Do you think firstborn marines will be discontinued?

[Kallas]

1 minute ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

On both sides of that, everyone is obviously going to say 'the toys that the other guy uses and I don't need to be the ones that get cut', but the bloat isn't unique to either side of there. The Codex is just bloated.

The problem is that Primaris units literally didn't need to exist. Their presence is simply the one forcing the issue, yet they contribute to bloat more than Firstborn, and some think that new = better without any real basis.

 

Are there Firstborn units that need squished together? Yes, like you pointed out, Predators, Land Speeders and Land Raiders. Are there Primaris units that need squished together? Yes, as you said, at least the Gladiators and Storm Speeders - but the thing is that more and more Primaris units will come out and demand more and more space... Which inevitably leads to yet more "let's retire Firstborn stuff" instead of asking if these units even need to exist, which the answer is most likely not.

 

Repulsors and Gladiators didn't really need to be made, as they are, functionally, duplicates of Land Raiders and Predators, but 'new' so they can sell more. So why is the bloat issue being so squarely aimed at Firstborn? It's ridiculous.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

25 minutes ago, WrathOfTheLion said:

It could be, but at that point they could just retire say the FB Techmarine and just say the Primaris one is the updated sculpt. Use your old one, or buy the new one, but that's the techmarine.

 

It'd probably come with a lot of reduction in options, but look at what they did to Chaos Marine loadouts... If that is their new policy, then there's a big shakeup going to happen eventually on wargear.

I find this hard to buy into. They’d literally have to eliminate certain models from the range.

[Captain Idaho]

GW has got a thing about eliminating the need and purpose for kitbashing for a few years now. I can see lots of options going away if they combined Firstborn and Primaris into the same datasheets with a note earlier in the book about "older models still counting."

 

Which I'm totally against. I would have preferred the increase in GW's technological expertise with miniatures to expand their modular kits not reduce them. It's totally 2 steps backwards after a step forward in technological progress. 

 

In fact, if I was a Primaris fan I'd be clamouring for a multi-part, modular kit I could kit bash easily and pose my models in all sorts of customisable ways.

 

I remember the good old days where people showed off their Captains and Chapter Masters, with no 2 looking the same. Gone are those days, sadly. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A lot of this goes back to Chapterhouse… those were dark days indeed.

[Blindhamster]

44 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

GW has got a thing about eliminating the need and purpose for kitbashing for a few years now. I can see lots of options going away if they combined Firstborn and Primaris into the same datasheets with a note earlier in the book about "older models still counting."

 

Which I'm totally against. I would have preferred the increase in GW's technological expertise with miniatures to expand their modular kits not reduce them. It's totally 2 steps backwards after a step forward in technological progress. 

 

In fact, if I was a Primaris fan I'd be clamouring for a multi-part, modular kit I could kit bash easily and pose my models in all sorts of customisable ways.

 

I remember the good old days where people showed off their Captains and Chapter Masters, with no 2 looking the same. Gone are those days, sadly. 

I can already kitbash primaris kits of the same mkX variant super easily, and I much prefer the better poses and more logical abdominal detail to the old approach for waists as that’s the only real difference these days.

 

(for Phobos you have rievers and the infiltrator/incursor kit plus eliminators with a lot of cross compatibility, for tacticus you can easily mix and match both types of intercessors with the hellblaster and by the look of it desolation squad variants, plus then there’s the snap fit intercessors and assault intercessors as well as the crusader squad… a lot of arm and body/leg combos there these days, very little reason to have duplicate poses in the army, let alone squads tbh, even gravis can realistically mix and match eradicators and heavy intercessors, with aggressors being an option, albeit a less desirable one)

 

 

totally agree on bloat across both firstborn and primaris. And if they get rid of keywords as has been said a few times, I could see even some of those being combined (like tacticals and intercessors as mentioned before).

 

combining landspeeders so there’s two variants (stormspeeder and landspeeder), having a single Gladius and single predator sheet, a single repulsor sheet (why can’t the executioner gun just be a weapon option?) single land raider sheet etc.

 

veteran intercessors and stern guard may as well just be the same thing (or just make a veteran sheet that combines veteran intercessors, vanguard and stern guard)

 

devastators don’t easily combine with hellblasters or desolation squads sadly, but as others said, the latter two might reasonably be merged.

 

the Phobos units could become a Phobos strike team unit

 

bike and outriders could be combined maybe etc

 

p.s. I’m fairly sure my captains looks different from most peoples lol.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Blindhamster

[Tacitus]

5 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

GW has got a thing about eliminating the need and purpose for kitbashing for a few years now. I can see lots of options going away if they combined Firstborn and Primaris into the same datasheets with a note earlier in the book about "older models still counting."

 

Which I'm totally against. I would have preferred the increase in GW's technological expertise with miniatures to expand their modular kits not reduce them. It's totally 2 steps backwards after a step forward in technological progress. 

 

In fact, if I was a Primaris fan I'd be clamouring for a multi-part, modular kit I could kit bash easily and pose my models in all sorts of customisable ways.

 

I remember the good old days where people showed off their Captains and Chapter Masters, with no 2 looking the same. Gone are those days, sadly. 

I miss the legs, two chest piece, head, assorted arms builds and hope they get back to that assembly system soon.  It made the Chapter Specific chestpiece fronts a no brainer.  Imagine how cool the BGV would be with that kind of upgrade sprue - wolf pelts, dragon skins, etc. instead of the hard "coded" UM roman skirt thing. 

[Tacitus]

6 hours ago, Kallas said:

The problem is that Primaris units literally didn't need to exist. Their presence is simply the one forcing the issue, yet they contribute to bloat more than Firstborn, and some think that new = better without any real basis.

 

Are there Firstborn units that need squished together? Yes, like you pointed out, Predators, Land Speeders and Land Raiders. Are there Primaris units that need squished together? Yes, as you said, at least the Gladiators and Storm Speeders - but the thing is that more and more Primaris units will come out and demand more and more space... Which inevitably leads to yet more "let's retire Firstborn stuff" instead of asking if these units even need to exist, which the answer is most likely not.

 

Repulsors and Gladiators didn't really need to be made, as they are, functionally, duplicates of Land Raiders and Predators, but 'new' so they can sell more. So why is the bloat issue being so squarely aimed at Firstborn? It's ridiculous.

First off, I'm not a fan of the word "bloat" in this scenario at all because it's usually being chosen for the negative implications - diseased and so on. 

 

The Rule of Three also says those units are not "bloat".  If I make the Spear of Macragge list, I pretty much need Predators on two different Datasheets(and I need to be able to take Razorbacks without putting someone in them - but that's a different thing), Ravenwing and Deathwing can say the much same thing about speeders and Terminators.  Most armies don't run into it, but that doesn't mean the armies that do run into it don't need them to stay that way to work. 

 

Many of the "can be the same datasheet" arguments also fail to recognized GW is trying very hard to avoid "after-market" statline modifications.  The Heavy Intercessor Captain and Primaris Captain in Power Armor are different datasheets because the Heavy Intercessor has a different movement stat - and they don't want to many If-Then-If-Then-Else-If-Then-If-Then-Etc. threaded options lists. 

[Kallas]

35 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

First off, I'm not a fan of the word "bloat" in this scenario at all because it's usually being chosen for the negative implications - diseased and so on. 

I don't disagree, but also that's the term that the community in general (not just here, but pretty much everywhere I've seen) uses to refer to the size of Marine stuff, and rules volume on general.

 

36 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

The Rule of Three also says those units are not "bloat".  [...]  Most armies don't run into it, but that doesn't mean the armies that do run into it don't need them to stay that way to work. 

Again, I don't disagree, but there's demand for some ground to give, and combining Datasheets is one of the simplest ways to reduce Datasheet volume - and realistically the Rule of Three is a pretty bad rule, only implemented because of the demands of competitive efficiency.

 

There can still be some exceptions to the Rule, such as having Deathwing Terminator Squads as a separate Datasheet in the Dark Angels book/section (as it's possible we might see supplements get collapsed into the main book: unlikely, because it's a cash cow, but still).

 

41 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Many of the "can be the same datasheet" arguments also fail to recognized GW is trying very hard to avoid "after-market" statline modifications.  The Heavy Intercessor Captain and Primaris Captain in Power Armor are different datasheets because the Heavy Intercessor has a different movement stat - and they don't want to many If-Then-If-Then-Else-If-Then-If-Then-Etc. threaded options lists. 

Eh, I think this is kind of weak. It's perfectly feasible to make a decent multi-profile Datasheet based on which baseline a model is. GW doesn't seem to want to put in the effort to do this in the ostensible interests of keeping it simple - which is again a case of them treating players with kid gloves. Kids might need it, but as I've mentioned before they're not really the ones that are super invested in the rules anyway; and if they are then they'll learn it as easily as any adult.

 

A multi-threaded Datasheet is ultimately not that complex and would serve to save space and centralise options (ie, you just look at the Captain Datasheet, you don't have to find the right Captain Datasheet).

 

Also, love that the Primaris folks are just ignoring the fact that their units are the 'bloat'. They'll literally just ignore that argument because it's defenceless, so they just keep on with the "Firstborn should get Legends'ded to make room!" crap.

[Marshal Reinhard]

GW even likes naming different loadouts to justify them being sepperate datasheets. They even go so far as listing their own physical kits, multiple times on their site. See "Deathwing squad" "Deathwing Command squad" and "Deathwing Knights" for instance. They clearly don't have a problem with dividing up a units loadouts into multiple datasheets.

 

2 hours ago, Kallas said:

Also, love that the Primaris folks are just ignoring the fact that their units are the 'bloat'. They'll literally just ignore that argument because it's defenceless,

Its not even an objective argument. Its pure opinion. To a primaris only player, a bunch of legacy units they will never touch is bloat. You obviously fall on the other side, so consider the new additions bloat, but there's nothing intrinsic about either set of units that make them the bloat. The timing of their introduction has no relevance, it simply divides it into new and old. Your continued insistence that "primaris don't need to exist" is equally worthless as "classic marines don't need to exist any longer". All worthless opinion.

[Kallas]

14 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Its not even an objective argument. Its pure opinion.

It's not though. One line existed, then another line comes along and the old line is bloat? No, the new line is literally adding stuff that didn't need to be added.

 

14 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

but there's nothing intrinsic about either set of units that make them the bloat

Craftworld Eldar are not a bloated line, but if you add PrimEldar, who are just Eldar 'but better' with units that do almost the same thing but technically not, then the PrimEldar are bloating the line because they are frivolous additions. That's the situation with Primaris: they introduced "new" things that really did not need to be introduced, hence they are bloat.

 

What is a Gladiator if not functionally a Predator? Intercessors are bloat, Primaris characters are bloat. Very few Primaris units fill a role that did not already have an existing Firstborn unit - that is bloat.

 

14 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Your continued insistence that "primaris don't need to exist" is equally worthless as "classic marines don't need to exist any longer". All worthless opinion.

Primaris don't need to exist. They never did, and the only reason they do is to drive profit, which Firstborn already did. Primaris are entirely irrelevant and never needed to be created.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Kallas

[Marshal Reinhard]

17 minutes ago, Kallas said:

It's not though. One line existed, then another line comes along and the old line is bloat? No, the new line is literally adding stuff that didn't need to be added.

Irrelevant. Your historic attachment is purely sentimental favoritism. Its not objective. It's opinion. It may sound good in your ears to spin it that way. "The new line added stuff that was desperately needed" is an equally valid opinion. It's funny how that works, isn't it?

 

17 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Craftworld Eldar are not a bloated line, but if you add PrimEldar, who are just Eldar 'but better' with units that do almost the same thing but technically not, then the PrimEldar are bloating the line because they are frivolous additions. That's the situation with Primaris: they introduced "new" things that really did not need to be introduced, hence they are bloat.

 

What is a Gladiator if not functionally a Predator? Intercessors are bloat, Primaris characters are bloat. Very few Primaris units fill a role that did not already have an existing Firstborn unit - that is bloat.

Opinion. I get it. Primaris introduction really stepped on your toes. Rustled your jimmies. But this still is all opinion. "With intercessors introduced, Tacticals are just bloat now. Old outdated classic characters are bloat. Very few classical units fill a role now that's not also being filled by a new better primaris unit - they are bloat". See how opinions work?`Neither what you wrote, or my spin on it is anything but opinion. 

 

17 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Primaris don't need to exist. They never did, and the only reason they do is to drive profit, which Firstborn already did. Primaris are entirely irrelevant and never needed to be created.

Feel like a parrot here. Opinion. "With Primaris introduced, classic don't need to exist and the only reason they do this is to drive nostalgia. Primaris made classic entirely irrelevant and needed to be created"

 

You've not given me a single objective argument here. Its all based on your opinion. "2 units now exist for the same role? Axe the one I don't like!" that you favor the older line counts for nothing

Edited February 22, 2023 by Marshal Reinhard
grammar

[DesuVult]

38 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

GW even likes naming different loadouts to justify them being sepperate datasheets. They even go so far as listing their own physical kits, multiple times on their site. See "Deathwing squad" "Deathwing Command squad" and "Deathwing Knights" for instance. They clearly don't have a problem with dividing up a units loadouts into multiple datasheets.

GW appears to like larger codices, they use size as a selling point for them in WarCom articles.

[Kallas]

7 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Irrelevant. Your historic attachment is purely sentimental favoritism. Its not objective. It's opinion. It may sound good in your ears to spin it that way. "The new line added stuff that was desperately needed" is an equally valid opinion. It's funny how that works, isn't it?

Except it didn't add stuff that was desperately needed. Outriders are literally just the existing Bikers. How was that "desperately needed"? Eradicators are functionally Centurions; Aggressors are functionally Terminators; Intercessors are just Tacticals.

 

These are all things that didn't need to be introduced, because they already had units that do those same damn things. It isn't opinion, it's just an uncomfortable truth.

 

8 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Opinion. I get it. Primaris introduction really stepped on your toes. Rustled your jimmies. But this still is all opinion. "With intercessors introduced, Tacticals are just bloat now. Old outdated classic characters are bloat. Very few classical units fill a role now that's not also being filled by a new better primaris unit - they are bloat". See how opinions work?`Neither what you wrote, or my spin on it is anything but opinion. 

Except one thing existed, and that wasn't bloat until the "new" thing was added. That's what bloat is, adding unnecessary things. Most Primaris units are barely different from Firstborn units, thereby making them bloat. Retroactively saying that the older preexisting units are bloat is just revisionism.

 

10 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

You've not given me a single objective argument here. Its all based on your opinion. "2 units now exist for the same role? Axe the one I don't like!" that you favor the older line counts for nothing

Nah, just because you ignore reality does not make something untrue.

 

It's not "axe the one I don't like" it's "one literally did not need to be created". If Intercessors were first, there would be no reason to introduce the Tactical; but that's not the way it happened, Primaris were introduced and their units fill no role that was not already covered bar maybe the Inceptors.

 

This is why people that want to axe Firstborn "rustle my jimmies" - because they want their thing which exists for no good reason. There is no good reason to remove Firstborn, but because they've bought into Primaris, they want to remove my stuff to make room for their own; that isn't reasonable, so why the  shouldn't I be mad when they want to remove my damn stuff?

[Marshal Reinhard]

3 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Except it didn't add stuff that was desperately needed. Outriders are literally just the existing Bikers. How was that "desperately needed"? Eradicators are functionally Centurions; Aggressors are functionally Terminators; Intercessors are just Tacticals.

You really struggle with this don't you. That's your OPINION. Things already existed? Wonderful, those existing things can now be axed safely when the new superior alternatives were added. That's also OPINION. Nothing about either statement is objective fact.

 

I could quote the rest of your post back at you to continue this charade, but we arrive at the same impasse, your opinion that Primaris didn't need to be created, that they are the bloat, is in fact just that: opinion. I'm perfectly fine with leaving you to your opinions. I only started quoting you when you wrote:

3 hours ago, Kallas said:

Also, love that the Primaris folks are just ignoring the fact that their units are the 'bloat'. They'll literally just ignore that argument because it's defenceless, 

as if you had made a point. Fact is I don't, or anyone else, have no need to "defend" against opinion. Good day to you.

[Kallas]

3 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

You really struggle with this don't you. That's your OPINION. Things already existed? Wonderful, those existing things can now be axed safely when the new superior alternatives were added. That's also OPINION. Nothing about either statement is objective fact.

You really struggle with things doing exactly the same thing being redundant.

 

The examples I gave are perfect examples of Primaris doing things that already existed, hence being bloat.

 

Bury your head in the sand, it's fine, you don't need to think when you just blindly accept things.

 

Edit: It's also worth noting that there's a massive difference between, "Primaris should not have been made" and "Firstborn should be gotten rid." I accept Primaris are here to stay, regardless of my feelings; but some people want to remove the things I enjoy because they want more stuff. These are not the same.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Kallas

[Orange Knight]

From the classic range there are a lot of units that are niche or simply not very worthwhile.

 

Assault Marines (Vanguard are the same unit but better), the Whirlwind (A desolator Sgt has the same weapon), Hunter and Stalker, the tiny landspeeders, Scouts (ugly!), Techmarines and Servitors, the old command squad, the Squat Dreads etc, the Relic Terminators (these belong in the HH). All these models can be sent to legends.

 

Currently there are units that can be equipped with specific wargear that are very effective. Vanguard Vets and Devastators are two such units. I have a feeling that in the next codex update they'll follow the same pattern established with other recent books: They'll only be able to take the wargear that's in the box. This will impact those units as they won't be able to focus on certain weapons across the full squad, so no more Dev Squads with 4 Multi Meltas, as an example.

 

The Primaris range also needs consolidation. The HQ units and the Storm Speeders and Gladiators could definitely be merged into fewer datasheets, for example.

 

Some "Firstborn" models that I would love to see in the codex, provided it is consolidated and more manageable would be things like the Spartan and Kratos as Lords of War, as well as the full plastic Contemptor with all the various options.

 

 

[Kallas]

4 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

From the classic range there are a lot of units that are niche or simply not very worthwhile.

 

Assault Marines (Vanguard are the same unit but better), the Whirlwind (A desolator Sgt has the same weapon), Hunter and Stalker, the tiny landspeeders, Scouts (ugly!), Techmarines and Servitors, the old command squad, the Squat Dreads etc, the Relic Terminators (these belong in the HH). All these models can be sent to legends.

If these can go to Legends because they're "niche or simply not very worthwhile" then let's send Suppressors there too; or Bolter Inceptors and just leave the Plasma Inceptors; or Veteran Intercessors...

 

For "not very worthwhile" units, why does that immediately strike you as Legends material, and not improvement to their Datasheet material? Also, why is the Firstborn Techmarine a candidate for Legends? It does something that nothing else in the Firstborn line can do (heal/buff vehicles). By that logic, the Primaris Techmarine should also go to Legends.

[Orange Knight]

The difference is that those units are brand new, and they actually offer something unique in terms of gameplay.

 

I agree some need to be revised. The suppressors in particular need a full kit release with different options. The unit could be a LOT better if they could be taken in larger numbers. All the Primaris units that are limited to 3 per squad need to be revised, perhaps with the exception of the Eliminators.

 

But we have to face a simple reality. If the wargear on the various Firstborn units across both the generic range and the faction specific books is limited to reflect what comes in the box (this is a real possibility) then their effectiveness will be severely limited in the future.

 

Frankly I don't want to see the old Scout models or the old Bikers on the tabletop - they are not nice to look at. And many of the units I mentioned are literally just pages in a codex and are never seen in games - I own a Stalker btw, and it's the only one I've ever seen in person!

[DesuVult]

I don't think a squad sergeant is a replacement for a vehicle.

[Kallas]

11 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The difference is that those units are brand new, and they actually offer something unique in terms of gameplay.

That's it, that's the argument: "they're new" 

For "unique" it's very much not the case for most Primaris units.

 

This is what absolutely boggles my mind with Primaris crowd. Outriders are unique? They're literally Bikers with fewer options. Intercessors are unique? They're just Tactical Marines with fewer options. Most Primaris units are just existing Firstborn units with fewer options. The majority of them are not unique, they're just new, which is just a terrible justification for removing the older units.

 

14 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Frankly I don't want to see the old Scout models or the old Bikers on the tabletop - they are not nice to look at.

I don't want to see Aggressors or Suppressors, or Invader ATVs on the tabletop - they are not nice to look at. This is such a ridiculous argument because it's entirely subjective to one's aesthetic preferences.

Hey @Marshal Reinhard, that is an opinion. Thought you might want some help identifying what an opinion is.

 

15 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

And many of the units I mentioned are literally just pages in a codex and are never seen in games - I own a Stalker btw, and it's the only one I've ever seen in person!

For me, I've also never seen Suppressors used in game, so let's remove them! I've also never personally seen anyone use a Gladiator, so let's remove them too! I've not seen anyone, besides myself, use a Librarian of either stripe in quite a while, so let's remove all Librarians from the Codex!

 

I agree that some units look worse than others, but that is very subjective; and I agree that some units are worse than others and so rarely ever see the table - hell, I'd wager that the vast majority of Space Marine players consider Land Raiders to be a bad unit, so by your logic we should get rid of them; but also by your logic, I use them so we shouldn't since I do see them, regularly in fact!

[Sir Clausel]

Nevermind

Edited February 22, 2023 by Sir Clausel

[Karhedron]

OK, can we drop the argument about whether FB or Primaris are (un)necessary please. It is subjective and personal and I don't think any amount of arguing here is going to change peoples' minds.

 

I think we can all agree that the codex currently has more datasheets than it needs and some options could easily be condensed. Exactly how far that goes and which options get condensed is less clear.

[Orange Knight]

@Kallas

 

Ok, so you don't want ANYTHING to be phased out or replaced, ever?

 

That's simply not a realistic expectation. I understand that you hate the Primaris, and you wish they didn't exist. At this point nothing can change the fact that they do.

The Primaris range is gradually replacing the old models in terms of function on the tabletop. They are not exactly the same -but that is the point! The older range, with it's granularity of wargear across units, is more suited to a skirmish game. The Primaris resemble Eldar aspects and are more suited to a wargame.

 

It's not viable to expect a codex book to grow indefinitely, with over 100 datasheets. It becomes hard to balance, it becomes hard to use, it becomes daunting to collect, and it becomes more complex by virtue of the sheer volume. It can't continue to expand forever.

 

Marines are the gateway into the hobby for many. Handing a new player a codex book with 100+ units and 30 pages of wargear is not the way to do that. Primaris do have bloat because some datasheets are inexplicably separated even though they could just be weapon variants on the same unit, and this is something that I expect will get resolved.

 

I want a streamlined codex that is easier to balance, update and looks more consistent on the tabletop. I am personally extremely happy that the Primaris units echo the Horus Heresy units in terms of how they are equipped (a full squad with a singular weapon type or purpose).

 

I don't know what GW will do. Maybe they'll keep everything in one giant tome, maybe they'll split the range, maybe they'll releagate a few units to Legends from one update to the next. Trying to make everyone happy will make no one happy - that's the main problem. Even if the classic models remain in the book, they will still feel neglected by comparison in the long run.

 

 

[Marshal Reinhard]

49 minutes ago, Kallas said:

You really struggle with things doing exactly the same thing being redundant.

I am in fact not struggling at all, but thanks for the consideration. And I suppose congratulations are in order if you picked up on the redundancy? I have in fact not even given you a single opinion of mine, merely stated ones in direct opposition to yours. I was hoping you'd pick up on that.

 

56 minutes ago, Kallas said:

The examples I gave are perfect examples of Primaris doing things that already existed, hence being bloat.

Pfft. In your opinion.

 

Intercessors have the same role as tacticals - intercessors are bloat.

Intercessors have the same role as tacticals - tacticals are bloat.

 

Whichever side the axe falls is purely subjective. Your stubborn refusal to admit this means you are the one with the head in the sand.

[Lord_Ikka]

  =][= Let's keep this on topic and rein in the emotions. =][=