keyword from the codex, it should've never been in the rules and was only there as a business decision.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

21 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Customers should never feel like they need to purchase things they don't want or like just to make a company happy. 

 

The primaris range was really limited at the start, and my tastes model wise did cost me games. I'm more interested in competitive content so that I don't get salty when I run into an optimized list, but a lot of people are interested in the content to see what they should buy next. There would've been a point where I think I would've had to make some comprises for the game to be any fun. I lucked out with Eradicators looking cool and filling that niche, but maybe I would've bought Desolators.

 

You don't ever have to worry about me making GW happy, I've switched to battletech being my primary game. Never would've predicted that with how much GW I've bought over the years and with them still having quality lead, but GW pulled it off.

 

10 minutes ago, redmapa said:

There will be a lot of fat to trim in the firstborn range that might never get an update but I do think there's a core of units that are just too iconic to be removed and will get a miniature in the future and those are Terminators, Scouts, Tactical, Devastator and Assault squads and considering that there still isn't a shoots veteran unit I think Tacs/Devs can fill that hole quite nicely and the rest can fill other missing niches in the current primaris list. They aren't going anywhere, they will just get an update to certain units and it will be as if it was a new design for an old unit.

 

 I do hope they remove the primaris keyword from the codex, it should've never been in the rules and was only there as a business decision.

 

Yeah I kinda see that happening as well. I do think the kits will probably be branded as HH/40k at some point but with the success that HH is having I can't imagine them being in any hurry. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

4 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

You literally said they're going to replace Devastator squads who will go to Legends - is it too early or not? 

I said I could see it happening… doesn’t necessarily mean it will though. Two dev squads in a drop pod is quite nasty - especially for certain factions like Iron Hands. On the flip side the new unit can shoot krak or frag plus indirect which is quite versatile.

[Kallas]

5 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Stores don't even have non-Primaris on display so any Firstborn sales are likely online only. It's a case of are they not selling because they aren't promoted or are they not promoted because they're not selling.

Yeah, this is one of the main reasons why I feel that Firstborn will be canned eventually: Primaris are pushed at every opportunity. Starter box, Primaris; Battleforces, Primaris; stuff on the shelves, Primaris; every single new release, Primaris.

 

Firstborn are being quietly hidden. GW learned from WHFB/AoS and the introduction of Primaris (very likely that they simply couldn't backpedal on Primaris fully because of them being so far along the pipeline by the time the AoS release backlash arose).

 

3 hours ago, Jorin Helm-splitter said:

I actually think the first big test for firstborn was the last dataslate. The free upgrades affected a lot of their units, and I don't think they would've bothered to fix a lot of those units if they didn't have plans for them.

See, I have the feeling that the Dataslate gave Firstborn such a boost simply because GW didn't care enough to actually put effort into balancing Marines because a new Codex is coming soon. Free wargear on almost everything is incredibly lazy and bad for internal balance (eg, why take a Grav Gun over a Plasma Gun when they both cost the same, and that same is 0pts). Personally, I don't think the Dataslate "fixed" anything, because it was a such a low effort attempt.

 

I fully expect a new Marine Codex will come out in the next 3-6 months, whether that is because of 10E or not is not quite clear but seems likely.

 

2 hours ago, redmapa said:

There will be a lot of fat to trim in the firstborn range

The Firstborn range has few duplicate units, pretty much everything is modular. Primaris are the opposite: units are entirely separate from others even when they should simply be wargear options (eg, Infiltrators/Incursors; and my guess is that Hellblasters/Desolators will be separate datasheets when they should be weapon options like Intercessor bolt rifles).

[Captain Idaho]

It is true the current Space Marines Codex has separate datasheets that could definitely be included within a single unit. Though I don't think that necessarily means the models themselves are superfluous.

[Blindhamster]

33 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Yeah, this is one of the main reasons why I feel that Firstborn will be canned eventually: Primaris are pushed at every opportunity. Starter box, Primaris; Battleforces, Primaris; stuff on the shelves, Primaris; every single new release, Primaris.

 

Firstborn are being quietly hidden. GW learned from WHFB/AoS and the introduction of Primaris (very likely that they simply couldn't backpedal on Primaris fully because of them being so far along the pipeline by the time the AoS release backlash arose).

 

See, I have the feeling that the Dataslate gave Firstborn such a boost simply because GW didn't care enough to actually put effort into balancing Marines because a new Codex is coming soon. Free wargear on almost everything is incredibly lazy and bad for internal balance (eg, why take a Grav Gun over a Plasma Gun when they both cost the same, and that same is 0pts). Personally, I don't think the Dataslate "fixed" anything, because it was a such a low effort attempt.

 

I fully expect a new Marine Codex will come out in the next 3-6 months, whether that is because of 10E or not is not quite clear but seems likely.

 

The Firstborn range has few duplicate units, pretty much everything is modular. Primaris are the opposite: units are entirely separate from others even when they should simply be wargear options (eg, Infiltrators/Incursors; and my guess is that Hellblasters/Desolators will be separate datasheets when they should be weapon options like Intercessor bolt rifles).

Not sure I agree on hellblasters/desolation squad, I like the three variants of hellblasters (and actually have a squad of each lol), desolation squad have their own distinct rules based on rumours.

 

I do think incursors/infiltrators are a more valid point though as they don’t have weapon variants, honestly I do think we’ll see them get merged as a phobos strike team, per kill team though. 

[Captain Idaho]

I don't like that GW gave Primaris 3 types of plasma gun, 6 types of bolter etc. It's unnecessary bloat. Consider it this was round - imagine a game where every race did things this way and produced a new weapon for every datasheet (though GW are doing this lately and people ARE unhappy with 9th edition bloat...) and we can consider it a poor way to operate a rules intensive game.

 

Sure some variants for specialist units are occasionally fun, like the Avenger shuriken catapult compared to other shuriken catapults, but it would be painful if there's 6 different lasguns, or 12 Ork Shootas, or even just 3 variant fleshborers...

 

Marines need that changed.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Kallas]

38 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Not sure I agree on hellblasters/desolation squad, I like the three variants of hellblasters (and actually have a squad of each lol), desolation squad have their own distinct rules based on rumours.

 

I do think incursors/infiltrators are a more valid point though as they don’t have weapon variants, honestly I do think we’ll see them get merged as a phobos strike team, per kill team though. 

I'm not arguing about the validity of the three Plasma variants, and they could even stay; it's kind of like Intercessors/Assault Intercessors, there's no real need for them to be two separate Datasheets, particularly when we have the Veteran Intercessor Datasheet (which is a prime example of Datasheet bloat, by the way...adds literally nothing to the Codex, it's simply Intercessors with +1 A/+1 Ld, and nothing else) which easily combines the Int/AInt sheets together pretty seamlessly.

 

This is why it's infuriating that some  people go on about "reducing bloat" and talk about removing Firstborn when Primaris are far bigger offenders. There are some Firstborn Datasheets that should be combined (and they used to be) such as Predators and the Land Speeder variants, but there are way more Primaris Datasheets that should be combined to save on page space.

 

54 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

It is true the current Space Marines Codex has separate datasheets that could definitely be included within a single unit. Though I don't think that necessarily means the models themselves are superfluous.

I wasn't meaning models, though I could definitely see them as a multipart modular kit instead of standalone boxes (though it's too late for that now). Considering that shelf space is at a premium in physical stores, and the alleged reasoning for cycling out older miniatures (almost exclusively Firstborn) for Made To Order, or otherwise being Legends'd and sunsetted entirely, is that they want to make room for more lines it's certainly odd that they would go with single-unit boxes when multipart boxes are generally very popular - and we have some Primaris units in that formula (Infiltrators/Incursors as an example).

 

Maybe there are enough model difference to matter, but not sure - it doesn't feel like it, but we haven't got full hands-on looks at the Desolators yet, so it's possible; but it definitely feels like an odd decision either way.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

42 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Yeah, this is one of the main reasons why I feel that Firstborn will be canned eventually: Primaris are pushed at every opportunity. Starter box, Primaris; Battleforces, Primaris; stuff on the shelves, Primaris; every single new release, Primaris.

 

Firstborn are being quietly hidden. GW learned from WHFB/AoS and the introduction of Primaris (very likely that they simply couldn't backpedal on Primaris fully because of them being so far along the pipeline by the time the AoS release backlash arose).

 

See, I have the feeling that the Dataslate gave Firstborn such a boost simply because GW didn't care enough to actually put effort into balancing Marines because a new Codex is coming soon. Free wargear on almost everything is incredibly lazy and bad for internal balance (eg, why take a Grav Gun over a Plasma Gun when they both cost the same, and that same is 0pts). Personally, I don't think the Dataslate "fixed" anything, because it was a such a low effort attempt.

 

I fully expect a new Marine Codex will come out in the next 3-6 months, whether that is because of 10E or not is not quite clear but seems likely.

 

The Firstborn range has few duplicate units, pretty much everything is modular. Primaris are the opposite: units are entirely separate from others even when they should simply be wargear options (eg, Infiltrators/Incursors; and my guess is that Hellblasters/Desolators will be separate datasheets when they should be weapon options like Intercessor bolt rifles).

 

Primaris stuff should be pushed in starters. They tend to have mono-loadouts and in general Primaris units have a high floor because they're easy to understand. Tacticals in starters have tended to suffer because they don't give them all the options, and even if they did a new player has to figure out what's good. Granted If Valrak's sources are right we'll have firstborn termies in a starter soon. 

 

If they didn't care enough to put effort into balancing Firstborn in the data slate, I don't think they would've given them anything. Honestly, if they were ramping up to push them out why in the world would they give them a second wound? I do agree that it was lazy, but in goonhammer's competitive innovation articles I'm seeing scouts, assault marines, and sternguard which honestly is more of a shakeup than marines have had in a while (I will concede that "fix" was too strong of word). I do think that they have a floor in mind for how many points a marine would cost, and I also think that they're seeing the consequences of pushing certain options like Multi-Melta as hard as they did.

 

Yeah 6 months sounds right, new edition in the summer, and marines will probably be the first book.

 

The primaris lineup does have a lot of overlap, but I think we view the bloat as problem, whereas GW just gets to use "the biggest marine codex ever" marketing spiel. 

 

 

[WrathOfTheLion]

It's circumstantial, but I did notice in the most recent White Dwarf, they were talking about the Blood Angels and just described them as 'Captain', 'Intercessors', 'Sanguinary Priest', 'Librarian', etc.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"… Valrak's sources are right we'll have firstborn termies in a starter soon."

 

This could just be confusion with the new terminator unit for Horus Heresy… but maybe they’ll get a 40K data slate. Sure hope the new plastic jetbikes do .

Edited February 19, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY