How to remove flier restrictions

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

A while ago I was thinking missile launchers for all armies that get them should include an AA weapon profile.

 

now with a rule available to the hydra, and the rule requiring fliers to start the game off the table, I think I have an idea that can allow GW to remove the flier restrictions.

 

1. fliers start off table. 
2. more weapons/profiles that ignore the -1 to hit.

3. More dedicated AA units get the same or similar rule as the hydra has

 

fliers are now much less of a threat

Edited December 30, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[OldWherewolf]

I can't agree on lifting the flier restrictions.  It's too much alpha-strike capability, and alpha-strikes are really bad for the game (IMHO). 

 

I remember a battle a battle report from the Space Wolf channel where the opponent came in with 6 AdMech fliers.  Now, that was a TTS game, but even still.  Lifting the flier restriction just means there's a 50-50 shot the game is over turn 2.  Even the Hydra ability to shoot a flier when it comes in is a strat, so it can only shoot 1 of the 6 fliers.  But in order to deal with 6 fliers, assuming the anti-air doesn't get shot off the board by the fliers the moment they arrive, will take 6+ units, severely limiting the heavy support options of every army in the game. 

 

That being said, I would separate "flyers" into 2 categories:  gunships and transports.  A Valkyrie, even decked-out with the multi-laser, rocket pod and 2 heavy bolters shouldn't be in the same category as the AdMech flyer or the Ork Dakkajet with 36 shots. 

 

It's really hard to balance flyers, as points-wise they are either under-costed or over-powered.  Because of their movement capabilities (9th is won or lost in the movement phase), they are just too hard to balance as there is no hiding from them.  It's why BA are doing better in a game of weak space marines.  It's because they can make you deal with ALL their heavy hitters on turn 2 (and their heavy-hitters aren't OP).  If you can deal with them you win, if you can't, you lose.  Conversely, DG need a way to deal with fast movers because DG is so slow.

 

Now I do agree with you're points 1-3, in that more units need to be brought up to par against aircraft (or FLY units in general).  If anything, it's a way to see a greater variation in the models on the table. 

[MARK0SIAN]

I don’t really think the limit on flyers needs to be lifted to be honest. Even GW said that flyers were always intended to support the armies on the table rather than be the mainstay of a list. 
 

If you really want to play lots of flyers then aeronautica exists for that purpose. I know there might be some cool concepts like an air-cav scions force etc but I think those kind of things would be too niche to be worth removing the flyer restrictions.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, OldWherewolf said:

I can't agree on lifting the flier restrictions.  It's too much alpha-strike capability, and alpha-strikes are really bad for the game (IMHO). 

 

I remember a battle a battle report from the Space Wolf channel where the opponent came in with 6 AdMech fliers.  Now, that was a TTS game, but even still.  Lifting the flier restriction just means there's a 50-50 shot the game is over turn 2.  Even the Hydra ability to shoot a flier when it comes in is a strat, so it can only shoot 1 of the 6 fliers.  But in order to deal with 6 fliers, assuming the anti-air doesn't get shot off the board by the fliers the moment they arrive, will take 6+ units, severely limiting the heavy support options of every army in the game. 

 

That being said, I would separate "flyers" into 2 categories:  gunships and transports.  A Valkyrie, even decked-out with the multi-laser, rocket pod and 2 heavy bolters shouldn't be in the same category as the AdMech flyer or the Ork Dakkajet with 36 shots. 

 

It's really hard to balance flyers, as points-wise they are either under-costed or over-powered.  Because of their movement capabilities (9th is won or lost in the movement phase), they are just too hard to balance as there is no hiding from them.  It's why BA are doing better in a game of weak space marines.  It's because they can make you deal with ALL their heavy hitters on turn 2 (and their heavy-hitters aren't OP).  If you can deal with them you win, if you can't, you lose.  Conversely, DG need a way to deal with fast movers because DG is so slow.

 

Now I do agree with you're points 1-3, in that more units need to be brought up to par against aircraft (or FLY units in general).  If anything, it's a way to see a greater variation in the models on the table. 

My proposal almost completely removed any possibility of a massive alpha strike.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I don’t really think the limit on flyers needs to be lifted to be honest. Even GW said that flyers were always intended to support the armies on the table rather than be the mainstay of a list. 
 

If you really want to play lots of flyers then aeronautica exists for that purpose. I know there might be some cool concepts like an air-cav scions force etc but I think those kind of things would be too niche to be worth removing the flyer restrictions.

And yet there are plenty of fliers that do support lists, but the limit makes those lists unplayable.

 

i feel the same way about super heavies. If you want super heavies play Armageddon. Knights and stompas, and baneblades have no place in normal 40K and break the mechanics, yet here we are.

[MARK0SIAN]

30 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

And yet there are plenty of fliers that do support lists, but the limit makes those lists unplayable.

 

i feel the same way about super heavies. If you want super heavies play Armageddon. Knights and stompas, and baneblades have no place in normal 40K and break the mechanics, yet here we are.

Superheavies do follow most of the same mechanics as other units though. They don’t have outrageous movement that can ignore all terrain so it’s impossible to hide from them, units don’t need a special keyword to be able to charge them and they aren’t harder to hit. In fact they’re easier to hit because they can’t benefit from things like obscuring terrain. I’m going from memory but I also don’t recall any superheavies being such an issue in 9th that they dominated the meta to the same extent that the flyer spam did, certainly not to the extent where they had to be artificially limited.

[Emperor Ming]

Most prob don't want the return to flier spam

 

and if the leaks are true, keeping flyers in reserve, will kill off most bombers and flying transports for good

 

The final nail in the coffin for any lists still using Valkyries 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

Superheavies do follow most of the same mechanics as other units though. They don’t have outrageous movement that can ignore all terrain so it’s impossible to hide from them, units don’t need a special keyword to be able to charge them and they aren’t harder to hit. In fact they’re easier to hit because they can’t benefit from things like obscuring terrain. I’m going from memory but I also don’t recall any superheavies being such an issue in 9th that they dominated the meta to the same extent that the flyer spam did, certainly not to the extent where they had to be artificially limited.

A unit type doesn’t need to dominate the meta to break the game.

[MARK0SIAN]

36 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

A unit type doesn’t need to dominate the meta to break the game.

I’m not sure what you mean by break the game. The superheavies in the game are mediocre at best, even the faction with an entire codex dedicated to them is hardly problematic. Most of the superheavies are pretty poor considering their cost and fragility.

 

Something like the orginal version of the Mechanicus, Drukhari or Votann codex was way more game breaking than anything Superheavies have done. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

I’m not sure what you mean by break the game. The superheavies in the game are mediocre at best, even the faction with an entire codex dedicated to them is hardly problematic. Most of the superheavies are pretty poor considering their cost and fragility.

 

Something like the orginal version of the Mechanicus, Drukhari or Votann codex was way more game breaking than anything Superheavies have done. 

Yes they’re mediocre because the rules for 40K don’t work when you include superheavies.

GW has no way to balance them in the game. Either they’re lamely underpowered or they end up being too OP(which lets face it they should be.)

 

nobody really likes playing 40K with superheavies except those who have invested almost exclusively in superheavies.

[MARK0SIAN]

6 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Yes they’re mediocre because the rules for 40K don’t work when you include superheavies.

GW has no way to balance them in the game. Either they’re lamely underpowered or they end up being too OP(which lets face it they should be.)

 

nobody really likes playing 40K with superheavies except those who have invested almost exclusively in superheavies.

Thats quite a sweeping statement! I have a Knight army but when I’m playing one of my other armies I’m fine with facing a superheavy, they’re generally pretty cool centrepiece models.

 

I (and I imagine others) would much rather face off against superheavies than against flyer spam because at least the superheavies wouldn’t render most of my melee units useless. Flyer spam is possibly the most non-interactive way someone could play the game. It’s right that it’s restricted. 

[Lord_Ikka]

15 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

My proposal almost completely removed any possibility of a massive alpha strike.

Not really- it just moves it to Turn 2, when the flyers come back on the board. So an army like AdMech or T'au with very good flyers just needs to hide turn 1, which isn't difficult on most tournament boards (or at least it is possible) and weather their opponent's turn 1 firing. Come turn 2, their flyers jet onto the table and then delete the opponent's dangerous units, leaving the remaining units to be mopped up. 

 

Giving dedicated anti-air units the Hydra quad-cannon special rule would help, but the problem is most AA units are in Heavy Support slots which are usually very limited/competitive spots in most armies. Having a single AA unit is a decent gamble, depending on your local meta, but more than that and you are running the risk of coming up against armies that don't have aircraft and instead have large monsters/vehicles that anti-air units have trouble dealing with. Limiting flyers to 2 doesn't remove the risk of running without AA, but it does mean that if you take a single AA you most likely won't be punished horribly for it.

 

Does the flyer restriction hurt armies like Scions that kind of depend on a transport? Yes it does. Flyers that are mainly transports should probably have a rule that invalidates the 2-unit limit, which would likely remove any issues with the limit for most players. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Not really- it just moves it to Turn 2, when the flyers come back on the board. So an army like AdMech or T'au with very good flyers just needs to hide turn 1, which isn't difficult on most tournament boards (or at least it is possible) and weather their opponent's turn 1 firing. Come turn 2, their flyers jet onto the table and then delete the opponent's dangerous units, leaving the remaining units to be mopped up. 

 

Giving dedicated anti-air units the Hydra quad-cannon special rule would help, but the problem is most AA units are in Heavy Support slots which are usually very limited/competitive spots in most armies. Having a single AA unit is a decent gamble, depending on your local meta, but more than that and you are running the risk of coming up against armies that don't have aircraft and instead have large monsters/vehicles that anti-air units have trouble dealing with. Limiting flyers to 2 doesn't remove the risk of running without AA, but it does mean that if you take a single AA you most likely won't be punished horribly for it.

 

Does the flyer restriction hurt armies like Scions that kind of depend on a transport? Yes it does. Flyers that are mainly transports should probably have a rule that invalidates the 2-unit limit, which would likely remove any issues with the limit for most players. 

And if you have an AA unit with a rule like the hydra, it helps bracket at least one reducing their ability to kill.

 

also pretty sure T2 is by definition not an alpha strike.

[OldWherewolf]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

also pretty sure T2 is by definition not an alpha strike.

Semantics.  If I can table you turn 2 no matter what, or just cripple your army with almost no capacity to respond, I deem that an alpha strike. 

 

4 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

And if you have an AA unit with a rule like the hydra, it helps bracket at least one reducing their ability to kill.

 

*if*

 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

The problem with removing the limits with fliers is that certain armies will bring 6. Giving players a way to bracket one doesn't really make that a bad plan more so when alot of the AA options are a drawback against other armies. Personally I'd rather see some of the transport fliers become skimmers again. Easier to interact with so you can play theme, without your opponent needing specialists.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Jorin Helm-splitter

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

21 minutes ago, OldWherewolf said:

Semantics.  If I can table you turn 2 no matter what, or just cripple your army with almost no capacity to respond, I deem that an alpha strike. 

 

 

*if*

 

Yes if.

just like armor isn’t an issue if you bring the proper tools, and swarms aren’t an issue if you bring the proper tools.

16 minutes ago, Jorin Helm-splitter said:

The problem with removing the limits with fliers is that certain armies will bring 6. Giving players a way to bracket one doesn't really make that a bad plan more so when alot of the AA is drawback against other armies. Personally I'd rather see some of the transport fliers become skimmers again. Easier to interact with so you can play theme, without your opponent needing specialists.

If you expect to be going against multiple fliers take multiple AA units.

 

 

[MARK0SIAN]

18 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Yes if.

just like armor isn’t an issue if you bring the proper tools, and swarms aren’t an issue if you bring the proper tools.

If you expect to be going against multiple fliers take multiple AA units.

 

 

But as Jorin said in his post, those AA units suffer against non-flyers. Basically flyer heavy lists force you to either spec hard into dealing with them (thus leaving you vulnerable to non-flyer lists) or have no real way of dealing with a flyer heavy list. Spamming anything generally warps the game and leads to a fairly un-fun match but flyers take it to a different level. It’s all very well saying you need to bring the right tools to deal with various threats but that very premise rests on the idea that you’ll be facing a variety of threats, not a spam list. If someone has bought some anti-horde tools but comes up against an army that’s just spamming hordes of stuff they’re still going to have a bad time. 
 

There’s also a difference in what it’s reasonable to expect people to have to include in a generic list. The archetype of some factions is horde so it’s reasonable to expect that people should be prepared to face a horde on a large scale, the archetype of other armies is heavy armour (either individually or in terms of vehicles) so it’s reasonable that people bring tools to deal with that at a large scale. No faction’s overall archetype is ‘mainly flyers’ so it’s not reasonable to expect people to come prepared to deal with flyers at a large scale. AA units are such a specific counter that it’s not fair to expect people to bring multiple of them in a general list. 
 

I think I’m struggling to see why you want to lift the restrictions so much. Which specific flyers is it you want to include in lists in the kind of quantities that you can’t do so already? 
 

 

[Evil Eye]

I've always found fliers in 40K (outside of Apocalypse) to be a bit silly, really, albeit largely down to immersion/fluff reasons. Even a slower jet like, say, a Gloster Meteor would fly over a standard 40K battlefield so quickly that even putting them on the board for a single turn would require them to slow down to stall speeds. So when you have Eldar and their "makes the SR-71 look like a snail" jets, the idea of them being physically present on the board at all is laughable. VTOL aircraft are a different story (I'm actually OK with the Valkyrie for this reason as it's essentially a helicopter/Harrier hybrid) but for actual dedicated "fast" aircraft, they'd be better represented as just a set of rules for strafing/bombing runs.

 

Of course, GW wants to sell those minis, and to be fair I love me some aircraft. But I feel like they don't really belong as a mainstay of lists.

[sairence]

It doesn't matter how good your AA units are, if the opponents planes can remove a vast chunk of your army with their planes before the AA gets a chance to be active. And that's exactly what happened before the limit. Didn't matter if you had guns capable of dealing with air units, they simply removed your ability to either score anything or kill anything for the rest of the game before those guns could remove fliers. And none of your suggestions change that.

 

I do like the idea of separating transports from combat planes. I'd probably do it by changing the limit to 2 units and then taking away the ability to squadron up from any plane without transport capacity and with significant firepower. That way they stay limited to 2 models, while dedicated transports with limited damage capacity fan be taken up to 6.

 

 

 

[OldWherewolf]

16 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

But as Jorin said in his post, those AA units suffer against non-flyers. Basically flyer heavy lists force you to either spec hard into dealing with them (thus leaving you vulnerable to non-flyer lists) or have no real way of dealing with a flyer heavy list.

1000% Yes!

 

Can you imagine a 6-man strong terminator blob that turn 1 is in my DZ, turn 2 in your DZ (and can't be screened), turn 3 on the opposite board edge, all while being -1 to hit and can't be charged, with enough firepower to pick up any 1 unit while pretty much ignoring LOS?  That's why at the end of 7th edition flyer spam was *THE THING*. 

 

Any good TAC list has to deal with GEQ, MEQ, TEQ/Armor in some combination of fast or durable (generally trading speed for durability).  Flyers exist outside that scope, and add a 3rd dimension to what a TAC list has to deal with, and it can't.  That's why jet/bikes are strong, but can be dealt with, as most fly/flyer/biker units have been reduced to the MEQ/TEQ level.  It's also why Hernken bikes are so nasty, they're fast TEQ+.  Most flyers are in that TEQ/Armor level (T7, ~3+ save), but extreme mobility.  Now, if you could drop flyers down to, say MEQ level, then they wouldn't be a problem.  T5/T6, 4+?  Now they're not flying LRBTs.  

[MedicMike0708]

I just want to be able to run Scion air cav. The list is not over powered, it’s technically challenging to use, it’s fun fluffy and thematic. Make whatever rules you need to prevent an alpha strike that makes the game unfun for everyone, but it’s literally why I bought scions, and the fluff around the army describes that tactic as their primary use. 
 

I get preventing min/maxing and trying to prevent the game from devolving into who can take more planes but I really wish GW would stop using global restrictions to fight faction specific problems.

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, MedicMike0708 said:

I just want to be able to run Scion air cav. The list is not over powered, it’s technically challenging to use, it’s fun fluffy and thematic. Make whatever rules you need to prevent an alpha strike that makes the game unfun for everyone, but it’s literally why I bought scions, and the fluff around the army describes that tactic as their primary use. 
 

I get preventing min/maxing and trying to prevent the game from devolving into who can take more planes but I really wish GW would stop using global restrictions to fight faction specific problems.

Whilst I do agree (though personally I'd take it a step further and would like GW to stop releasing "compulsory" patches altogether and focus solely on adding new content to the game rather than rewriting what already exists), depending on your local group/opponents it shouldn't be too difficult to negotiate over whether you're going to pay heed to that restriction surely? That is the beauty of tabletop games; if you don't like a mechanic you can just ignore it, no need to install serverside mods like on a videogame.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

The more I think about this the more I think they should just scrap the flyer rules. Just make them all vehicles with the fly rule, mix them into heavy support, fast attack,  and dedicated transports and be done with it. They're never really going to work with scale of the game anyways so just make it easier. Probably would be good for the AA units because most of those units suck, and should be reworked anyways.

[Slave to Darkness]

6 hours ago, Jorin Helm-splitter said:

The more I think about this the more I think they should just scrap the flyer rules. Just make them all vehicles with the fly rule, mix them into heavy support, fast attack,  and dedicated transports and be done with it. They're never really going to work with scale of the game anyways so just make it easier. Probably would be good for the AA units because most of those units suck, and should be reworked anyways.

Could knock the armour down on them a bit as well, not every flyer has to be a flying tank. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 1/2/2023 at 2:33 AM, sairence said:

It doesn't matter how good your AA units are, if the opponents planes can remove a vast chunk of your army with their planes before the AA gets a chance to be active. And that's exactly what happened before the limit. Didn't matter if you had guns capable of dealing with air units, they simply removed your ability to either score anything or kill anything for the rest of the game before those guns could remove fliers. And none of your suggestions change that.

 

I do like the idea of separating transports from combat planes. I'd probably do it by changing the limit to 2 units and then taking away the ability to squadron up from any plane without transport capacity and with significant firepower. That way they stay limited to 2 models, while dedicated transports with limited damage capacity fan be taken up to 6.

 

 

 

And that’s why I said every AA unit should get the same rule as the new hydra that lets you shoot at any flier coming in from reserve in your opponent’s turn. You get to shoot them before they can do anything at all.