Balance Datalsate Leaks (and implications)

[MrKoolPants]

Video link here for the vid by Auspex Tactics on YT

 

There are a ton of nerfs and points-changes across the faction, but here's the TL;DR for Astra Militarum: 

 

Astra Militarum

• Lose Armour of Contempt (see below)
• Lose the Indirect Fire exemption
• Not too many (if any) changes! 

 

Overall

• Armour of Contempt is GONE for all factions (a massive indirect buff for our new codex)
• Flyers must start off the board (this affect us because one of our challenging matchups is Tau, and right now many competitive Tau lists rely heavily on Sunshark Bombers for their Alpha Strike)

 

Harlequins

• 4+ Invulns moving to 5+ Invulns across the board

 

Tyranids

• BIG points increases across units and wargear

 

Tau

• Suits, Commanders, Kroot go up in points

 

Necrons

• Secondaries nerfed

 

Votann

• Keep their AoC! This is pretty big.
• Also go up in points a little 

 

Daemons

• Flamers no longer auto-hit
• Some points increases

Edited December 28, 2022 by LtColKool

[mertbl]

I'm not real surprised by Votaan keeping AoC, its in their codex after all. 

 

Think harlies are dead on arrival of a 5++. They are t3 and 1w, the 4++ was all they had for survivability. Good thing the t5 3w 2+/4++ custodes keep their invul up. 

[Tokugawa]

That makes AP-1 guns better (especially for which could be improved to AP-2 via orders).

[domsto]

The loss of the Indirect Fire examption makes our Artillery now not a real option anymore...

Hitting most of the time on 5+ isn't great at all.

And for only 10points more you get a Leman Russ which is now the far better option.

I initially though that GW raised the Points on all indirect Fire things in the Codex so noticable because we would keep the exception, but now they seem a bit overcosted at the end.

 

That AoC is now dead is good change. I am even saying this as a Marines Player myselfe.

It made Ap-1 Weapons obsolete and all buffs where you could raise your AP as well.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Generally I’m glad AoC is gone. It was pretty silly to begin with.

 

not surprised our artillery exemption went away. Didn’t make sense for us to be exempt and GW had already said that it was going away. I however don’t understand why they instituted the artillery nerf in the first place. Haven’t heard much of anyone using artillery outside of guard,  nor have I heard much in the way about complaints about people who use artillery.

[greatcrusade08]

im starting to see more utility from  grenade launchers now.. im glad i kept faith with them

[domsto]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Generally I’m glad AoC is gone. It was pretty silly to begin with.

 

not surprised our artillery exemption went away. Didn’t make sense for us to be exempt and GW had already said that it was going away. I however don’t understand why they instituted the artillery nerf in the first place. Haven’t heard much of anyone using artillery outside of guard,  nor have I heard much in the way about complaints about people who use artillery.

Barrage is a pretty overnerf

In the hyper Competetive Scene the Tables mostly work with LoS blocking Blocks.

And the Tau Missle thingi was problematic there. Thats the main reason for the nerf

 

 

[The Pounder]

Hopefully the nerf will go away with our exemption to it.

 

 I’m shelving most of my Artillery for now (waiting on FW to update my Carriages) but will keep a couple of Medusa in the list.

 

I’m pleased Armour of Contempt has gone too. It makes AP-1 relevant again.

 

Glad there weren’t any changes to Guard (you’d hope not given we haven’t had our full release yet!!)

[MrKoolPants]

44 minutes ago, Jud Cottrell said:

Glad there weren’t any changes to Guard (you’d hope not given we haven’t had our full release yet!!)

Agreed. It feels like we ripped the bandaid off early by losing AoC and Indirect Fire in the new ‘dex. Now, with no nerfs, our faction is going to be in a REALLY good spot. 

[jarms48]

I mean, I called it. This balance dataslate does 2 things:

- All of our artillery units are now dead-on-arrival. BS5+, and an AP reduction, at those price points is terrible.

- Scions get yet another indirect nerf with Valkyries being unable to be deployed on the table T1.

 

All this with the real problem of Kasrkins and Roughriders being OP for their point costs aren't even touched. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by jarms48

[Minsc]

Loosing our indirect fire-rule will make me shelf my artillery for the foreseeable future.

- Wyvern (direct) - Average 7x S5 AP1 D1 hits 
- Wyvern (indirect) - Average 4,67x S5 AP- D1 hits.

- Basilisk (direct) - 3,25x S10 AP3 D2 hits

- Basilisk (indirect) - 2,16x S10 AP2 D2 hits.

 

- Manticore (direct) -3,25x S9 AP2 D3 hits.

- Manticore (indirect) - 2,16x S9 AP1 D3 hits.

- Good 'ol Leman russ ("direct") - 4,33x S8 AP2 D3 hits
(The regular Battle Cannon is essentially a mix of the Storm Eagle Rockets and the Earthshaker Cannon.)
So better damange output, +1 T, +1 save, +2 wounds - for 15 points more.

Without the indirect-nerf the Basilisk and Manticore have a spot in lists for sure (the Wyvern however is pretty bad regardless), but with the nerf you pretty much are forced to shoot direct or they won't really kill anything worthwhile - and if you do you might as well just bring a Leman Russ and enjoy increased surviability and damageoutput for a pretty low increase in points. (*I'm purely talking about effectiveness here, fluffy/thematic lists aside.)

Hydras are nice though (but not artillery) and Deathstrikes are worth it for the meme's alone. 

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Minsc

[jarms48]

S in unaffected, but yes. Quite sad.

[MrKoolPants]

Yeah, that’s pretty depressing to see it all laid out like that. 

[Minsc]

8 hours ago, jarms48 said:

S in unaffected, but yes. Quite sad.

Ah true. Doesn't make much of a difference but yeah...

[Emperor Ming]

If the indirect stuff is going to be viable

 

Suffering the affects of the dataslate

 

Lots of points decreases are needed

Edited December 29, 2022 by Emperor Ming

[Lord_Ikka]

Looks like the best option for indirect fire now will be mortar HWT or bombast ordinance batteries with Take Aim! orders directed at them- probably ok for harassing fire or taking on gaunts/guardsmen/maybe chipping off a few SM, but otherwise not really going to put a dent in any enemy's lists.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Lord_Ikka
wrong weapon, corrected

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Looks like the best option for indirect fire now will be mortar HWT or rocket ordinance batteries with Take Aim! orders directed at them- probably ok for harassing fire or taking on gaunts/guardsmen, but otherwise not really going to put a dent in any enemy's lists.

The rocket launcher isn’t indirect fire

[Lord_Ikka]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The rocket launcher isn’t indirect fire

Oops- meant the bombast, not the rockets (which should be indirect...). 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Oops- meant the bombast, not the rockets (which should be indirect...). 

Bombast seems pretty useless now.

Too swingy on the number of shots it gets, but not strong enough to reliably capitalize on the hits it manages to get on those low rolls.

 

so you’re wasting an order on unit just to make it semi-reliable, which means you’re dedicating an HQ to them just make them relatively useful.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Lord_Ikka]

12 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Bombast seems pretty useless now.

Too swingy on the number of shots it gets, but not strong enough to reliably capitalize on the hits it manages to get on those low rolls.

 

so you’re wasting an order on unit just to make it semi-reliable, which means you’re dedicating an HQ to them just make them relatively useful.

I said best option for indirect fire, not a good option overall. Personally, I don't see any use in indirect fire right now- you need massive amount of shots to make it useful with the nerf and as you pointed out, even the best options for it for IG (those that can be ordered to counter the -1 to Hit) are too swingy to reliably provide enough hits. 

[domsto]

Do we know that the Barrage nerf still exsists?

With the removal of AoC GW shows they are willing to remove whole sections of the Balance Dataslate.

And at least in my local meta Indirect Fire (except for the Guard players) was dead since the barrage nerf.

There is a slim chance that GW realize the Barrage nerf was way overtuned and remove/change it

[Lord_Ikka]

6 minutes ago, domsto said:

Do we know that the Barrage nerf still exsists?

With the removal of AoC GW shows they are willing to remove whole sections of the Balance Dataslate.

And at least in my local meta Indirect Fire (except for the Guard players) was dead since the barrage nerf.

There is a slim chance that GW realize the Barrage nerf was way overtuned and remove/change it

According to the leaks, the indirect fire nerf is staying and IG are no longer exempt. 

 

Of course, since both the points update and balance datasheet are digital, unlike the GT pack which is printed, there is the faint possibility that GW will still change from what was leaked. I doubt it, but the possibility is there.

[MrKoolPants]

I’m definitely hoping for an eventual shakeup of the indirect fire nerf. I don’t want to get into wishlisting, but there are a ton of options to balance them that aren’t so harsh. 

[Emperor Ming]

-1 to hit would be less harsh probably

 

But, that might to be to easy to circumnavigate for units like hiveguard and tau

 

and who wants to see the return of hive guard spam

 

Not me that's for sure 

[greatcrusade08]

I think giving all our vehicles turret would solve most of this