Do you think firstborn marines will be discontinued?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There’s absolutely no basis for it since there are Inceptors.

[Captain Idaho]

30 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Aggressors are not Terminators. There are no jump pack terminators nor will there be. That I want Primaris Terminators should not concern you.

 

 

The fact people want Firstborn Terminators should not concern you, but you didn't like people discussing it and even put happy reactions onto the close topic post.

 

Aggressors aren't Terminators but I think originally GW wanted them to be and didn't realise the feeling towards Terminators was stronger than the replacement we got. They're not in the Deathwing which is the most telling indication.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The thing is you’ve already got FB Terminators though, including the relic version. From everything I’ve heard it’s pretty much a sure thing we will see Primaris Terminators.

[Captain Idaho]

The Firstborn Terminators are out of date and could do with updating. People want them updated. Trusted sources have said they're getting updated.

[Kallas]

52 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

That I want Primaris Terminators should not concern you.

Primaris Terminators are a concern, though.

 

Primaris folks like yourself keep talking about how Firstborn aren't going anywhere, and GW originally stated that Firstborn wouldn't go anywhere. If Primaris Terminators happen then they are a direct replacement of a Firstborn unit; and such a thing is something that folks, like yourself, have constantly said isn't happening because Primaris are not replacing Firstborn.

 

Primaris Terminators would represent a major step in Primaris replacing Firstborn, so it is, in fact, something to be concerned with.

 

As far as Aggressors being a Primaris equivalent of Terminators, simply they are. They aren't First Company, but they fulfill the exact same role: they have anti-infantry shooting, and more than Terminators (2x3 + 1d6 each); and they have Power Fists for melee, with more attacks than Terminators. They do exactly the same role with minor differences (eg, T5 vs Sv2+). Like it or not, these are Terminator equivalents for Primaris. Asking for Primaris Terminators is like Firstborn players asking for Firstborn Inceptors or, probably more accurately, asking for Devastator Squads that can field a full 10 heavy weapons like Hellblasters/Desolaters - it would be 100% directly competing with those units instead of being a marginally different option.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

As soon as I see a Terminator with a jump pack I’ll readily agree that Aggressors are TEQ.

[Kallas]

1 minute ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

As soon as I see a Terminator with a jump pack I’ll readily agree that Aggressors are TEQ.

Weird hill to die on.

 

Aggressors are Gravis, Gravis is not only Aggressors. Not sure why you struggle with that, but you do you.

[Captain Idaho]

Sorted:

 

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Geedub take my $$$ 

[Sir Clausel]

I cant stop but think of this abomination....

 

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxfHzzpP3eQRYtwAC1Jrw83NEGGIxqn77v

[Kallas]

Just now, Sir Clausel said:

I cant stop but think of this abomination....

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxfHzzpP3eQRYtwAC1Jrw83NEGGIxqn77v

 

DoW3 was...so bad.

It also just felt like such a sloppy game compared to DoW1 and 2. 1 was more traditionally RTS-like, close to Company of Heroes; 2 felt much closer to tabletop and lore at the same time and was very slick. 3 was loose and lost both the character of 2 and the solidity of 1.

 

But anyway. Yeah, Terminators don't have Jump Packs because having a heavy suit with Jump Pack would be kind of stupid. Oh, hi Inceptors 

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Aggressors are not Terminators.

And Terminators are not Primaris! If you want Terminators, play Terminators. If you want Primaris, play Primaris. The two can coexist.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

We shall see what we see… 

[Blindhamster]

51 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

And Terminators are not Primaris! If you want Terminators, play Terminators. If you want Primaris, play Primaris. The two can coexist.

Terminators could be primaris though, thats the point.

Honestly, I think we will end up seeing:

 

new terminator kit, scaled appropriate to primaris (i.e. the heads will sit a smidge higher than primaris heads on those minis), but it won't have the primaris keyword (because said keyword apparently won't be a thing anymore), and the actual lore for them will simply say that firstborn (or whatever term the codex opts to sue for them) and primaris BOTH go into suits of terminator armour, making them a legitimately mixed squad representing the best of the best from either type.

Regardless, I can't see it being a dramatic change in design, because i think they'll specifically still have indomitus terminator armour on (which we know can already be modified for different size marines).

 

That's my expectation. I DON'T think we'll see them natively have the primaris keyword, because I don't think it'll be a thing anymore. IF it is a thing, then I suspect it'll be done as an optional keyword. I also don't for one minute believe there will be a new model release that won't tie it in some way to the "modern" marines, even if it's just in the writeup.

[Captain Idaho]

I think you're pretty close to what we'll see in the end. This is GW's biggest move in 40K in many ways since Primaris first released. Terminators are key to the history and theme of 40K, truly iconic - they have to get it right.

 

That means they can't be too bold and change them completely.

 

Also remember Chaos and Grey Knights have Terminators so they can't be too drastically different. Well, not unless GW are releasing new Chaos and Grey Knight Terminators imminently.

 

Or have total disrespect for the lore and just..., oh wait.

[redmapa]

Chaos already has new Terminators, they are identical to the old ones.

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

Terminators could be primaris though, thats the point.

I guess the big question is: why do Primaris need to have Terminators specifically? Primaris have, previously, not fully overlapped any Firstborn units, they have their own nuLegion style units with minimal options (ie, units have a fixed loadout for all members; only a few units break this, typically Troops like Heavy Intercessors with their Heavy Bolter variants). So I guess why do Primaris players feel like they need Terminators in particular, and not some other kind of heavy infantry that fits with the Primaris principle; and further, why do they feel that Aggressors don't already fill that role (bar lack of Deep Strike)?

[Orange Knight]

I would be happy with the classic Marines continuing to exist and receive codex support if their range is aggressively cut down and streamlined.

 

A lot of units can be merged. Others can simply be retired to legends.

 

On the topic of Terminators, if the Primaris keyword is removed they could be quite coy about them if they are indeed coming. I don't see why Marines would ever refuse to cross the Rubicon and over time all will. Hopefully the models are good. They'll need to stand apart from past updated Terminator models that played it very safe with the proportions. Aside from Abaddon very few look right. It's a chance to fix that!

Edited February 21, 2023 by Orange Knight

[WrathOfTheLion]

If they update the kit and the codex is revamped like that, they may just say, 'The marine in the suit is either firstborn or Primaris, whatever you feel like they are'.

 

As for datasheet consolidation, there's a good bit in the Primaris range that needs that too, especially if they're going to continue to add units at the rate they currently do. Although it won't reduce them, the most recent Lieutenant kit is a good sign that some of the ridiculous parts might get addressed, notably the ridiculous contortions that datasheet had to only allow for released miniatures.

 

I'd personally like to see them squash especially the HQ datasheets if keyword distinctions are removed, that'd drop a good number right there.

Edited February 21, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Captain Idaho]

The Firstborn line doesn't need much trimming down at all. It's only got by necessity

 

• Tactical

• Assault

• Devastator

• Terminator

• Vanguard

• Sternguard

• Scout (feasibly Primaris too)

• Company Veterans

• Centurions

• Relic Terminators

 

Then Assault Centurions, Assault Terminators and Relic Terminators on top, which could easily be rolled into existing datasheets.

 

The vehicles could similarly be rolled into single entries, like 3rd edition did.

 

Siege class Rhino Chasis - T8 vehicles with Demolisher, Hunter or Stalker options.

 

Rhino Chasis - T7 and faster tanks with Predator and variants and Razorback and Rhino options etc.

 

Be easy to do.

 

A Codex for them specifically already has the miniatures and GW can update them as needed. Ham up a rogue theme even as they rejected the new Imperium and Primarch.

 

Man there's so much that could be done and it's easy and a licence to print money.

 

Won't happen though. Just showing how easy it would be to work out off the topc of my head.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I'm down to squash down Predators, Land Speeders, etc. back to singular datasheets, but they may as well squash down Storm Speeders and Gladiators for the same reason. Just right there across both you'd be down 7 datasheets I think? Merge the two as Captain, Apothecary, Champion, Librarian, Chaplain, etc. and you could quite easily drop 15-20 datasheets out of the book without much fanfare.

 

The obvious conclusion here is not only is the range large, but the Codex is quite bloated. Add all the needlessly specific strategems on top of that, and it's really not an easy army to get into.

[Kallas]

20 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I would be happy with the classic Marines continuing to exist and receive codex support if their range is aggressively cut down and streamlined.

 

A lot of units can be merged. Others can simply be retired to legends.

I would say the same stupid thing about Primaris 

 

Seriously, the amount of units that need combining is far more in the Primaris ballpark than the Firstborn one.

 

And which units should be retired, and why? Because of new Primaris units? If that's the case, how is that coexisting?

[WrathOfTheLion]

On both sides of that, everyone is obviously going to say 'the toys that the other guy uses and I don't need to be the ones that get cut', but the bloat isn't unique to either side of there. The Codex is just bloated.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Seems to me removing the Primaris keyword makes the codex more difficult, especially for HQ when there’s such a notable difference between say a Primaris Captain and a FB Captain for example.

[WrathOfTheLion]

3 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Seems to me removing the Primaris keyword makes the codex more difficult, especially for HQ when there’s such a notable difference between say a Primaris Captain and a FB Captain for example.

It could be, but at that point they could just retire say the FB Techmarine and just say the Primaris one is the updated sculpt. Use your old one, or buy the new one, but that's the techmarine.

 

It'd probably come with a lot of reduction in options, but look at what they did to Chaos Marine loadouts... If that is their new policy, then there's a big shakeup going to happen eventually on wargear.

Edited February 21, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion
added second paragraph