How to remove flier restrictions

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 1/2/2023 at 3:31 PM, Evil Eye said:

Whilst I do agree (though personally I'd take it a step further and would like GW to stop releasing "compulsory" patches altogether and focus solely on adding new content to the game rather than rewriting what already exists), depending on your local group/opponents it shouldn't be too difficult to negotiate over whether you're going to pay heed to that restriction surely? That is the beauty of tabletop games; if you don't like a mechanic you can just ignore it, no need to install serverside mods like on a videogame.

I hate this argument because at that rate why even have any rules or restrictions at all?

 

Yes we all know we can agree to ignore any rule we want, but again not everyone has a group they’re familiar with and people who aren’t familiar may not want to throw out a game wide rule/restriction for a stranger. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 1/1/2023 at 6:45 PM, Evil Eye said:

I've always found fliers in 40K (outside of Apocalypse) to be a bit silly, really, albeit largely down to immersion/fluff reasons. Even a slower jet like, say, a Gloster Meteor would fly over a standard 40K battlefield so quickly that even putting them on the board for a single turn would require them to slow down to stall speeds. So when you have Eldar and their "makes the SR-71 look like a snail" jets, the idea of them being physically present on the board at all is laughable. VTOL aircraft are a different story (I'm actually OK with the Valkyrie for this reason as it's essentially a helicopter/Harrier hybrid) but for actual dedicated "fast" aircraft, they'd be better represented as just a set of rules for strafing/bombing runs.

 

Of course, GW wants to sell those minis, and to be fair I love me some aircraft. But I feel like they don't really belong as a mainstay of lists.

I agree for dedicated strike/fighters they don’t really need to be in the game, and my annoyance is that air cav style lists are not OP, and yet they’re restricted.

 

i don’t see myself getting more than 1 SR, but I think it’s a stupid restriction for them and valks (I’m sure other factions have transport aircraft as well)

 

[jarms48]

On 1/1/2023 at 3:05 AM, OldWherewolf said:

I can't agree on lifting the flier restrictions.  It's too much alpha-strike capability, and alpha-strikes are really bad for the game (IMHO). 

Rumour is new CA book will force all flyers to start in reserves. Meaning all alpha strike potential is gone.

[Evil Eye]

17 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I hate this argument because at that rate why even have any rules or restrictions at all?

 

Yes we all know we can agree to ignore any rule we want, but again not everyone has a group they’re familiar with and people who aren’t familiar may not want to throw out a game wide rule/restriction for a stranger. 

Honestly, I maintain 40K (and wargames in general but 40K especially) really doesn't work without a familiar opponent/group. If you're only playing pickup games with no opportunity for negotiation, advance planning or something a bit more exciting than a simple out-the-book scenario, you're missing out on most of what makes the gaming side of the hobby enjoyable. Pickup games are fun for learning the ropes but treating them as the norm has done significant damage to the game IMO.

[sairence]

17 hours ago, jarms48 said:

Rumour is new CA book will force all flyers to start in reserves. Meaning all alpha strike potential is gone.

 

No, it just gets moved to a guaranteed turn 2 alpha strike, if fliers go unrestricted again.

[sairence]

21 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

And that’s why I said every AA unit should get the same rule as the new hydra that lets you shoot at any flier coming in from reserve in your opponent’s turn. You get to shoot them before they can do anything at all.

 

Except that's not a unit rule, it's a strat, meaning you can use it once per turn. Only of limited use when the opponent brings in multiple at once.

 

And while the Hydra has a very nice profile now, I don't think it'll 1-shoot most fliers one go, meaning they're still a threat.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

Honestly, I maintain 40K (and wargames in general but 40K especially) really doesn't work without a familiar opponent/group. If you're only playing pickup games with no opportunity for negotiation, advance planning or something a bit more exciting than a simple out-the-book scenario, you're missing out on most of what makes the gaming side of the hobby enjoyable. Pickup games are fun for learning the ropes but treating them as the norm has done significant damage to the game IMO.

Yes everything is better when you have friends to do them with but that’s not always how the world works for everyone 

1 hour ago, sairence said:

 

Except that's not a unit rule, it's a strat, meaning you can use it once per turn. Only of limited use when the opponent brings in multiple at once.

 

And while the Hydra has a very nice profile now, I don't think it'll 1-shoot most fliers one go, meaning they're still a threat.

Couldn’t remember if it was a rule or a strat.

but the hydra will likely bracket its target utilizing that strat, so the threat still exists but it will be greatly reduced

[jarms48]

9 hours ago, sairence said:

No, it just gets moved to a guaranteed turn 2 alpha strike, if fliers go unrestricted again.

 

Doubtful, as it's much more restrictive. 

 

- "set up wholly within 6" of any battlefield edge (not enemy battlefield edge or in enemy deployment zone). Cannot be set up within 9" of enemy models."

- "AIRCRAFT can be set up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" from the enemy when they arrive from Strategic Reserves."

 

Which is very easy to zone out, and they can't move once they arrive. If you take a ton of flyers you'll likely not be able to deploy them all. Any that you do deploy will likely have to be done in your deployment zone.

Edited January 5, 2023 by jarms48

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

@Inquisitor_Lensoven - I think the Hydra argument is a really weak one for your desired goal of removing flyer restrictions. If all one of the better AA options can accomplish with stratagem support is bracketing a flyer, then you can't let people run 6 because the other five are going to be in great shape.

 

I really think they need to rework flyers from the ground up, and they should consider just making them work like other vehicles. Storm Ravens were fine in 5th so were Valkyries just make them skimmers again. 

 

 

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The Hydra argument is weak indeed. There’s good reasons for the restriction.

[jarms48]

6 hours ago, Jorin Helm-splitter said:

@Inquisitor_Lensoven - I think the Hydra argument is a really weak one for your desired goal of removing flyer restrictions. If all one of the better AA options can accomplish with stratagem support is bracketing a flyer, then you can't let people run 6 because the other five are going to be in great shape.

 

I really think they need to rework flyers from the ground up, and they should consider just making them work like other vehicles. Storm Ravens were fine in 5th so were Valkyries just make them skimmers again. 

 

As I stated above, the reserve rules themselves kill them.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

@jarms48 - I agree that the rumored changes would hurt flyers badly, and would make the air cav armies that the OP wants the restrictions lifted for impossible. Heck the new universal detachment also does that.

 

That doesn't change the fact that AA sucks in this game, and the new Hydra rules are an example of why those units aren't deterrents. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jarms48]

The problem with AA was and always has been lack of stopping power.
 

Pre-8th edition the average flyer was AV12 and the standard AA weapon was S7 AP4. Meaning it took 5’s just to glance and you got no bonus on the vehicle damage table. Meaning it took 3 Hydras to kill 1 with glancing hits alone, less if you were lucky on the penetration dice. 

 

Post-8th edition the problem is similar but also different. Now the average toughness is 7 which means 4+ to wound, but the average AP is -2, meaning they still get a 5+ save. The other issue is wounds, most have 12-14 wounds. Meaning it takes around 2 9th edition Hydras just kill a Valkyrie. Though on the flip side, at least everything has a decent chance to hit a flyer now. Which does even it out a bit. 

[Emperor Ming]

and the main problem with the Hydra is that autocannons have been left in the dust, in the 9th weapons creep, they are just rubbish